Bullying at Church

[MorningStar]

My oldest son went to his first Scout Camp a couple weeks ago and he came home in a pretty good mood, but he had a lot to share that really upset me. He did at least earn three merit badges.

Since he became a Deacon, a few of the boys have given him a pretty hard time and it has taken all of my restraint not to go in there and yell at them. They did end up splitting the quorum, which has been helpful, but they're all together at Scouts and campouts. When he started passing the sacrament, he looked like any other boy and was doing fine. A couple weeks later, he started acting like a robot. My husband and I asked what was going on and he said a few of the mean boys told him, "You aren't supposed to look at people!" He would pass it to the bishop and stare straight ahead, the bishop would smile at him, and he wouldn't make eye contact.

After acting like a robot, the boys told him, "You were still looking at people!" So, we brought this up with one of the leaders and he had a talk with him about who he can ignore. He was doing fine. Still, it infuriated me that they would treat him this way over the sacrament of all things. His first night at Scouts, one of the boys kept punching him for no reason and he got pretty upset about that.

At one of the campouts, several of the boys were playing with bug repellant and lighters. One boy told him, "If you tell anyone, I'll kick your ---." I called the boy's mom and she was awesome. I said I almost decided to call him myself and tell him, "My son told me about the lighter and bug spray. Do you want to come kick his --- now or should I talk to your parents first?" She ended up asking me to come over and give him a talking to, which I did. She specifically wanted me to say, "If you lay a hand on my son or threaten him again, I will call the police." She really does want me to call the police if it happens, but she wants a heads up first. He has a pretty troubled background, which I didn't know about. I was kind at first and thought maybe he would fess up and apologize, but when he denied it, that's when I got very firm with him. I said, "Your parents know you threatened my son. Do you want them to think you're a liar too?" I ended on a positive note, telling him I want him to have a happy life and that he can decide at any time to make good choices. He cried after I left and confessed everything, then he apologized that night. His mom was amazed because it usually takes him a few days to admit to things.

His mom said he needed something that might get him back on track and was hoping that would be it, but he ended up stealing a boy's money at Scout Camp, buying lots of matches from the Trading Post, and burning himself setting them all on fire. After that he took his pocket knife and stabbed my son's bottle of root beer, cutting himself pretty badly where he had just burned himself. What the heck?! I am really worried about his urges to play with fire and I don't know if he knew the bottle belonged to my son or not.

While my son was using a urinal, someone threw a lit match at him, but he didn't see who it was. He didn't think it was that kid because he didn't think he was around at the moment. My husband said when he was at Scout Camp, someone threw a lit match at him and set his pants on fire, but it was mutual stupidity between friends.

While going to the mess hall, the boy who kept punching him at Scouts was bumping up against him and telling him, "You're in my way! Get out of my way!" He did that repeatedly and my son said, "Don't touch me." He just mocked him, "Don't touch me!" Another boy stood there snickering, also from our ward.

That boy was also mooning the kids repeatedly, which he would do as soon as a leader would turn their head. This was beyond mooning though. He pulls his pants down to his ankles so everything is exposed and spreads his cheeks.

Another boy was also mooning everyone and also unzipped his pants, laying his genitals on the table where two boys were playing chess.

The last 10 minutes of Scout Camp, another boy decided it would be funny to grab my son's crotch. When my son's friend saw that, he punched the kid in the crotch hard. He started to double over and asked, "What did I do?" He said, "You KNOW what you did!"

I came home from vacation to hear the delightful news that multiple boys brought their cell phones after they were told not to and their parents were told not to let them bring them. They were using them to look at porn. Thankfully, my son didn't see it.

The bishop has been out of town and a few of the trouble makers are also gone. The YM pres. and bishop's counselor are going around to the boys and their parents to ask what everyone witnessed for themselves and are assuring us although it's taking a while, there are going to be consequences and a parent meeting about behavior at all of their meetings. I'm sad for my son, but I feel like he is going to survive just fine. I am sadder for these boys. I watched quite a few boys in the ward I grew up in go downhill and they never came back.

The day the boys got back from Scout Camp, we went over to a friend's house to talk to them about dog sitting. My husband waited in the car while I went in with the kids and the mooner was playing in the street with his friends even though his parents had been told about his horrible behavior. He then mooned his friends knowing my husband was sitting right there. I'm told his mom isn't ready to hear about his misbehavior. Some other parents with troubled boys have an attitude of "boys will be boys".

We're still waiting to have our talk with the leaders. I'm going to let them know that if these kids get to go next year, my son will be going with another troop. I believe in forgiveness, but I also believe in consequences. I think they should lose the privilege of going since they clearly have no respect for the rules or their leaders. They were disrespectful all week and some of them should have been sent home on day 2. There were only 2 leaders there all week. Others came and went. My husband wanted to go, but he had already arranged to volunteer at Cub Camp all week and by the time they needed him (due to people bailing), it was too late to get the time off from work.

A few friends and relatives have suggested maybe we should move out of the ward because of this situation and my son being the favorite target, but it's not my style to run away. If we feel inspired to move, then we will. As for now, I have given my son permission to pound anyone who touches him. He's so sweet, I don't know if he ever will. If the parents don't find it necessary to discipline their kids for this crap, then I'll have to involve the police the next time one of them decides to hurt or grope him.

My son has never been bullied at school and he went there for 7 years. Go figure.

[annewandering]

Something is wrong. Is there an abuser around? This often happens when someone is sexually abused. Perhaps one of the boys is abused and pulling in other boys with his acting out? Whatever is going on needs to be investigated and taken care of. This is not normal behavior.

[MorningStar]

There are multiple issues going on and some of them have had some pretty major problems in their families. A couple of them - I have no idea what their problem is except for their parents failing to discipline them, but you never know what's happening. Years ago I was horrified to see two boys on the news who were in our ward. They were confronting their coach who ended up abusing them and other boys. Disgusting man. Their family moved away for a fresh start.

[NeuroTypical]

Ah, Morning. Have you fallen on your knees and thanked God for the precious gift of good communication between you and your son? When this crap was happening to me in middle school, telling my parents was either a waste of time, or counterproductive. (I'm assuming that he's not trying to play or manipulate you with these stories into giving him something he wants.)

You can tell your son, that the morons he has to be around now, will for the most part eventually grow out of their moronic stage. Most of them will actually turn into decent people of one sort or another - maybe a decade from now. But he's stuck with them for now. Even if you all moved somewhere else, you'd find it there too. Maybe not in such conspicuous amounts, but it would be there.

If you don't have one already, I'd recommend a good martial arts dojo that focuses on a good blend of physical conditioning and practical self-defense. My favorite is Krav Maga, but lots of things will work (except for TaeKwonDo).

[Dravin]

My husband and I asked what was going on and he said a few of the mean boys told him, "You aren't supposed to look at people!"

I know there is a history here, but on the face of it that's not horrible advice. Now it could have been given horribly (you put the exclamation mark on there which makes me think rather than being a friendly heads-up we're looking at being chastised), but I personally do my best not to look at people (that is to say focus on them it's hard to pass something to someone without looking at them in some manner) when I pass the sacrament, not because I'm a robot (there are good and bad ways to work with such advice) but because I don't want people to think I'm taking note of if they're taking the sacrament or not.

[MorningStar]

Thank you for your perspective! We do have pretty open communication in our family, which has helped us avoid trouble and at other times is just hilarious. He is starting middle school and I have been thinking that he needs to get into shape so he will either be able to take someone down if needed or look like he isn't that easy of a target. He's not a tiny kid, but he has a very nice nature and comes across as naiive, but he's actually very mature for his age. He comes home from a campout and I ask him, "What was your favorite part?" He says, "Hanging out with the adults." A friend up the street has hired him to help them move their stuff and he's all excited to take them out for frozen yogurt. He also knows it isn't cool, but he always kisses me good bye, even if he's just going to class at church. He doesn't care who sees. He already has a sense that what these boys think about him doesn't matter, but he doesn't love feeling physically threatened or violated. My husband has been concerned with him not fitting in with some of the boys, but he seriously has no desire to do so. We do have quite a few nice boys too, thank goodness!

I agree. If we moved, there would probably be more of the same. If not, some boys might move in later who would find him an easy target. I heard that girls are even meaner to girls. Yeah, I can't wait to deal with that one.

[Vort]

I don't know what's going on, exactly. I know the general situation, but I am not sure if or how it is being dealt with. I know that the situation is pretty well-known around the ward, and MANY people are upset about it. What is going to happen, I do not know. This kind of thing has the potential to split our ward apart, which no one wants to see. We don't want to drive away boys who are having problems. But many in the ward have the attitude that our FIRST duty is to protect those kind, decent, good boys (read: your son) from the bullies (read: you know who).

In this situation, I want to figure out how to be a uniter and not a divider. I want to act like a grown-up. But for however much my opinion counts, I am not willing to sacrifice the well-being of the "good boy" or "good boys" in the interest of the others.

When I was in high school, a kid came up and punched me in the nose, causing my nose to bleed. I was quite a bit bigger than him, so I held him down (basically bleeding on him) until he "gave up". The result? We were both suspended for fighting. I guess my bleeding on him was just too aggressive of me.

In retrospect, I have no shame in having been suspended. But I am galled by the cowardice of the principal involved -- and the teacher. How come no one had the courage to stand up and say, "Hey, wait a minute, Tim punched Vort in the nose, not vice versa"?

Whatever. My point is, I will not be a party to such evil. I don't particularly want to see Brother and Sister X's son shunned and drummed out of his quorum, but he AND HIS PARENTS should most certainly be forced to face up to what he did and not just sort of sweep things under the rug.

I am not directly involved, because I am not in YM and have no sons of deacon age. But I will be talking to my own sons when they get back from their current trip and to the HPGL when he gets back, and you may depend on it that they will understand exactly what I think about things.

[MorningStar]

I know there is a history here, but on the face of it that's not horrible advice. Now it could have been given horribly (you put the exclamation mark on there which makes me think rather than being a friendly heads-up we're looking at being chastised), but I personally do my best not to look at people (that is to say focus on them it's hard to pass something to someone without looking at them in some manner) when I pass the sacrament, not because I'm a robot (there are good and bad ways to work with such advice) but because I don't want people to think I'm taking note of if they're taking the sacrament or not.

I can understand that. You don't want to stare at people like you want to know if they are taking the sacrament or not, but he was only glancing like anyone else. These comments were coming from the boys who are consistently jerks, so they weren't being helpful. Then when he definitely wasn't looking at anyone, they told him he was still looking at people.

[Vort]

I can introduce you to a local judo coach (who, coincidentally, is a long-inactive Mormon). I do not think fighting is the best way to solve problems, but I absolutely guarantee you that after six months of serious judo training, your son will beat the living crap out of any of the boys who give him trouble.

[skippy740]

Morning,

Your son's experience sounds a lot like mine when I was growing up and went to a scout camp. My family called these boys "The Sons of Mosiah"... well, "pre-conversion".

The next year, I didn't go to scout camp, but the same boys picked on another kid and I heard all about it when we were all summoned into the Bishop's office.

My family moved that year - not for reasons directly related to this, but we did move.

Sorry to hear about your son's experience. While "boys will be boys"... there is something wrong here.

[MorningStar]

Thank you, Vort. I am really having a hard time with this and I want a good outcome for everyone, but I am really, really frustrated that we got specific emails not to let these kids bring their cell phones and they were brought anyway. I'm baffled as to why these boys have cell phones with Internet in the first place. I have worked so hard to protect my kids from pornography and it makes me want to scream that they might be exposed to it in this way. I'm so grateful my son didn't see it.

I feel like I can't even talk to one of the parents because they will blow me off. I have been blown off by parents before, that their boy is just being a boy. If I hear that it's not a big deal, it's not going to be pretty and it will divide us. So I'm waiting to talk to our leaders before I even approach it because I don't want to be divided either.

[Vort]

By the way, your son's talk was one of the best youth talks I ever remember, and especially from a deacon. I loved it. How much help did he get from Mom?

EDIT: On consideration, my previous posts are inappropriate for a public board. I'm going to erase them. Just realize, Morningstar, that many know of your situation, sympathize with you, and think very highly of deacon Morningstar.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Vort

[rameumptom]

Sadly, this inattention that so many LDS parents give to their children is destroying the next generation of Mormons. We are only one generation away from not existing as a Church.

These parents are dooming their children to misery. I've come to the conclusion that parents who neglect their children do not really love their kids. They just placate them, so they don't have to deal with them.

[MarginOfError]

If I were to find any evidence of this kind of behavior in my troop, the offenders would immediately be sent home and would likely be asked not to return. Expelling a boy from a troop is a little harder in the Church, but if I couldn't expel them, I would insist that one of their parents come on any trip on which their boy will be present. The boy would share a tent with their parent and would be in the presence of their parent the entire time.

There is no place for that kind of behavior in scouting, in young men, in the Church, nor in humanity. If you don't see appropriate action taken within a very short time frame, I would strongly recommend that you find a different troop. When people take too long to address issues like these, it too often suggests an unwillingness to confront the issues, which usually translates into the issues persisting.

[Guest]

Thank you, Vort. I am really having a hard time with this and I want a good outcome for everyone, but I am really, really frustrated that we got specific emails not to let these kids bring their cell phones and they were brought anyway. I'm baffled as to why these boys have cell phones with Internet in the first place. I have worked so hard to protect my kids from pornography and it makes me want to scream that they might be exposed to it in this way. I'm so grateful my son didn't see it.

I feel like I can't even talk to one of the parents because they will blow me off. I have been blown off by parents before, that their boy is just being a boy. If I hear that it's not a big deal, it's not going to be pretty and it will divide us. So I'm waiting to talk to our leaders before I even approach it because I don't want to be divided either.

I'm a mother of 2 boys, so I can say this with authority - Exposing your genitals is not, and I repeat, NOT, boys just being boys. First of all, exposing your genitals at Scout Camp is cause for that kid to be immediately released from Scouting. If I was in your ward it would be a giant uproar that would have the potential of getting to a General Authority if not addressed by the parents and Ward/Stake Leadership immediately. I don't see how dividing a ward will address this problem. We have a 17-year-old in our ward that is not allowed to attend social activities after he got caught showing porn off his computer and exposing his genitals when the combined YM/YW was held at his home.

And I know you think the parent of that kid was very nice or whatever to let you address the matter with her kid. But, that was not your responsibility. That was HER responsibility as the parent.

And I know that your kid is a nice kid, a gentle kid. But, there are times when a kid needs to avoid social pitfalls to avoid being an easy target. Having a tween kiss their mother in public is one of those things. Yes, as mothers it is super sweet. But it is unnecessary. And in the school yard, you kiss your mother, more than likely, you're going to be teased at best, and bullied at worst. My kid kissing me - I wouldn't be worried. I have a 10-year-old who is the "popular kid" - him kissing his mother would cause all the other kids to think kissing mothers is super cool. My 10-year-old wouldn't kiss me in public anymore though. But, if I had a kid that was getting targeted, I would advice him not to bother with kissing me. We have our hand-signal for "I love you" - it's a special thing in our family. So yeah, the I love you signal is better than the kiss if your kid needs the comfort of expression before heading off to class.

And lastly, my kids go to Gracie Barra Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I recommend it to anybody. Martial Arts training is not just self-defense training. It's self-confidence training. A child has a certain persona that other children sense when he has the confidence to take care of himself. He would have a higher chance of actually not having to be in a situation where he has to use his martial arts training. Another important thing you learn in Martial Arts is to not panic in any situation. If you ever get in a situation where you get bullied or kidnapped, etc., your training kicks in and you won't just deck a guy as a panicked reaction. You get to think through the situation to come up with the best solution maximizing your strengths and minimizing your weaknesses against the given situation. A school yard bully may not need to end up in fisticuffs when walking away is an alternative.

Edited August 1, 2012 by anatess

[Vort]

PS Please do not move out of the ward. We love you.

[estradling75]

My wife and I both had issues with the other youth in the church while growing up...

So I guess with our oldest just having returned from summer camp for the first time we were very aware of what could happen. (Ok we have always been watching but camp is different from the week to week meetings)

We asked questions of our son and everyone else. We looked at all the pictures and anything else we could think of to find out how things went. Lucky for us all signs point to the idea that the camp was successful, and while the boys were boys (including ours) none appeared to cross the line (like morningstar's group did).

I know that I would want to know if my kids were the ones misbehaving and hurting others.

But beyond that as for advice I really don't have any... I just have an interest because one day my wife and I might find us in a similar situation

[Guest]

PS Please do not move out of the ward. We love you.

You're in the same ward???

Vort - you're usually a very no-non-sense, hit the nail squarely on the head type guy. I'm fairly confident this would soon be addressed with you being the standard bearer. Your ward will soon be put to rights.

[Guest]

My wife and I both had issues with the other youth in the church while growing up...

So I guess with our oldest just having returned from summer camp for the first time we were very aware of what could happen. (Ok we have always been watching but camp is different from the week to week meetings)

We asked questions of our son and everyone else. We looked at all the pictures and anything else we could think of to find out how things went. Lucky for us all signs point to the idea that the camp was successful, and while the boys were boys (including ours) none appeared to cross the line (like morningstar's group did).

I know that I would want to know if my kids were the ones misbehaving and hurting others.

But beyond that as for advice I really don't have any... I just have an interest because one day my wife and I might find us in a similar situation

It's another reason why I have a job. It gives my husband freedom to take time off from work to attend things like Scout Camps. He attends them with my boys. Always. Now, my older kid will be a Boy Scout soon. So he'll have 2 scout activities to attend to. I'm fairly certain he will continue to attend all Scout Camps or off-ward-building scout activities.

[Bini]

Morningstar, sounds like your son has a lot of inner strength putting up with that crap without losing his cool! And what an awesome friend he has, sticking up for him like he did! I think you got some great suggestions, and I hope things will settle down soon, and that appropriate consequences will be made.

[MorningStar]

By the way, your son's talk was one of the best youth talks I ever remember, and especially from a deacon. I loved it. How much help did he get from Mom?

EDIT: On consideration, my previous posts are inappropriate for a public board. I'm going to erase them. Just realize, Morningstar, that many know of your situation, sympathize with you, and think very highly of deacon Morningstar.

Thank you! He had quite a bit of help because we got back from vacation on Friday and he was asked to give it, but I thought his delivery was great. Once again though, it was upsetting that my first thought was, "What if those boys make fun of him after he gives it?" So sad that that even crosses my mind and it was a concern for him too, but luckily hardly anyone was in his class that day. Only the nice boys.

I think I missed one of your other posts, but you can fill me in later. :)

[Vort]

I think I missed one of your other posts, but you can fill me in later. :)

Probably the one where I offered to introduce you to my old judo coach... :)

[MorningStar]

Anatess, I totally hear you. My son is funny because I don't expect him to kiss me good bye, but he will not get out of the car until he gives me and his sister a hug and kiss. Haha! Yeah, it probably makes him look weak, but no one at school has ever bothered him. He'll be running late, but he still gives me a kiss while I'm yelling, "Go go go!!!!" Physical touch is definitely his love language.

Vort, we will try hard not to move out of the ward. Yes, Vort and I are in the same ward and therefore I know his real gender and what his freaky eyes look like in person.

[MorningStar]

Morningstar, sounds like your son has a lot of inner strength putting up with that crap without losing his cool! And what an awesome friend he has, sticking up for him like he did! I think you got some great suggestions, and I hope things will settle down soon, and that appropriate consequences will be made.

Oh, when I heard his friend punched that kid in the crotch, I laughed off and on all day. I asked my son why he didn't punch him and he said, "I didn't have time to! He did it too fast."

[annewandering]

There really is something wrong there. Might be wise to see whats going on.