Secede

[Traveler]

I honestly can't tell if you're a secessionist or just soul-crushingly pessimistic.

EDIT: Perhaps this is the root of the Tea Party's secessionist movement: a belief that the USA has somehow become a horrible country that is utterly doomed and has no future.

For last year we would have to cut just over 57% of all our government programs to balance the budget and this year we have increased our spending so far by over a trillion dollars. Even the most optimistic estimates project that by the end of the next presidential term that the cuts required will be close to 66% which is 2/3 cut in spending. We will have to throw a lot more than granny under the buss to even come close to balancing the budget. There is no greater threat to American freedom now or ever in history than our increasing national debt.

Some thoughts. Should we attempt, with similar results, another stimulus because of a double dip recession; the spending to debt ratio could reach 80% by the end of the next presidential term. This would put the USA in a position where the payment on debt would exceed current tax revenues.

Currently we have a treaty with Taiwan that if Taiwan is invaded by China that we will stand as allies with Taiwan to repel China. One big problem – right now today if we were to attempt to honor that commitment – we would have to borrow the money from China to help defend Taiwan. In fact to honor any commitment in the Middle East, including the continuing of foreign aid, we will have to borrow the money from China. Has anyone researched China’s policies in the Middle East to balance that against what is going on right now?

The day of the TEA Party concepts having an impact is over. That opportunity train has left the station. Secession may be the only possibility left to maintain the ideals of freedom defined in the constitution. And that window may not remain open as long as the TEA Party option was viable.

Oh there is another option – we could sell off our natural resources. Coal, petroleum, natural gas and other minerals and agriculture and in essence become an economic structure similar to district 12.

The Traveler

[Guest]

My claim results from seeing a lot of pro-secessionist posts on news sites I usually associate with the Tea Party: For example, teaparty.org (this link), Infowars, theblaze, etc. I apologize if it seems like I'm trying to assign secession as an official stance of the Tea Party. It's at the very least a stubborn fad within the movement.

Uhm... you're linking news sites. Just because they cover certain news stories doesn't mean it's part of their movement. For example - CNN.com is a news site - they talk about secession too. Doesn't mean CNN is secessionist...

[LittleWyvern]

Uhm... you're linking news sites. Just because they cover certain news stories doesn't mean it's part of their movement. For example - CNN.com is a news site - they talk about secession too. Doesn't mean CNN is secessionist...

Well, yeah, but it's the combination of

1) Reporting the secessionist movement, and

2) Adding positive commentary -or- arguing secession is the right path forward.

CNN does report on the secession movement but doesn't do step 2. The sites I link to spend much of their time on step 2.

[Just_A_Guy]

I agree with Traveler - the country has deep, deep financial problems; and no one's willing to make the cuts it will take to fix them (this talk about

is a red herring - it will accomplish virtually nothing).

If the federal government defaults on its debts it will be widely seen as having broken faith with its citizenry, and secession will seem a lot more legally viable. (I still think it would be utterly stupid from a practical standpoint, but arguments about "constitutionality" and "honoring the law" evaporate kinda quickly when you have a government that decides it doesn't have to do what it was once legally bound to do).

[Guest]

Well, yeah, but it's the combination of

1) Reporting the secessionist movement, and

2) Adding positive commentary -or- arguing secession is the right path forward.

CNN does report on the secession movement but doesn't do step 2. The sites I link to spend much of their time on step 2.

Like I said... if a Tea Party candidate - or a Tea Partier, for that matter - says they are for something (say, pro-life, anti-gay-marriage, pro-secession) - they're not saying it as a Tea Partier... they're saying it as a ... Republican, maybe.

Remember, you can be a Tea Partier and be a Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Martian... if you believe in the Taxed Enough Already agenda.

[applepansy]

I have not read through the whole thread.

My hope is that our Congress and Senate will understand the depth of the dissatisfaction the American people are feeling towards their government.

Breaking up the union is the wrong thing to do. Together we stand. But states need to exercise their rights. The federal government is not the supreme law of our land.

[jerome1232]

The federal government is not the supreme law of our land.

We tried being a confederacy, it didn't work. In a federal system the federal government is the supreme law of the land. I do however believe we do way, way to much at the federal level, much more needs to be left to each individual state. Like ObamaCare for example, I believe bits and pieces of it may work out great implemented at state level adjusted to the states unique situation, but not as a blanket federal law.

[Traveler]

I agree with Traveler - the country has deep, deep financial problems; and no one's willing to make the cuts it will take to fix them (this talk about

is a red herring - it will accomplish virtually nothing).

If the federal government defaults on its debts it will be widely seen as having broken faith with its citizenry, and secession will seem a lot more legally viable. (I still think it would be utterly stupid from a practical standpoint, but arguments about "constitutionality" and "honoring the law" evaporate kinda quickly when you have a government that decides it doesn't have to do what it was once legally bound to do).

The idea of defaulting on our debt is the same option as having a balanced budged. No one will lend the USA money if we default, which means we will not be able to borrow any more money to fund pet programs. If we started doing this last year there would by a 57% cut across the board in all programs. Every program not cut that much would mean other programs are cut even more. I have not found one person the voted for Obama that would agree to any program cut by 57%.

We could tax the rich into poverty and that would not make up even 20% of the money we had to borrow last year to run our country. The problem is that hardly anyone realizes how bad the debt problem is. Everybody thinks that it really will not hurt them! I honestly think many LDS with a lot of other Christians think G-d will save us. Never in the history of mankind has G-d saved a nation that would not heed the warnings of his prophets - never.

When our prophets have warned about getting out of debt- that warning was not just to LDS - it was to the leaders of nations as well.

Here is another thought - does anyone realize that in the ancient world Babylon was a banking power that loaned money. The scriptural warning to come out of Babylon is a warning to get out of debt. What I cannot believe is that so very few are taking the warning seriously. Our prophets have warned that getting out of debt is as important as getting on the ark in the days of Noah.

We must ask ourselves what side of the debt national question are you on? What are we willing to do to stop federal borrowing? Are we willing to flee Babylon? To get out of Babylon? Are we willing to secede from Babylon? Are we willing to even entertain the thought?

The Traveler

[LittleWyvern]

Like I said... if a Tea Party candidate - or a Tea Partier, for that matter - says they are for something (say, pro-life, anti-gay-marriage, pro-secession) - they're not saying it as a Tea Partier... they're saying it as a ... Republican, maybe.

Remember, you can be a Tea Partier and be a Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Martian... if you believe in the Taxed Enough Already agenda.

I view the Tea Party as more than a sticker you put on your already existing political affiliation. Sure, it started as an anti-tax movement, but it's a much more complicated movement than that now. The Tea Party is now it's own political affiliation, encompassing things such as nationalism, paleoconservatism, libertarianism (however weird that sounds when religious conservatives try to play along), etc. Therefore, I don't think it unfair to assign positions (or at least trends) to the Tea Party movement.

[EarlJibbs]

I dont think it will happen. Or more likely, the US Government would not let it happen. It does send a strong message however if the majority of a state support becoming their own nation.

[NoxNullaEgetDeumPerfectum]

Even as a symbolic gesture of petitioning to secede is reckless. There were people before us who fought and died to make these United States, this Union. Sure our goverment has done some things we disagree with, perhaps even oversteped there jurisdiction a little. But secedeing is not a solution. Its running away from the problem like a coward. What this country needs is to counter our problems together. Put aside politics for the common good of the people.

If you believe there is evil at the highest of levels, let it trip over itself. Then revealing itself.

And this movement(the tea party or anyhting close) has also picked up alot of racists. Ive seen it all over public social sites. Its a movement I do not want to affilliate with. I am also unsure of our goverment, and the far left movement. Both have become really extreme. I do think we can do much more together than split. This just shows you how divided we are, and unwilling to even work together.

My position is not lukewarm either. So dont disregard me becuase I seem to not have chosen a side. It takes time to make sense out of things. None of us can predict the future and what side is right. Those who wrap themselves in the flag and claim to have god on their side can be very dangerous.

I am all for freedom, justice, and the pursuit of happiness. The problem I have with these movements is freedom for whom? All of us? Surely by the rhetoric being said by both sides, somone is bound to suffer.

[Vort]

I agree with Nox. At some point, Americans might become so totally perverse and evil that they drive the righteous out from among them. At that point, they will surely be swept off, without doubt. Until then, threatening "secession" is just a childish rant, confirming the Left's portrayal of conservatives as immature.

[Traveler]

I agree with Nox. At some point, Americans might become so totally perverse and evil that they drive the righteous out from among them. At that point, they will surely be swept off, without doubt. Until then, threatening "secession" is just a childish rant, confirming the Left's portrayal of conservatives as immature.

Is this what the L-rd suggested that Moses tell Israel (citizens of ancient Egypt) and Pharaoh (the divinely appointed leader of Egypt)? Or was the childish rant concept the advise given to Pharaoh by his trusted advisers?

Just as a side note - anyone know what was the tax (percent) that Pharaoh issued against the "rich" of Israel that the scriptures considered as making slaves of Israel?

The Traveler

[NoxNullaEgetDeumPerfectum]

"If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." (Abraham Lincoln, Lyceum Address, January 27, 1838)

Some of the people who are for such measures of seceding have agreed with mass expulsion of our illegal immigrants in this country. I do not think that is right. I also do not think Moses would cry ''let my people go'' and then after get rid of millions in his own ranks, much of whom may be living a lawfull life.

The Church supports an approach where undocumented immigrants are allowed to square themselves with the law and continue to work without this necessarily leading to citizenship.

In furtherance of needed immigration reform in the United States, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints supports a balanced and civil approach to a challenging problem, fully consistent with its tradition of compassion, its reverence for family, and its commitment to law.Immigration: Church Issues New Statement

[bytor2112]

And this movement(the tea party or anyhting close) has also picked up alot of racists.

The Democratic Party ( the party that labels and categorizes races and then agitates to attract votes) has a lot of racists. The Occupy Movement attracted it's fair share of racists as did ANSWR. Racism exists and is not exclusive to the right, I dare say it exists in far greater numbers on the left.

Edited November 17, 2012 by bytor2112

[skippy740]

If one is looking for racism... they will find it. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[bytor2112]

"If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." (Abraham Lincoln, Lyceum Address, January 27, 1838)

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and to form one that suits them better. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can, may make their own of such territory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any portion of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority intermingling with or near them who oppose their movement.

Lincoln on the floor of Congress, 13 January 1848

Congressional Globe, Appendix

1st Session 30th Congress

[bytor2112]

"If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." (Abraham Lincoln, Lyceum Address, January 27, 1838)

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and to form one that suits them better. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can, may make their own of such territory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any portion of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority intermingling with or near them who oppose their movement.

Abraham Lincoln on the floor of Congress, 13 January 1848

Congressional Globe, Appendix

1st Session 30th Congress

[Just_A_Guy]

Sigh . . . this is bad. This is very, very bad.

[LittleWyvern]

You know, they could just renounce their citizenship and move to a more conservative country nearby, like... uhh...

Alaska?

[Just_A_Guy]

Nah. Every time conservatism builds something desirable, libs just follow you there (generally fleeing the ill effects of their own failed policies) and wreck everything. Witness the New Yorkers flowing into Florida, or the Californians going . . . pretty much everywhere.

[Traveler]

...

Some of the people who are for such measures of seceding have agreed with mass expulsion of our illegal immigrants in this country. I do not think that is right. I also do not think Moses would cry ''let my people go'' and then after get rid of millions in his own ranks, much of whom may be living a lawfull life.

...

I think you need to review your bible history a little more carefully. What did happen after Moses cried ''let my people go'? They all got together and walked into the promised land, holding hands and singing Kumb Bi Ah? Or was there a separation? Indeed who did go to the promised land?

I believe the point is that we do not separate by throwing the bums out. It has always been the case the G-d leads his people away. This is almost always done by what is called a refiners fire in the same manner that precious metals are refined and made pure.

If it was a simple matter of the saints gathering somewhere - that would be what would be going on now. When the L-rd separates his people the wicked do not follow because it really does not appear to be fun and appealing. Those that love money the most will follow the path of money and wealth. This would indicate that the path of the saints will not be paved in gold.

It is not about economy or money as much as it is about religion, freedom and trusting in G-d. But I am beginning to believe that all things are happening for the good of the saints - not the wealth of the Saints.

The Traveler