Why is porn a serious problem? (thread split)

[mnn727]

It is a serious problem which our GA's have counseled us about.

ok, so rationally (and yes, I'd like a serious explanation), why is porn a serious problem? ie what problems does it cause?

[skippy740]

I recommend starting a new thread for that question so we can keep this one on topic.

[Backroads]

ok, so rationally (and yes, I'd like a serious explanation), why is porn a serious problem? ie what problems does it cause?

From the opinion of Backroads only...

--It causes chaos and contention in the home. You might say "oh, that's because we've all been told to hate porn", but it seems the only alternative is "You must accept porn no matter how you instinctively feel about it". To say "porn isn't wrong" is to invalidate the feelings of anyone who feels uncomfortable or even threatened by it--regardless of whatever they were taught. It also causes family members to hide things from each other.

--It places the physical body far above any other human quality and we are commanded not to give into the natural man.

--It says the sexual relationship between spouses isn't good enough, once again leading to contention and hurt feelings in the home.

[skippy740]

It feeds LUST not love. LUST has a never-ending appetite. Pornography, like drugs, CAN lead to more promiscuous activity such as having affairs, seeking prostitutes, desire to include others in the bedroom or even experimenting in homosexual acts. There are cases where pornography does lead to child sexual abuse.

No, not all men go that far... but it is sewing the seeds. You reap what you sew.

It PERVERTS the ways of the Lord and continues to create a divide between spouses that says "you're not enough". It is the beginning, the 'chink in the armor' that, if not corrected, could lead to more serious acts and consequences.

[Backroads]

Sorry, I had been typing while you posted the "new thread" suggestion.

Porn also leads to other problems--maybe not as horrific as those skippy theorized. But there is certainly disharmony in the home when one spouse holds porn over his partner's feelings.

Parter 1: I am not comfortable/happy/spiritually alive/secure in our relationship/etc when you use porn.

Partner 2: There is nothing wrong with porn, so I am going to disregard your feelings.

NOT OKAY.

If there is nothing wrong with porn, Partner 2 has no real reason to stop using it. Yes, s/he should certainly be respecting the partner, but if it's okay, Partner 2 has every right in the world to justify it. This can lead to other problems.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Backroads

[skippy740]

That's the first time I ever did that - split a thread. Worked out well so we can keep the other thread and this one on topic.

[Vort]

ok, so rationally (and yes, I'd like a serious explanation), why is porn a serious problem? ie what problems does it cause?

It makes the pornography consumer spiritually deaf and blind.

[Backroads]

That's the first time I ever did that - split a thread. Worked out well so we can keep the other thread and this one on topic.

skippy, you are the bestest thread-splitter ever!

[Windseeker]

From The Marriage and Religion Research Institute

KEY FINDINGS ON THE EFFECTS OF PORNOGRAPHY

THE FAMILY AND PORNOGRAPHY

•Married men who are involved in pornography feel less satisfied with their conjugal relations and less emotionally attached to their wives. Wives notice and are upset by the difference.

•Pornography use is a pathway to infidelity and divorce, and is frequently a major factor in these family disasters.

•Among couples affected by one spouse's addiction, two-thirds experience a loss of interest in sexual intercourse.

•Both spouses perceive pornography viewing as tantamount to infidelity.

•Pornography viewing leads to a loss of interest in good family relations.

THE INDIVIDUAL AND PORNOGRAPHY

•Pornography is addictive, and neuroscientists are beginning to map the biological substrate of this addiction.

•Users tend to become desensitized to the type of pornorgraphy they use, become bored with it, and then seek more perverse forms of pornography.

•Men who view pornography regularly have a higher tolerance for abnormal sexuality, including rape, sexual aggression, and sexual promiscuity.

•Prolonged consumption of pornography by men produces stronger notions of women as commodities or as "sex objects."

•Pornography engenders greater sexual permissiveness, which in turn leads to a greater risk of out-of-wedlock births and STDs. These, in turn, lead to still more weaknesses and debilities.

•Child-sex offenders are more likely to view pornography regularly or to be involved in its distribution.

OTHER EFFECTS OF PORNOGRAPHY

•Many adolescents who view pornography initially feel shame, diminished self-confidence, and sexual uncertainty, but these feelings quickly shift to unadulterated enjoyment with regular viewing.

•The presence of sexually oriented businesses significantly harms the surrounding community, leading to increases in crime and decreases in property values.

•The main defenses against pornography are close family life, a good marriage and good relations between parents and children, coupled with deliberate parental monitoring of Internet use. Traditionally, government has kept a tight lid on sexual traffic and businesses, but in matters of pornography that has waned almost completely, except where child pornography is concerned. Given the massive, deleterious individual, marital, family, and social effects of pornography, it is time for citizens, communities, and government to reconsider their laissez-faire approach.

[Windseeker]

I subscribed to Porn-Harms on Facebook and had to block the stories because they were too heartbreaking.

Outside of individuals and their families there is an endless stream of victims from this wicked industry. Whether or not they were enticed by greed or hopelessness or forced I fear there will be a reckoning for everyone that contributed to this great evil by even clicking on a link out of curiosity.

[mnn727]

Windseeker, thanks for posting that but I have to reject it. As some of you know I am an adult convert and both my wife and I viewed porn in the days before we found the gospel. I am sorry, while some of those may be true in some cases, but not one of those are true in every case. Its been years since we viewed it, and I certainly won't go into any details but both my wife and I feel it (at the time) enhanced our sex lives.

My only real objections to it are:

1. it portrays unrealistic women and men (models/airbrushed/photo-shopped)

2. Many times the women involved are involved due to abuse, either currently or in their past.

I just feel sometimes we make a big deal out of it because we are told to make a big deal of it.

having said that I do agree that some men do develop a problem with it and I think in SOME cases its because we make such a big deal out of it that they reject not only the teachings about porn but that may lead some to reject the Church too.

Edited November 13, 2012 by mnn727

[Guest SquidMom]

Porn also desensitizes us. It paints an unrealistic picture of what sex between 2 loving people should be, Once you've watched the 'soft stuff' alot, you need somethig more intense to 'hit your button.' Before you know it your watching crazy stuff you never even would have imagined and even THAT doesn't do it for you anymore. How can a single person ever satisfy you with 'normal' lovemaking, once you have gone to that level? Sorry, but alot of us self respecting women would never do half the stuff you can find online. Why stay faithful to us if that is what you now desire? Porn is the tiny wedge that wiggles in deeper and deeper and drives two people apart.

However, as my husband was a virgin when we started dating, I can attest to it's educational value, also...

[skippy740]

I don't think it would be 'kosher' for me to laugh for your post... :)

[slamjet]

having said that I do agree that some men do develop a problem with it and I think in SOME cases its because we make such a big deal out of it that they reject not only the teachings about porn but that may lead some to reject the Church too.

In my experience, I would change "some" to "most."

[annewandering]

It changes the focus of sexuality to a 'me' 'get' thing not a way to show and give your spouse love. It becomes all about me.

The fact that we, if we use porn, are asking others to commit serious sins for our enjoyment is not something we should forget either. Some are not even in it willingly. I do not want that on my conscience.

It is all about me in every way. We dont even seem to mind slavery and debauchery if it gives us a thrill.

What could be more against God's will?

And that doesnt even go into the if you lust in your mind it is adultery.

[Backroads]

mnn, I see what you mean.

But I don't feel it's safe to put porn in the category of "it's only good/evil in the eye of the beholder".

[Just_A_Guy]

Remember, too, that ours is a religion that basically teaches that the faithful will one day have immense power over others - as a "priest", "king", or even "god", depending on which scripture you point to. What happens when you get a "god" who views mortals as mere playthings who exist for his own amusement - to be created, destroyed, or controlled like puppets on a whim?

It isn't just that porn debases that which is sacred, or that sex generally entails the power to create life which power should not be trifled with, or that I have made a covenant of absolute fidelity to my spouse. It's about what I do with power over others when I get it - even in a relatively small way. Hopefully that's a lesson that I learn and apply to all of my interactions with other people.

[MorningStar]

We had a fireside called "Women of Worth" where one of the authors of Confronting Pornography came to speak to us. He listed these things as possible symptoms of a pornography problem:

• Loss of interest in sex (during the Q&A, he answered, “Yes, it can lead to erectile dysfunction, but can be managed with therapy.”
• Increased interest in sex – insatiable sexual appetite
• He starts introducing uncomfortable things in the bedroom. He adds that you have the right to say no to anything you want to and shouldn’t imitate whatever he is asking for.
• He is diminished socially, emotionally, and spiritually
• He becomes isolated and withdrawn, on the computer frequently and late at night, is irritable, impatient, and especially mistreats his wife, behaving as if she can do no right.
• Unexplained absence and financial transactions
• During intimacy, he is rigid, rushed, and without passion

I would call those things pretty serious.

[Guest]

My only real objections to it are:

1. it portrays unrealistic women and men (models/airbrushed/photo-shopped)

2. Many times the women involved are involved due to abuse, either currently or in their past.

.

I would think that, even rejecting Windseeker's arguments, this alone should be more than enough to keep you from something you're using just to enhance your sex life. There are all kinds of things that can do that that don't involve abuse and degradation. If no one supported an industry that does those things (even if it's just "sometimes"), the industry would not exist, or at least it would change.

[Dravin]

My only real objections to it are:

1. it portrays unrealistic women and men (models/airbrushed/photo-shopped)

2. Many times the women involved are involved due to abuse, either currently or in their past.

So what would be your position on pornography that uses realistic portrayals and doesn't use exploited individuals?

[hardtoguess]

Certain kinds of pleasures are immoral. Porn is one of them. End of story. The negative side effects if any are practically beside the point.

I remember when porn had to be obtained in rough looking convenience stores and was harder to find on VHS.

A lot of you are frogs who've been slow boiled.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

My only real objections to it are:

1. it portrays unrealistic women and men (models/airbrushed/photo-shopped)

2. Many times the women involved are involved due to abuse, either currently or in their past.

The second one is reason enough. Absolutely reason enough.

I work with teenage sex offenders, and talk to a lot of survivors and yes, porn is often involved.

That also is reason enough. You say that doesn't happen in every case, true, but you don't know before you start if you will be the one affected that way. It's not worth the risk.

[mnn727]

So what would be your position on pornography that uses realistic portrayals and doesn't use exploited individuals?

I guess my whole point is that we make such a big deal out of it, that when a wife finds out that her husband looked at porn - no matter whether its 1 image or multiple, Sports Illustrated Swimsuit girls or raunchy hardcore images, that she has been taught to think 'I married a pervert, the marriage is over (or at least in big trouble)' and that's really not always the case.

I just don't believe its always a problem and that's someone with actual experience talking.

[MrShorty]

To round out the discussion (not that I necessarily agree with many of these points), here are some arguments/observations that I see coming from the other side of the porn issue:

1) On addiction: porn addiction (and other sexual addictions) are not universally accepted. The American Psychiatric Association's DSM list is expected to drop any mention of sex addictions from the newest list, continuing a trend of de-emphasizing sexual addictions on recent DSM lists.

Among those who accept sex/porn addictions as real, many say that we overuse the term/diagnosis of addiction. In the extreme, it often sounds like we believe that every porn user is addicted or will inevitably become addicted in short order.

Stating that porn is bad because it is addictive is not universally accepted. It also follows the Word of Wisdom model where we call for complete abstinence from something potentially addictive without allowing for responsible use. Are there any legitimate uses (education has been mentioned) for descriptions, pictures, and other depictions of sexual activity?

2) Many of the associations between porn and other evils seem to imply causation. Some these may need to be more rigorously studied before we can call them causative and not merely correlated. For example, how many divorces where porn use was a factor were caused by the porn use and how many were initiated because the spouse had decided that porn use was worse than adultery and a more justifiable cause for divorce?

3) On questions regarding desensitization and seeking harder stuff. Here again, I see some questioning of whether this is "inevitable" or not. Do porn users automatically seek harder and harder stuff, or do they experiment until they find what they like and stick with that? Our dialog around porn is centered on complete abstinence, but how do we feel about porn users who control/limit their use? Like with alcohol, we believe God calls for abstinence, but is there room in our dialog for someone to believe that God does not expect complete abstinence, but allows for controlled use?

4) On wives being offended by their husbands porn use. Some like David Schnarch would ask if the wife's offense is legitimate or a symptom of "emotional fusion." I've seen some suggest that our discomfort with men using porn is less about porn and more about our general discomfort with sexuality -- especially male sexuality.

5) On porn being fake. Lots of entertainment is fictional and not real. Even in non-sexual ways, we say that Hollywood generally does a poor job of reflecting "real" relationships. I've seen some women who say that they can distinguish between real and fake to justify some of the books they read. And yet men, who according to people like Mark Gungor are better at compartmentalizing, seem unable to separate the sex in porn and real sex.

6) On porn misusing the models/actors/actresses portrayed. Probably true in some cases, but in all cases? What about Hollywood or other legitimate movie makers and photographers who are "responsible" and could be certified as such? What about written or drawn porn?

While a lot of this might be about making porn more "normal" or "natural" it still doesn't justify it. A lot of what is normal or natural is still sinful. Many would say that some form of promiscuity/polygamy would be the normal model for human sexuality rather than monogamy. And yet God's commands are pretty clear that monogamy is what He expects, and we also believe that that includes abstinence from pornography.

I guess I'd like us to consider that some of these reasons may not hold up to rigorous scrutiny, or they may not prove to be universal reasons. Ultimately, the main reason for complete abstinence from pornography might be our belief that God has asked us to.

[Backroads]

I guess my whole point is that we make such a big deal out of it, that when a wife finds out that her husband looked at porn - no matter whether its 1 image or multiple, Sports Illustrated Swimsuit girls or raunchy hardcore images, that she has been taught to think 'I married a pervert, the marriage is over (or at least in big trouble)' and that's really not always the case.

I just don't believe its always a problem and that's someone with actual experience talking.

I'm wondering if further discussion among the church, beyond "don't look at porn!" would be beneficial.

In your opinion, what do you think would constitute a problem?