Breaking A Mormon Myth.

[Nate]

Im not asking this without a little research in advance but im coming up with a blank. So a fellow sister in Christ and I were talking about The Passion of the Christ and she was convinced through and through that because its "R" we should not see it. I know that there are already threads on this movie and im not bringing up another one on this topic. Here is the question. She said that Pres Hinkley was asked in regards to this movie and he replied " I stand true to my previous statement" in regards to not seeing R movies. I cant find anything on this and am convinced that this is another mormon myth in the making. Does anyone have any references that I can draw upon or maybe an obscure fireside that this comment was made?

[Serg]

Let me assure you, if all your decisions are based on what a (loved and cherished) but quasi-victorian wealthy anachronized leader tells you, I think Lucifer's plan worked concerning controling free will!

Please, let your choice of movies be one of your own, in fact , let all be of your own. Arrive at conclusions on yourself. Dont rely in another's life experience completely. Our leaders may serve as GUIDES not PATHS. Step in Christ's shoes, not on Monson's expensive ones, or anyone else's.

In my opinion, that movie has been the most persuasive of all in terms of it's purpose: There was a Christ, who DIED for you.

Watch it and enjoy it.LOL.

Regards,

[Nate]

I own the movie and have used it as FHE with the wife. I understand your comments and believe me I completely agree with you.

She said that Pres Hinkley was asked in regards to this movie and he replied " I stand true to my previous statement" in regards to not seeing R movies. I cant find anything on this and am convinced that this is another mormon myth in the making. Does anyone have any references that I can draw upon or maybe an obscure fireside that this comment was made?

Take no offence just lookin for a reference (if one even exists).

[Palerider]

The movie was rated "R" and I chose not to watch it..........just like I don't watch any movies that are rated "R"...........perhaps it was just a myth......

[Traveler]

Im not asking this without a little research in advance but im coming up with a blank. So a fellow sister in Christ and I were talking about The Passion of the Christ and she was convinced through and through that because its "R" we should not see it. I know that there are already threads on this movie and im not bringing up another one on this topic. Here is the question. She said that Pres Hinkley was asked in regards to this movie and he replied " I stand true to my previous statement" in regards to not seeing R movies. I cant find anything on this and am convinced that this is another mormon myth in the making. Does anyone have any references that I can draw upon or maybe an obscure fireside that this comment was made?

You may wish to consider the following link:

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Mag...plates$3.0

There are others if you search the LDS Churches web site concerning the media. When it comes to violence and the media there seems to be two arguments. The first: is the argument that violence in the media really has no effect on a person’s behavior. The second: is that violence in the media will have an effect of the behaviors of the persons that enjoy watching it.

My question is – if you do not enjoy violence, why entertain yourself with it? Just a note in passing on this subject – Joseph Goebbles (Hitler’s expert propaganda minister) stated that entertainment is the best method of brainwashing the masses because their opinions could be changed without them even knowing it.

Do I think that just because someone watches and enjoys violence in their entertainment that they are going to murder someone? Even if there is a connection I am sure there can be exceptions but I do not believe that violent entertainment is the best way we can entertain and occupy our own minds or the minds of our next generation. Like an automobile accident – I think we should make an effort to avoid violence – and that includes violence as entertainment.

The Traveler

[Nate]

Thanks for the link. This thread has divided into two differ discussions. R rated movies and what i'm trying to find, a mystery quote. The link helps with the R rated movies side which I agree but i'm looking for something more specific to the Passion of the Christ. Ii'mtrying to help this sister to stop believing everything she hears especially when its catering false quotes to gospel pprinciples I think maybe Pres Hinkley could say something to this degree but i'm looking factual not hearsay.

That was a good article though.

[StrawberryFields]

The Sundance Film Festival is going on right now in Park City Utah.

Last night on the news they talked about "Ratings board takes small steps toward change"

The Motion Picture Association of America is finally showing some give with regard to its movie ratings system, agreeing to open up the process a bit more and to give filmmakers more leeway in appealing its decisions.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/features/bal-t...tures-headlines

There was a movie that came out titled Saints and Soldiers which the movie maker objected to the "R" rating and he couldn't use examples of PG-13 movies to fight the rating. There may be some changes coming soon.

[Guest Rriverdude]

Let me assure you, if all your decisions are based on what a (loved and cherished) but quasi-victorian wealthy anachronized leader tells you, I think Lucifer's plan worked concerning controling free will!

Wow...you really believe that??? Don't let a Prophet of God influence your decisions, or you'll be following Satan's plan??? Is it just because he is wealthy, old, or you think Church leaders with revelation just don't know what they are talking about All of our decisions in my home are based on what the Prophet says. Remember, they will not lead you a stray.

[Latter Days Guy]

What's an R rated movie? In the UK I believe that it refers to hardcore porn, is that the same in the USA?

We also have the following film classifications:

U: Universal, anyone can go and see it.

PG: Anyone can go to see it but parents are advised it may be unsuitable for small children.

12A: You must be over 12 to see this.

15: Over 15 to see this.

18: Over 18 to see this.

[Nate]

Back to topic, does anyone have a quote or reference to that specific movie. I found an interview with the director of the Two Testiments or whatever its called on temple square but nothing from a General Authority.

[CrimsonKairos]

Probably a mormon myth. I don't see movies based on ratings, but on content and reviews. I've seen plenty of PG-13 movies that were more offensive to the spirit than some R movies. MPAA is hardly a scientific approach.

[Greenroom]

Its rated MA here down under which stands for Mature Audience. I stayed up and watched it one night and it really touched me. Made me wonder if it was really that bad for Jesus Christ? Did he suffer that much as showed in the movie? A normal human being could not have endured that much torture Im sure? The whippings he got were enough to make me turn my head away from the TV. Especially the whip with the hooks on the end of it! I passed out when I hit my thumb with a sledge hammer causing my nail to hang from a piece of skin. The pain was intence! It makes me feel so grateful that my older brother Jesus Christ has been through all he did just for me. Thats why I love him and want to see him again. But my bishop told us that he didnt want to see the movie as he can read it in the scriptures. He also said he would rather see a movie about his birth or resurrection. We celebrate his life and the knowledge that we know that HE LIVES.

By the way the movie was great but I wouldnt let my kids see it :)

[Brother Dorsey]

Its rated MA here down under which stands for Mature Audience. I stayed up and watched it one night and it really touched me. Made me wonder if it was really that bad for Jesus Christ?

It was worse.......as the real suffering he did was in the garden of Gethsemane when he took on the sins of the world!

Did he suffer that much as showed in the movie?

Physical suffering? I doubt it...I think Mel Gibson embellished the torture part of the film because mainline Christians somehow play down the suffering he did spiritually during the atonement in the garden and instead focus on his physical sufferings. ie: crucifixion

A normal human being could not have endured that much torture Im sure? The whippings he got were enough to make me turn my head away from the TV. Especially the whip with the hooks on the end of it!

And that is exactly how the film maker wanted you to react....to experience the physical torture....yes Christ had the power to stop his physical suffering and his spiritual suffering...but he did not as he was doing the will of the Father. One thing you have to remember his crucifixion was not part of the atonement, his physical suffering outside the garden was not part of the atonement....but, He had to be tortured and crucified and he had to die so he could fulfill the rest of his mission...to be resurrecteded!

I passed out when I hit my thumb with a sledge hammer causing my nail to hang from a piece of skin. The pain was intence! It makes me feel so grateful that my older brother Jesus Christ has been through all he did just for me. Thats why I love him and want to see him again. But my bishop told us that he didnt want to see the movie as he can read it in the scriptures. He also said he would rather see a movie about his birth or resurrection. We celebrate his life and the knowledge that we know that HE LIVES.

By the way the movie was great but I wouldnt let my kids see it :)

I liked the movie too....although it didn't center around his mission on Earth....it was more about his crucifixion and suffering torture....not much about the atonement or resurrection at all....and I won't let my children see it either. Way, way to violent....not much spiritual.

[prisonchaplain]

You may wish to consider the following link:

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Mag...plates$3.0

There are others if you search the LDS Churches web site concerning the media. When it comes to violence and the media there seems to be two arguments. The first: is the argument that violence in the media really has no effect on a person’s behavior. The second: is that violence in the media will have an effect of the behaviors of the persons that enjoy watching it.

My question is – if you do not enjoy violence, why entertain yourself with it? Just a note in passing on this subject – Joseph Goebbles (Hitler’s expert propaganda minister) stated that entertainment is the best method of brainwashing the masses because their opinions could be changed without them even knowing it.

I'm really having a hard time digesting the gist of this response. We're not talking about a teeniebopper hacker movie here, but The Passion of the Christ. The movie did so much to remind Christian believers of just how great the love of the Savior, and of our Heavenly Father. It was gut-wrenching and hardly enjoyable. But it was powerful, moving, and painfully inspirational. So, IMHO, the issues of violence and ratings a largely irrelevent--at least for adult believers. The one exception is that some people simply cannot get past the violence, to meditate on the meaning of the production. Such people would probably do better to forgo this movie.

Probably a mormon myth. I don't see movies based on ratings, but on content and reviews. I've seen plenty of PG-13 movies that were more offensive to the spirit than some R movies. MPAA is hardly a scientific approach.

Sounds like there is some discussion about the matter, but no clear-cut rulings. http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,590044701,00.html

Physical suffering? I doubt it...I think Mel Gibson embellished the torture part of the film because mainline Christians somehow play down the suffering he did spiritually during the atonement in the garden and instead focus on his physical sufferings. ie: crucifixion

I've read a medical description of the torture, and Mel seems to have gotten it right. See the following: http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/crucifixion.html

I liked the movie too....although it didn't center around his mission on Earth....it was more about his crucifixion and suffering torture....not much about the atonement or resurrection at all....and I won't let my children see it either. Way, way to violent....not much spiritual.

Gibson chose to focus on the passion--the suffering of the Christ. In a sense, this was the producer's meditation on this one painful incident in Jesus' life. I am thankful for what Mel has given us.

[Rosewood]

Ezra Taft Benson, “To the ‘Youth of the Noble Birthright,’ ” Ensign, May 1986, 43 lds.org

"not to pollute your minds . . . Don't see R-rated movies or vulgar videos or participate in any entertainment that is immoral, suggestive or pornographic."

D&C 58:18 And to judge his people by the testimony of the just, and by the assistance of his counselors, according to the laws of the kingdom which are given by the prophets of God.

D&C 1: 14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

[Nate]

Don't see R-rated movies or vulgar videos or participate in any entertainment that is immoral, suggestive or pornographic."

How is appreciating the Saviors Atonement immoral, suggestive or pornographic? Do you think that watching the Atonement as a premortal spirit which I know all of us did choose not to watch because it was "graphic in nature"? You can throw quotes of prophets all you want but if it helps you appreciate what Christ did for you than go ahead and partake, if it doesn't than as long as it helps others thats kinda the point. I could also argue on how the modern day prophets command us to learn more of Christ and to appreciate what he went through.

Don't see "R" movies, no problem because its a commandment and there is good principle behind it but dont deny yourself an experience but following the letter of the law.

Why is it rated "R"? If you want I can give you a link on an interview with Mel Gibson and the Director of The Testaments video, its a good perspective to have.

[prisonchaplain]

Quite the pun--don't get caught up with the LETTER of the Law (LETTER...R...GET IT?). BTW, as information, there is a federal law that says we may not show R-rated movies to federal prisoners. So, they get to watch Jerry Springer, and other such trash TV, but must forgo The Passion of the Christ and Schindler's List.

Just from hanging around here, I do get the impression that with the COJCLDS there are shades of interpretations. Not denominations--just nuances. Then again, I'd argue that most denominations are nuances of Christianity, as well. :-)

[CrimsonKairos]

From a cinematographer's point of view, The Passion was well-executed and shot beautifully.

From a disciple's point of view, I found the movie tiresome and not at all edifying. It was useful as a slap in the face so perhaps I'd have something to think about the next time I am tempted to sin (i.e. "Hey idiot, don't you remember what Christ went through for you?).

It is definitely for adults. I disliked the lack of emphasis of why Christ suffered at all.

[Rosewood]

6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.

So Mel Gibson is now our difinative authority on Christ? He's the one we're suppose to go to to learn about our Savior because he has a more perfect perspective than the prophets? Oh, why didn't you say so in the first place?

So if it was Adam's daughter's birthday and she really wanted that firstling the Lord would understand; He would say why deny her the experience just to follow the letter of the law?

So if your wife realizes she truely loves the hunk next door your ok with her consumating her love because why stand on formalities when a wonderful experience shouldn't be denied. And after all; God is Love, right?

[Nate]

Obedience is better than sacrifice. I encourage no one to do anything inconsistent with their faith. I believe in following the prophet. In 1986 President Benson told the Aaronic Priesthood, "We counsel you, young men . . . don't see R-rate movies or vulgar videos or participate in any entertainment that is immoral, suggestive or pornographic." Every prophet since has reiterated that inspired advice.

The doctrine of R-rated evolved in the 2001 Strength of Youth Pamphlet.

"...choose only entertainment and media that uplift you. Good entertainment will help you to have good thoughts and make righteous choices. It will allow you to enjoy yourself without losing the Spirit of the Lord. Do not attend, view, or participate in entertainment that is vulgar, immoral, violent, or pornographic in any way. Do not participate in entertainment that in any way presents immorality or violent behavior as acceptable."

This doctrinal document does not include any reference to R-rated movies or the MPAA rating code. The responsibility is no longer carried on the shoulders of the anonymous men and women who rate the movies in Encino California. It is squarely upon us.

We can no longer say, “R it is bad”. “PG-13 is OK.” We must apply a different standard. It is easy to define the criteria. It is difficult to measure ourselves against them.

This comes from

This is some good reading, a bit long but take a minute to read.

I copied this article from the International Discussion/ LDS Deep Doctrine in a thread relating to The Passion of the Christ.

[url=http://www.meridianmagazine.com/arts/040216Passionate.html]http://www.meridianmagazine.com/arts/040216Passionate.html

Passionate Choice

By Keith Merrill

Are you going to see The Passion of The Christ?

The decision is upon you. It opens in theaters February 25.

Mortality is little more than the endless process of making important

choices - and surviving the consequence. Your decision to see -- or not see -- The Passion of The Christ may ultimately itself be one of passion. Unless you've been in

a coma -- or care nothing for movies or popular culture --you know by now

that The Passion of The Christ is Mel Gibson's controversial feature film

that focuses on the last 12 hours of Jesus' mortal life.

I wrote about the film before I'd seen it. My perspective was professional.

See "Shared Passion".

This time I have seen the film. My perspective is personal. Word of the film

has spread primarily as a result of myriad private screenings with Christian

clergy, Jewish critics, selected media, high-profile hosts including,

Michael Medved, Bill O'Reiley, Opra and Paul Harvey. And from time to time

guys like me.

My face-to-face dialogue with Mel Gibson about his film and my own

efforts to portray the Christ in The Testaments was an exciting tale to tell

But I could not even discuss it with my wife. Before the screening, we

signed a confidentiality agreement with a promise to say nothing of our

experience, nor share our reactions in private or in press. The long silence

gave me time for the unforgettable images of the film to distill upon my

mind. It gave me time to incubate my feelings and measure them against my

understanding of the Savior. During the period of imposed silence, I gave

much thought to what I would eventually say to you here. My feelings are

conflicted. I wonder if I should write anything at all.

I was released from my "vow of silence" a few weeks ago. This is the moment

of truth. What do I tell you about the film? Do I recommend that you see it

or take it off your list?

Very little. Yes. No. Maybe.

The Passion of The Christ is much more than "only a movie." In

comparison to the movies of fantasy, escapism, hedonism, and even decadence

that dominate our popular culture it is much, much more.

As a motion picture, The Passion of The Christ is a brilliantly-crafted

piece of art. Gibson's enormous talent as director was evident in Braveheart

In this film he is even better. This film is distinguished by a personal

passion that transcends his earlier work in significant ways. Gibson's deep

belief in the Catholic tradition and the passion of Jesus is

evident in every frame.

I am grateful to Mel Gibson for his talent and his sacrifice. I am grateful

that he created this intense vicarious experience as an emotional supplement

in my quest to know the Christ and look upon his face. But that is me and

you must decide for yourself. It is not a film for everyone by any standard.

The controversy swirling about Gibson's film from its earliest beginnings

has been focused on four issues.

(1) No English is spoken in the film. The announcement that the dialogue

would be in ancient Aramaic with English subtitles shocked Hollywood

insiders and left audiences around the world trying to imagine the story of

Jesus as a foreign language film.

(2) The film is accused of being anti-Semitic. Jews and others have

condemned the film as "fanning anew the flaming plague of prejudice that has

afflicted the Jewish people for 2000 years." They express fears that the

film could actually result in bringing violence to Jews. They are wrong.

The Jewish community and anti-defamation league is fearful that the film

emphasizes the role of Jews in the death of Christ. They are right. The Jews

are depicted as culprits in the death of Jesus, but their fears ignore

historical reality. In the version of the film I saw, the role of the Jews

is not unduly "emphasized," but they are clearly and accurately implicated

according to the Biblical history.

(3) The film is extremely graphic in the depiction of the torture and death

of Jesus. Whatever other issues you may consider in your decision to see or

not see the film, it is important that you become fully aware of (a) the

intensity of the experience and the gripping, painful realism of the torture

and merciless treatment of Christ and ( Gibson's merciless graphic window

on those awful events. Your sensitivity - and tolerance --

to the graphic realism of the events surrounding the capture, trial, torture

and death of Jesus Christ as described in the New Testament must ultimately

be your primary consideration. For your and for your family.

(4) Mostly for Mormons. The film is rated R. Some of you have said that the

MPAA rating board has made your decision for you. "If the film is rated R, I

am not going." Others wonder how we can ever expect to depict with realism

the greatest of the Book of Mormon stories on the big screen without the

blood of battle - and the inevitable R-rating from the distorted "make love

not war" morality of MPAA - and not support films like The Passion of The

Christ.

Consider seeing the film only if you are sincere in your quest to gain

greater insight into the death of Christ. I say "death of Christ" because

that is what the film is about.

Consider seeing the film only if you seek a deeper and historically detailed

appreciation of the last 12 hours of a life that changed the world.

Consider seeing the film only if you can glean from the brutality of the

images a better understanding of the ultimate purpose of His life. Consider

the film only if you are confident it will engender good thoughts, inspire

righteous choices and allow you to retain the Spirit of the Lord. The

graphic nature of the images notwithstanding, nothing I saw deprived me of

the spirit of the Lord. To the contrary, seeing the Savior through the

eyes of his mother touched the deepest part of my soul.

People experience films differently. Some are enveloped and engaged. Some

are entertained. Some are objective observers. Some are consumed by the

subjective power and vicariously experience feelings and emotions otherwise

impossible. You must know thyself in facing the decision.

Frankly, I will never be the same. When the film concluded, this "invitation

only" gathering of "movers and shakers" in Washington, DC were shaking

indeed, but this time from sobbing. I am not sure there was a dry eye in the

place. The crowd that had been glad-handing before the film was now eerily

silent. No one could speak because words were woefully inadequate. We had

experienced a kind of art that is a rarity in life, the

kind that makes heaven touch earth."

I don't understand how you interperate that now i'm claiming Mel Gibson as our definitive authority, perhaps you could explain on that?

So if your wife realizes she truely loves the hunk next door your ok with her consumating her love because why stand on formalities when a wonderful experience shouldn't be denied. And after all; God is Love, right?

Other than being a little aggressive and using an analogy of my wife how does this correlate to watching a movie about the Atonement?

[Rosewood]

Sorry about being agressive, I get a little carried away. I'm very passionate (get it?)

We're responsable for our own choices and we can always use scripture to justify whatever we want to do. I just believe you're really streching. The Prophet said don't. I choose to stay on this side of the line. In the for the strength of youth pamphlet I believe they were saying sometines we shouldn't watch PG-13 or PG movies because they're not always apropriate, not that sometimes R is ok. But of course, it is always left to our agency isn't it?

I don't think all these words are going to change any of our minds on this one.

I LOVE war movies. I haven't watched one that was unedited in a long time. I miss some movies, but my heart feels light. Thats the trade off I made.

One of the first things I learned that stands out to me is; if any part of a true false question is false, then the answer is false. To me that applies to most things.

[Nate]

I just believe you're really streching. The Prophet said don't. I choose to stay on this side of the line

Hence the reason I posted this thread, is there anything that I can referees from a GA in direct correlation to this movie being it deals with the Savior rather than participate in entertainment

that is immoral, suggestive or pornographic

Then the question comes is this entertainment? Should it be viewed as educational? Would you watch a show on Discovery channel that documents a tribe which showed breasts of the women and view it as entertainment, probably not? If that same tribe had a movie made and it showed breasts now its R and you cant watch it? Of course not, its educational. What are we classifying this movie as? I'm not saying watch it cause its your choice and it should be personal. I just think that people are classifying this movie in the wrong category (entertainment) which we have guidelines from the prophet not to see "R". This show is not for children I agree but someone with a testimony, maturity and faith in Christ I feel will come out having a greater understanding of what actually came to pass for it was not pretty.

Just like how you cant accurately portray the battle of the bulge without it being realistic, how can you accurately portray what a crucifixtion is and what The Christ went through without it being realistic. Its only Mels interpretation for the events and I don't think its 100% accurate but you have to hand it to him for the attempt that he made.

[BenRaines]

I love having agency to choose.

Ben Raines

[Rosewood]

Don't see R-RATED MOVIES OR vulgar videos or participate in any entertainment that is immoral, suggestive or pornographic." He doesn't say that R-rated movies ARE pornographic; it doesn’t qualify them at all.

Is the passion a movie? Yes. Is it R rated? Yes.

Many people in the world have been crucified, many tortured, many betrayed. That's not the part of the atonement that benefits me. I feel the movie encourages a vision of a weak helpless dead Christ, not a living all powerful redeemer. It doesn't strike me as a testimony builder or a perfect portrayal of history nor was doctrinally accurate. We don't use the cross on top or our spire because we don't feel it's a good representation of who we worship.

It doesn't have to be 100% accurate, but it does have to be 100% not inaccurate.

Would I ever go see an R-rated movie? Well, I'd need a better reason than I've had so far.

[rosie321]

Many people in the world have been crucified, many tortured, many betrayed. That's not the part of the atonement that benefits me. I feel the movie encourages a vision of a weak helpless dead Christ, not a living all powerful redeemer. AMEN! It doesn't strike me as a testimony builder or a perfect portrayal of history nor was doctrinally accurate. We don't use the cross on top or our spire because we don't feel it's a good representation of who we worship.

I have to agree with you here. While I think we should be aware of and appreciate the intense sacrifice that Christ made for us. Focusing too much attention on the evil act. Of christ in pain and agony does not paint the whole picture. What Christ did for us was love beyond words. But he did it so we would not have to suffer as he did. Christ wants for us to have a hope and future. To turn from sin so we don't have to face the torment he did. He wants to spare us from it. So why would we want to watch each little detail? Men are that they might have joy. Thats a task in itself some days. By focusing in on His death only we miss out on the hope that is to come from it. We miss out on the true beauty of it all. If Christ had not risen our hopes would be in vain.

The Passion might be useful in helping some people to truly appreciate what Christ went through on their behalf. I don't know that thats a bad thing. But for some seeing it might do more harm then good. It may not help them to grow in the gospel.

While I do believe Mel Gibson did his best to portray what he believed to be true to what happened, One thing that troubles me is that in the intensity of it. the other half is missed. The important culmination of it all. Much attention is focused on christs sufferings but what about Christs resurrection? Its like the movie tries to shock people and leaves it there with only a little mention of the resurrection.

One of the things I love about the LDS church is that it normally only shows the resurrected christ. While I personally grew up with the symbol of the cross and and had never thought anything of it prior to the joining of the church, I do appreciate the focus being put onto the hopeful side of things. I don't think those who have crosses are automatically doomed or anything. God knows the hearts of man. Its just nice to see the resurrection side and not just at Easter. That God loves us despite our sins, is willing to call us his children, that He has done all that he can do to have us return to Him.... WOW

As far as remembering the Lords sacrifice, the sacrament does remind me of Christ sufferings and my duty to diligently to what's right. There is a price to sin. I'm not sure visually watching a representation of all the bloody details will really change the gratitude I feel or help me to better follow. For me it can get a little depressing to just be focused in on His death and sufferings. Everyone has to make the decision for themselves in the long run I guess...prophet or no prophet.