Do We Sugar Coat The Wow

[Nate]

We have all been in the situation that the "oh, you dont drink cause your Mormon" comes out and then that moment of "justification" comes out. Most LDS responds something to the effect of how medically its bad for you to drink or that the "tanic acid" in coffee hardens you GI tract or something to that degree. Why dont we stop the nutritional debates and just say "I dont drink because the Lord has asked his people not to through a modern day prophet.". Now I know that there are a lot of people who do respond like this but too many are almost ashamed of thier response. Whats up with that!? Has anyone else either seen this or done this and later said, "why did I say that"?

[Blessed]

That is GREAT, Nate. I have said before that I choose to follow the Lord's wisdom and that it is a "principle with a promise." Sadly, though, I have slacked off of WoW and I should get back to it. Thanks for the reminder.

[smilerlse]

I like what you're saying, especially because I know I do the health points a lot! I usually do it because my friends will be all: it loosens you up and makes you feel better and the one swig of wine a day clears up your arteries or whatever, but I always fail to affirm my spiritual belief.

Thanks :)

[Nate]

You have to be carefull going on the health points cause things like green tea are really healthy, now you argueing health instead of obedience to commandments. If in the WOW we were told not to eat 7-11 slurpies in a medium glass as crazy as it may sound so what. Why do we try justify why the Lord did this. Its good to have a rough understanding and not blind faith but as a whole we need to be BOLD in out proclimations. Carefull of overbearing and arrogance though.

[CrimsonKairos]

Your point is very well taken Nate. Agreed.

Remember, though, that the promise that goes with the principle deals with health benefits as well as spirituality:

18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.

I like your point, though, to wit: Don't obey the WoW just because it's healthy to; obey it because God gave a revelation to bless us and a covenant is a covenant.

[Outshined]

I'm with you Nate. Too often we try to rationalize reasons for abstaining without just stating that we are following our faith.

[prisonchaplain]

When it comes to coffee, you're on your own! :-)

But abstaining from alcohol is becoming a best-choice for many Christians. Here are my thoughts:

1. I want to be able to catch a taxi at the Minneapolis-St. Paul Airport, without any protests from Muslim drivers. :-)

2. Kings and priests are both encouraged to abstain from wine in the Old Testament. Since I believe I am part of a "royal priesthood," it makes sense for me to do likewise.

3. In Leviticus 19, priests who entered the Temple were required to have abstained from alcohol for a certain period of time. Since my body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, I want to keep it free from alcohol.

4. 10% of Americans are problem drinkers, and 40% of families are effected by problem drinking. Out of compassion for those who struggle, I want to set an example of total sobriety.

5. In the Last Days we are to be sober, watchful, ready, and filled with the Holy Spirit. Intoxicating spirits run counter to that program.

Bottom-line: While I do not condemn those Christians who drink moderately, total abstinence is the wiser course. It is the safest approach to a dangerous drug. And, in a society that struggles deeply with abusive drinking, it is the one response that requires no explanation.

[Nate]

PC, you a great perspective, even for a chaplin . Those are some good references. Question, does the AofG have a code of health towards anything other than Alcohol? Its good to see good sense coming from faiths. Here are some good do's and donts in our Words of Wisdom.

D&C 89: 5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—

11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be aused, only in times of winter, or of cold, or bfamine.

14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—

17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

So we just dont focus on the donts but also on the do's. Here is one that a lot of people dont think of as part of the WOW but I kinda think that it is.

D&C 88:124 Cease to be aidle; cease to be bunclean; cease to cfind fault one with another; cease to dsleep longer than is needful; retire to thy bed early, that ye may not be weary; arise early, that your bodies and your minds may be einvigorated.

[prisonchaplain]

PC, you a great perspective, even for a chaplin . Those are some good references. Question, does the AofG have a code of health towards anything other than Alcohol?

If your question is strictly about food, then no. On the other hand, there is a great deal of emphasis on spiritual and intellectual/emotional food as well. We are admonished to guard our hearts and our minds. Some of our members have given up on TV altogether. Like LDS, many of our people refuse to watch any R-rated movies, and a few even askew "moving pictures" completely.

Additionally, 'praying for the sick' is a prolific activity in our movement. We believe that there is healing in the atoning work of Christ--based on Isaiah 53 "By his stripes we are healed."

[Nate]

Thanks, I agree with all of that. I have 4 boys and the TV was on all the bloody time. I got so frustrated that I canceled our cable. Its great cause there not being desensitized "as much" and they go outside more(as much as you can near the Pugent Sound :) ).

I guess we can still work on you about coffee

[Dr T]

I guess we can still work on you about coffee

That was good Nate

[prisonchaplain]

Perhaps that would be the ultimate sign that your Church was true: if a non-LDS Seattlite could be convinced to give up coffee PRIOR TO conversion. :-)

[Nate]

LOL You should of seen me as a missionary in Malaysia and Sri Lanka, its considered a insult to refuse the tea when invited into a house which only happened maybe 15 times a day.

[Palerider]

Thanks, I agree with all of that. I have 4 boys and the TV was on all the bloody time. I got so frustrated that I canceled our cable. Its great cause there not being desensitized "as much" and they go outside more(as much as you can near the Pugent Sound :) ).

I guess we can still work on you about coffee

Nate.....I have to ask this question after reading all your posts on this thread.......not sure where you are from but isn't the word "bloody" considered a swear word. I know it is in other countries..... ....just curious not attacking.........

[Nate]

If taken as so I apologize. Habit from some friends from England. Im west coast raised and stationed in WA with the Army.

[Palerider]

If taken as so I apologize. Habit from some friends from England. Im west coast raised and stationed in WA with the Army.

I was only asking cause I served my Mission in England........ ....no offense taken....but keep in mind we do have many from other countries that might be offended by that....

[Nate]

Roger that.

[Maureen]

... and a few even askew "moving pictures" completely...

I have a friend growing up that was brought up Pentecostal, she is now the wife of a Pastor but their congregation is non-denominational. As Pentecostal though, she was not allowed to dance or go see movies. Very bizarre for my way of thinking, one of my first movies to see as a child was Mary Poppins. I can't imagine why a reasonable thinking adult would think that Mary Poppins was wrong to watch. Once I asked my friend if she could see a Charlie Brown movie at the theatre and she was not, but her mother religiously watched her Soap Operas on TV. Even as a child I knew there was something wrong with that picture. I find it odd how people make rules for themselves but their reasons for following them don't quite make sense.

But now my friend is an adult and has children of her own - and I know she allows her kids to watch movies and her husband does (and he's the Pastor) so I'm sure she does herself.

M.

[prisonchaplain]

Very bizarre for my way of thinking [banning attendance at movie theaters], one of my first movies to see as a child was Mary Poppins. I can't imagine why a reasonable thinking adult would think that Mary Poppins was wrong to watch. Once I asked my friend if she could see a Charlie Brown movie at the theatre and she was not, but her mother religiously watched her Soap Operas on TV. Even as a child I knew there was something wrong with that picture. I find it odd how people make rules for themselves but their reasons for following them don't quite make sense.

The thinking at the time was not to support or patronage the movie industry. Also, much as many t-totalers will not go into a bar to have juice, there was a feeling that the theaters themselves were somehow a less than righteous place for a truly devoted Christian to be found.

BTW, most Pentecostals are nowhere near that way of thinking today. Consider all the B-grade Christian movies that have come out in the last few years--nearly all of them are evangelical.

[Traveler]

There is something else to understand - that is the concept of covenant. I think it is nice that many follow ways because they are commanded to do so by a prophet. Is it possible for individuals to take this one step further? That is to establish standards on their own with out being commanded? What kind of a generation is it that must be commanded before they are willing to live by covenant?

I find it interesting that if someone makes a covenant not to drink caffeine products like soft drinks such as Coke or Pepsi that they are often ridiculed by those not willing to make such a covenant. And then there is the attitude that making such a covenant makes that person more righteous. Why can’t Christians respect the covenants of others without getting into a contest as to which covenant type is more holy?

If you do not have personal covenants – I suggest you think about it. If you do have personal covenants – I suggest you keep your covenants. Back when I served in the army I made a covenant concerning soft drinks because of an event that made a difference in my life and it has served me well. My wife does not have that same covenant (or reason) and it serves her quite well. The one thing we have learned is to honor and encourage each other in our personal covenants.

The Traveler

[Outshined]

There is something else to understand - that is the concept of covenant. I think it is nice that many follow ways because they are commanded to do so by a prophet. Is it possible for individuals to take this one step further? That is to establish standards on their own with out being commanded? What kind of a generation is it that must be commanded before they are willing to live by covenant?

I find it interesting that if someone makes a covenant not to drink caffeine products like soft drinks such as Coke or Pepsi that they are often ridiculed by those not willing to make such a covenant. And then there is the attitude that making such a covenant makes that person more righteous. Why can’t Christians respect the covenants of others without getting into a contest as to which covenant type is more holy?

If you do not have personal covenants – I suggest you think about it. If you do have personal covenants – I suggest you keep your covenants. Back when I served in the army I made a covenant concerning soft drinks because of an event that made a difference in my life and it has served me well. My wife does not have that same covenant (or reason) and it serves her quite well. The one thing we have learned is to honor and encourage each other in our personal covenants.

The Traveler

Wow, nice way to put it. It's true that honoring our covenants can only work for our good and strengthen us. B)

[Guest bizabra]

You have to be carefull going on the health points cause things like green tea are really healthy, now you argueing health instead of obedience to commandments. If in the WOW we were told not to eat 7-11 slurpies in a medium glass as crazy as it may sound so what. Why do we try justify why the Lord did this. Its good to have a rough understanding and not blind faith but as a whole we need to be BOLD in out proclimations. Carefull of overbearing and arrogance though.

BIZ: REALLY? If the prophet issued a decree that required CHURCH members to wear say, clown suits, you'd do it unquestioningly and declare boldy to your stunned co-workers that you were wearing this clown suit because you were being "obedient"? REALLY? Would it matter at what you were told to do, wear, say or eat? ANYTHING if it came from "the lord"?

That's silly!

[Outshined]

I don't follow the kosher laws, but never considered my Jewish friends silly...

[Guest bizabra]

I don't follow the kosher laws, but never considered my Jewish friends silly...

BIZ: Actually, 2 of my dearest and best beloved friends are jewish. We traveled to NYC with them a few years ago for a 2 week vacation. We stayed at his recently deceased grandmothers co-op. Although at the time they were not practicing the kosher laws, he asked us to follow them in her house, out of respect, even though she was now dead.

So, silly as they themselves acknowledged it to be, we did not mix meat and milk plates in the sink, we did not bring home leftover shrimp from dinner out, we did not buy bacon to cook when we shopped for groceries.

They have a real sense of humor about how silly the laws are. Which they are. However, not keeping kosher doesn't disqualify a jew for anything. It is not a requirement to entering any house of god. It doesn't bar a jew from participating in their religion. They do not justify it as being "healthy". My friends recognize it to be a test of devotion and sacrifice that can bring some closer to god, but not required for all. It was a way to set the people apart during the diaspora, to remind them of who they are as a people.

But it is very silly to not be allowed to eat beef stroganoff or bacon and eggs or to keep your dishes segregated in the kitchen. VERY silly!

[Outshined]

Silly to you; people often feel that way about the beliefs of others. I understand your view on that. It is not silly to the Jews I know; they take their religion seriously.