Struggling with this concept, could use advice!

[Olivesmom]

I'm considering joining the LDS Church and have been reading about the Church on and off for the past few weeks, so it is all still new to me. One of the ideas that sound strange to me is the whole prophecy thing, specifically in the WoW. I won't lie, I love my coffee drinks so I'm sure that's part of my motivation here's but Im having a hard time with the "no hot drinks" thing. First if all I fail to see that rationalization behind it. More importantly though, i struggle with accepting it (and the Wow as a whole) because it seems to me that it was one guy's idea of things and then he decided to make it law by saying it was a prophecy from the Lord.

When reading I came across something that stated Joseph Smith amd Emma were tired of having to clean up after the men who would chew and smoke tobacco so Joseph decided to have a rule against it. And later Joesph has a prophecy that upheld that decree. Well gosh, how convenient. Now the Lord bans it too. I don't know, it just seems all too self serving- which is how I feel about much of what Joseph Smith did.

Before anyone jumps all over me I will admit, I have been reading on anti sites. I also have been reading here and on other pro-Mormon sites. I can accept that Joseph Smith was a man, thus flawed at times. However, I just don't know if I can believe much or anything really, because it seems like Joseph Smith (and other church leaders) would use a testimony from God as a way to get what they wanted. The WoW, Kirtland bank scandal, polygamy?, maybe even Joseph's testimony in the first place? I'm just not sure. It seems all too easy to say that "God told me so".

The thing is though, I want to believe. I want to find a way for all of this to be explained. I feel very strongly that the LDS Church will save my family. I feel this so strongly that I'm almost at the point of saying none of this details matter because; the Church does good, will being me closer to God, cause us to act more Christ like, will save my husband and our marriage, and will strengthen our family. Those things mean more to me than the specifics of what Joseph Smith did, or how he did them. But then I get this nagging feeling. I want answers. I want this to all be explained so that I can wrap it all up neatly not only to appease myself, but the countless friends and family whom i expect we will take heavy criticism from.

Thanks in advance for your advice, I really appreciate it!

[Guest]

Have you prayed about it?

[prisonchaplain]

My own uncoverted guess is that you must first pray and determine if Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. If he was, then the prohibition on coffee and tea can simply be an act of obedience. Why don't Jews eat shrimp? According to one rabbi I know the answer is, "Because God said no." If you determine that he was not a prophet of God, then the WoW won't matter anyway.

[Olivesmom]

I have not prayed about it. I have given it lots of thought in an attempt to figure it all out.

I feel this unexplainable urge in my heart that the LDS Church is where we need to be. This feeling is new to me, I've don't know that I've ever felt it before. It almost brings me to tears, not in an upset way. It is hard for me to explain.

I will pray, BUT I think I still need an explanation. My heart is ready to accept all of this, but my head isn't.

[estradling75]

I have not prayed about it. I have given it lots of thought in an attempt to figure it all out.

I feel this unexplainable urge in my heart that the LDS Church is where we need to be. This feeling is new to me, I've don't know that I've ever felt it before. It almost brings me to tears, not in an upset way. It is hard for me to explain.

I will pray, BUT I think I still need an explanation. My heart is ready to accept all of this, but my head isn't.

What more would you need then God said no? While I understand that you aren't there in believing that yet. But assuming you get there do you really need a better reason?

[Anddenex]

I have not prayed about it. I have given it lots of thought in an attempt to figure it all out.

I feel this unexplainable urge in my heart that the LDS Church is where we need to be. This feeling is new to me, I've don't know that I've ever felt it before. It almost brings me to tears, not in an upset way. It is hard for me to explain.

I will pray, BUT I think I still need an explanation. My heart is ready to accept all of this, but my head isn't.

The main emphasis within the church is that we can receive personal revelation from God. I would read the Book of Mormon everyday with an open heart, praying to discover the truth for yourself.

One person I had the opportunity to teach, didn't get baptized while I was there. He was baptized 4 months later. I asked him at the beginning of this year, when I finally was able to reach him, what changed your mind. His response, "I finally did as you kept telling me -- I read the Book of Mormon sincerely."

In the Book of Alma, he prayed and fasted to know if these things were true.

Explanations will come, and some explanations will not come. The question really comes down to, "have you received a witness?"

Once a witnessed is received, we move forward despite unanswered questions, however I have discovered the Lord will answer questions in his own time and when our minds are ready to receive the truth.

I remember one time asking a question and praying about it. It was a year later when I finally received my answer.

Best wishes. Both my parents are converts to the church and I am truly grateful for their humility in accepting the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Olivesmom]

What more would you need then God said no? While I understand that you aren't there in believing that yet. But assuming you get there do you really need a better reason?

The reason "God said no" isn't enough is because often it seems like that prophecy or revelation was used to support a self serving idea or principle. I have a hard time believing when logic tells me that perhaps this person decided a testimony from God was an easy way to justify their desires.

[Wingnut]

Prisonchaplain speaks truth.

[Anddenex]

Olivesmom,

I believe, but could be wrong, the point estradling75 is making is that a prophet although a man is lead by God.

We have a promise that God will not lead us astray through his prophets and if a prophet seeks to input his own will, in disregard of God's will, that man will be removed from his post.

An example in the Bible is given of this when Ballam, was almost executed by the Lord's angel because he sought to curse Israel instead of blessing them as the Lord commanded.

As such, if we have a testimony, have received a witness that Joseph Smith was a prophet, then when acting as a prophet, and saying, "God said no," should suffice us -- because we can safely follow a prophet because God will not allow them to lead us astray.

I have a different sense of logic than you, for I don't see any logic in Joseph Smith's history explaining that he used his testimony from god to justify any of his desires.

I understand the anti-Mormon sites want you to believe this and are excellent in their words language.

[Guest]

Hi Olivesmom. When I was pondering that same question, I saw it this way:

In a scientific experiment, you first come up with a hypothesis, then you experiment to see if you can find evidence that your hypothesis is correct.

In most of scientific law, this is easy. Because the results of the experiment is usually measurable and repeatable by other scientists.

Religious laws are not as easy. Because of the concept of personal revelation. You can have the same hypothesis, the same research material, and come up with different conclusions.

For example: PrisonChaplain (Pastor for Assembly of God) and I (a Mormon) can read this verse:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And come up with completely different views of what God is. He believes that God and the Word (Jesus Christ) is one Being (substance) whereas I believe that God and Jesus Christ are two separate Beings. Yet we read the exact same verse.

So then, we we go to read the rest of the scriptures, everything becomes based on that one snippet of understanding. For PrisonChaplain - The Holy Trinity. For me - The Godhead.

So, how does this relate to coffee?

Well, simply this: Depending on the hypothesis that you are trying to find the truth of - you will find evidence that goes one way or the other.

For example: If your hypothesis is "Coffee is bad for me" - you can find tons of research to support that hypothesis.

If your hypothesis is "There's nothing wrong with coffee" - you can find tons of research to support that hypothesis too.

You can google all of that.

So, what is it that you are really trying to prove? That coffee is bad? Or that the prophet is terrible for requiring abstinence from coffee?

Here's my conclusion - I have tons of testimony that Joseph Smith is the true prophet of God. None of them involve coffee. So, when I am faced with the question of the coffee, I will go with the research that says Coffee is bad for me because God commanded that I should abstain from it as I believe Joseph Smith is a true prophet.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Olivesmom, I understand what you are saying...how convienent and all that. But there is another way to look at this.

God honors our free agency. He does not force information on us, we have to ask. Joseph Smith's First Vision was because he asked a question.

The Priesthood was restored because Joseph asked a question...

The Word of Wisdom because he asked a question...

It works that way in our own lives too. We can't receive a testimony of Joseph Smith, or even of God...until we first ask the question.

Question...then...answer. It's a good system. :)

Also I agree with Anatess. You can find science to support either position. In the wonderful new book, The God Who Weeps by Terryl and Fiona Givens...they talk about this. They say there is ample evidence against the belief in God, and there is ample evidence that God exsists. We have to chose which one we will believe.

They say that it must be this way. We don't have faith in gravity. You can't really doubt whether or not a thing will fall if you hold it out and release it. In order to exercise faith there needs to be an option to choose.

So it is in your hands to chose...question and then answer...or...justification.

I also second the advice...Pray about it.

[prisonchaplain]

If you want a hypothesis, I wonder if the WoW was instituted in part (whether by God or Joseph Smith) to create a physical manifestation of separation. God's people are always a separated kingdom. For the Jews kosher laws keep them separate from Gentile society in major ways. For LDS abstaining from coffee and tea do much to create distinction in both Western and Eastern societies.

As a humorous contrast, I am a pastor and have Scandanavian roots. So, in my spiritual tradition we have coffee first, then talk. See: First We Have Coffee: Margaret Jensen: 9781565074248: Amazon.com: Books

[estradling75]

The reason "God said no" isn't enough is because often it seems like that prophecy or revelation was used to support a self serving idea or principle. I have a hard time believing when logic tells me that perhaps this person decided a testimony from God was an easy way to justify their desires.

Let me simplify it then.... If God himself were to open open the heavens and tell you. "Olivesmom.. Don't drink coffee any more." Would that be good enough for you?

If it is then everything else is just a matter of degrees and learning how God is speaking to you... Which is what the missionaries and people of this forum are trying to lead you toward.

If it is not then nothing else really matters.

[Finrock]

Good Afternoon Olivesmom. Welcome to the forums! :)

Before anyone jumps all over me I will admit, I have been reading on anti sites. I also have been reading here and on other pro-Mormon sites. I can accept that Joseph Smith was a man, thus flawed at times. However, I just don't know if I can believe much or anything really, because it seems like Joseph Smith (and other church leaders) would use a testimony from God as a way to get what they wanted. The WoW, Kirtland bank scandal, polygamy?, maybe even Joseph's testimony in the first place? I'm just not sure. It seems all too easy to say that "God told me so".

The thing is though, I want to believe. I want to find a way for all of this to be explained. I feel very strongly that the LDS Church will save my family. I feel this so strongly that I'm almost at the point of saying none of this details matter because; the Church does good, will being me closer to God, cause us to act more Christ like, will save my husband and our marriage, and will strengthen our family. Those things mean more to me than the specifics of what Joseph Smith did, or how he did them. But then I get this nagging feeling. I want answers. I want this to all be explained so that I can wrap it all up neatly not only to appease myself, but the countless friends and family whom i expect we will take heavy criticism from.

Thanks in advance for your advice, I really appreciate it!

The Book of Mormon is the best evidence you have for Joseph Smith's legitimacy. If that book is true, then Joseph Smith is a true prophet. Does this help you to answer every question concerning Joseph Smith's history? No. Joseph Smith is a human and he had the weaknesses that humans have. No religious leader anywhere is without fault. But, was he a vile cheater who lied and made up revelation simply to fulfill his carnal desires? No. The evidence simply doesn't jive with that conclusion and, as I mentioned, the greatest evidence that we have for Joseph Smith being a true prophet is the Book of Mormon.

So, that is the key. Because once you know the Book of Mormon is true and you know Joseph Smith is a true prophet then it really comes down to you being true to your convictions. It is no longer a question of someone's intergrity but it becomes a question of obedience. Are you willing to do everything God asks you to do, regardless of the sacrifice required? The Book of Mormon encourages us to read and pray with real intent. This means that we aren't reading and praying to play games with God or just because we are curious. We must be ready to act on the promptings that we are feeling.

I believe that the urge you are feeling right now to join the LDS church or to seek after it is a prompting from the Spirit. God gives us glimpses of truth. He allows us to see so far, but not all of the way. He then leaves us for a moment and allows us to make the choice to either act on the revelation we have received or to reject it. This means that at times we will have to press forward without knowing exactly what is before us or knowing exactly what all of the answers are. Often, it is only after we take this "leap of faith" that God will then reveal more to us.

To address the historical concerns you have about Joseph Smith is a complicated and time consuming venture, but, luckily there are people who have taken the time to address many of the things you've mentioned. I can provide you with some sources to material that will address many of your intellectual concerns. However, I go back to what I wrote in the begining of this post and that is that the best way for you to clear up your concerns about Joseph Smith is to read the Book of Mormon with faith and real intent and then afterwards, with faith and with real intent, pray about it and ask God if the Book is true. God has promised that he will let you know through the power of the Spirit if the Book of Mormon is true.

Respectfully,

Finrock

[mnn727]

I had a hard time about the whole Prophet thing when I joined the Church, I decided to join on the basis of a witness of the rest of the gospel and wait and see about the Prophet thing. Sure enough, it was only a short time later that I got my confirmation that Joseph indeed was a Prophet.

perhaps a bit backwards of me, but it worked.

[dahlia]

Oh, Olivesmom, I hear you. There is nothing that anyone on this board can tell me about the changes in the rules on admitting blacks to the priesthood that wasn't due, at least in part, to seeing the writing on the wall regarding the civil rights movement in the US at the time - as well as the Church's proselytizing efforts in countries where race mixing was frequent.

It is disheartening when you are trying to learn about the Church and all the responses you get are to pray and read the BoM. I needed to think and understand about the Church. I read Church history, I read the biographies of the early Church leaders, I need an understanding of the whole picture. What I think the born Mormons don't understand is that questioning doesn't automatically lead to apostasy.

The beauty of the Church, for me, is that the truth is out there. You can read about Joseph Smith, you can read about the unsavory aspects of Church history, for good or ill - and none of that changes my mind on what I believe. If Joseph and Emma were tired of cleaning up tobacco and then decided it would be better if the Saints didn't use it, fine by me. That is, if the decision wasn't 100% due to revelation, that's OK. It's the rule now, no matter how we got to it.

I'll probably be banned from the board, but that was my experience as an investigator. And despite what folks here might think about me, I believe Joseph Smith had a vision; that he was a prophet of God; I support Thomas Monson as president, seer and revelator; I follow the WOW, and believe that this is the true Church. I am better off for being a Mormon and only wish I had found the Church when my husband was alive. And I'm not going to stop questioning.

[Vort]

What I think the born Mormons don't understand is that questioning doesn't automatically lead to apostasy.

I would guess that BIC Mormons understand this truth in about the same proportion as convert Mormons. But for some things, research will not give a satisfying answer. You need to know from God whether Principle X is true, regardless of any historical background. In such cases, historical research is at best a minor help and at worst a stumbling block. Revelation is needed.

I'll probably be banned from the board

For providing your experiences? I doubt it. :)

And despite what folks here might think about me, I believe Joseph Smith had a vision

I have never gotten the sense that anyone here questions your testimony or your sincerity. Interesting how radically assumptions about such viewpoints can differ.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

And despite what folks here might think about me. . . And I'm not going to stop questioning.

I can only speak for myself, but I like the way you think. I enjoyed your post and agree with you.

[rameumptom]

WoW first was given as counsel from the Lord. It wasn't made a commandment until Brigham Young did so in the 1850s.

That Joseph received many of his revelations with others as witnesses, should strengthen the witness that he was a prophet. That he was also a man, lets us know that not all things are perfect.

Now, the important thing is: if Christ were to ask you to give up coffee, would you do it? If so, then why don't you pray about it, and see what God tells you to do in conjunction with this. You have enough opinions from Mormons and anti-Mormons, now get your own answer from God.

[skoshmom]

Hi there,

I haven't posted or been on this website for such a long time but wanted to reply and say hello to you and everyone else. I hope this holiday season brings joy and peace to you all.

You could read a thousand articles, and go into numerous websites whether they be LDS or anti-LDS (hopefully you won't go to those sites anymore though :) ) but the only way that you will ever be able to know for yourself whether or not the church is true is through prayer with a sincere heart and real intent - there is absolutely no other way. Study, ponder and pray and have faith that you will receive your answer through the Holy Ghost. He will manifest the truth to you - I know because I've experienced it for myself.You do your part and the Holy Gbost will do his part and manifest the truth to you. It is very sacred and powerful. But be aware, once you get your answer, be prepared to act upon it.

Being a member of the church has brough me peace and comfort and joy. My problems have not nor will they go away. That is why we are here - to be tried and tested and to exercise our faith and to endure to the end. I don't know all the answers to my questions, but I do know the answers to the most important questions. It is my prayer for you that you will find this out for yourself.

[bytebear]

Many revelations were given because of some catalyst. Usually when Smith was reading the Bible and didn't understand something. The Word of Wisdom's catalyst was a bit more mundane I suppose, but in my study of Smith's life's work, he had revelation pour from him when God needed him to understand something. Some came through his inquiry, and others took more direct action like the visitation of Moroni over and over and over again.

[BrendaM]

The Lord does not want blind followers. He wants thinking, reasoning, covenant keeping, people. I see nothing wrong in asking questions, about anything. But questioning may be a different matter. The Lord gives revelation. He gives revelation for several reasons, some we know now, some we are yet to find out.

Here's my take on the WofW:

I know that coffee and tea are addictive substances. Anything that my body could become addicted to will hinder the influence that the Holy Ghost could have on my mind and heart.

So I am obedient to the Word of Wisdom.

I know that the WofW is a revelation from God.

So I am obedient to the Word of Wisdom.

I know these things because I have prayed and feel in my heart and mind for this to be true.

I never was a coffee drinker, but loved my tea (and cigarettes). Good luck with this. Heavenly Father will help you...he is already speaking to you. You know that your family needs the Gospel found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And conversely, the Lord needs your family.

The more you are obedient the easier it becomes to live the life the Lord wants you to. Remember though, trials strengthen us...sharpen our souls....make us the best possible us.

[Finrock]

Good afternoon dahlia. I hope that you had a great weekend and that you are having a great day! :)

Oh, Olivesmom, I hear you. There is nothing that anyone on this board can tell me about the changes in the rules on admitting blacks to the priesthood that wasn't due, at least in part, to seeing the writing on the wall regarding the civil rights movement in the US at the time - as well as the Church's proselytizing efforts in countries where race mixing was frequent.

It is disheartening when you are trying to learn about the Church and all the responses you get are to pray and read the BoM. I needed to think and understand about the Church. I read Church history, I read the biographies of the early Church leaders, I need an understanding of the whole picture. What I think the born Mormons don't understand is that questioning doesn't automatically lead to apostasy.

The beauty of the Church, for me, is that the truth is out there. You can read about Joseph Smith, you can read about the unsavory aspects of Church history, for good or ill - and none of that changes my mind on what I believe. If Joseph and Emma were tired of cleaning up tobacco and then decided it would be better if the Saints didn't use it, fine by me. That is, if the decision wasn't 100% due to revelation, that's OK. It's the rule now, no matter how we got to it.

The truth is that God and His truths must be revealed to man by God or these things will forever remain a mystery. This truth is universal; it applies in all situations, in all places, in all times, and to all people. We can read and study out of every book and do our own original research on the whole of reality but we will not know God is God or that His gospel is true unless God reveals this truth to us.

The way that God communicates with His children is as varied as are His children. Not only that, each person's individual journey to discovering the truth is going to be different and varied as well. But, the one commonality that every person who proclaims to know God and His truths have is that they know this because the Spirit revealed this truth to them. Not everyone who claims to know God and His gospel actually knows it, but only those who have received this witness by the power of God.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven" (Emphasis added).

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost (Emphasis added).

It is wise for us to teach others to read the Book of Mormon and to ask God in prayer that He might reveal His truths to them. It is wise for us to do this because it is true.

I'll probably be banned from the board, but that was my experience as an investigator. And despite what folks here might think about me, I believe Joseph Smith had a vision; that he was a prophet of God; I support Thomas Monson as president, seer and revelator; I follow the WOW, and believe that this is the true Church. I am better off for being a Mormon and only wish I had found the Church when my husband was alive. And I'm not going to stop questioning.

The issue isn't about questioning, reading, studying, or anything of the sort. It is clear that God wants us to do all of those things in wisdom and in order. The question is, how can one know that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God? At the end of the day the answer to this question comes only by revelation.

Regards,

Finrock

Edited December 17, 2012 by Finrock
Grammar