Teachers and Firearms

[Vort]

not sure how i would feel dating a girl who packs a gun.. is this normal?

Only among the hot chicks.

[Drpepper]

Only among the hot chicks.

thats probably why i didn't know..

[volgadon]

Perhaps not an unimpeachable source, but Wikipedia states:

The term "assault weapon", as used in the context of civilian rifles, has been attributed to gun-control activist Josh Sugarmann, author of the 1988 book "Assault Weapons and Accessories in America" who wrote:

“Assault weapons—just like armor-piercing bullets, machine guns, and plastic firearms—are a new topic. The weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons—anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun—can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons. In addition, few people can envision a practical use for these weapons."

Look here. http://cdm16040.contentdm.oclc.org/utils/getfile/collection/p4013coll8/id/2807/filename/2787.PDF

Google books is also useful for searching the term, as you can limit the range of years searched.

Assault weapons would have been heavier calibre things.

[Guest]

Lets keep it relevant....

In 2011 - the latest year for which detailed statistics are available - there were 12,664 murders in the US. Of those, 8,583 were caused by firearms.

What are you saying here? That if you take out firearms, then 8,583 murders wouldn't have been committed? That logic is flawed at best.

There are 12,664 murders in the US. 8,583 were caused by firearms. You take out firearms, the story may just change to - There are 12,664 murders in the US, 583 were caused by modified molotov cocktails from a recipe on youtube. 8,000 were caused by illegal firearms.

Okay, so you assume we have such an awesome police force that not a single blackmarket firearm ever gets to citizens... then the story may just change to - There are 12,664 murders in the US, 8,000 were caused by modified molotov cocktails from a recipe on youtube, 583 caused by rear-naked-chokes.

No DrPepper... the story ends at there are 12,664 murders in the US. Why there are that many people who want to kill somebody is the problem. Not the HOW they killed somebody.

Logic dictates that the more freedom you give people, the more people have the freedom to chose wrong - including killing somebody. But guess what. I am not going to exchange the 12,664 murders in a FREE SOCIETY to ZERO murders in a dictatorship.

There is a reason why the USA is the greatest country on the planet and not Britain/Australia. And there is a reason why the USA is not as great as it used to be - and I will be bold enough to say because the USA's laws are starting to look like Britain's/Australia's.

Edited December 28, 2012 by anatess

[volgadon]

There is a reason why the USA is the greatest country on the planet

Jingoist nonsense, IMHO.

[NeuroTypical]

If you're worried by, anxious around, or downright afraid of, guns, then I guess it makes sense that you'd also be worried by, anxious around, or downright afraid of women who have them.

I'm not one of those people. In fact, I taught my daughters to shoot as soon as they could safely operate their little pink .22 single-shot I got them.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Guest]

Two of my friends in the ward got the same little pink shotguns for their daughters, and they take them target shooting regularly.

[Traveler]

As an individual that has served in the military during a war - I understand and was trained that in a conflict, regardless if one is taking a position of defense or offense it is most likely won by whichever side is capable of bringing to bare the most "fire power" at the most critical points of the conflict. There is no such thing as an assault or defensive weapon. But there are differences in weapons and "fire power" capabilities.

If one desires a weapon for defensive purposes - They must seek to have a weapon of superior firepower - or their defensive purpose in in vane.

In a resent debate concerning "assault" weapons - I was asked why I would want a weapon to be legal in society that is so linked to killing others? I responded with - why are you so willing to accept "social drinking" as legal when it is much more associated with killing in our society than are assault weapons?

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Jingoist nonsense, IMHO.

Would you be specific and point out what other country and why they should be considered greater. Is it because of military power or influence? Economic influence? Trade or markets? Social or political influence? What is your reasoning - I would like to understand why you feel the point is "nonsense"?

The Traveler

[Guest]

Jingoist nonsense, IMHO.

You do know I'm Filipino, right?

And for somebody who grew up in Israel to call that nonesense is kinda funny to me.

[selek]

What are you saying here? That if you take out firearms, then 8,583 murders wouldn't have been committed? That logic is flawed at best.

Quite the contrary, Dr. Pepper is pointing out that those 8,583 murders were committed with guns despite the draconian gun laws.

He pointed out (with facts) what the fantasists and crusaders refuse to admit: that criminals are not deterred by laws.

None of the proposed "solutions" would have stopped any of the tragedies they are supposed to prevent.

They simply trample on our Constitutional rights in the name of making meddlesome nannies, back-fence gossips, and Peyton Place fascists feel good about "having done something" about "the problem".

DrP was making exactly the same points you later echoed- he just went about it in a slightly different way.

But try not to cloud the issue with facts- the powers-that-be don't like it.

[selek]

Would you be specific and point out what other country and why they should be considered greater. Is it because of military power or influence? Economic influence? Trade or markets? Social or political influence? What is your reasoning - I would like to understand why you feel the point is "nonsense"?

The Traveler

As an unabashed American patriot and jingoist, I can only quess that it might be because (in the name of tolerance, sensitivity, and the spirit of Special-Olympics-everyone-gets-a-medal-whether-they-placed-first-or-fiftieth) it's because we don't want to offend the sensibilities of citizens of countries who have done LESS to promote freedom, agency, and peace.

I mean, c'mon, the Vichy did their best to resist tyranny in their own special way and Vidkun Quisling was a Norwegian freedom fighter.....

[Guest]

Quite the contrary, Dr. Pepper is pointing out that those 8,583 murders were committed with guns despite the draconian gun laws.

I get what you're saying... but just a slight correction. Not all 8,583 murders were committed under draconian gun laws. At least, I don't think most of the US have draconian gun laws... Yet.

[mnn727]

If you are against teachers being allowed to carry guns in school if they desire (and are trained and licensed) would you then be for declaring that a 1 mile radius around the President to be a weapon free zone and laying off/transferring all secret service agents protecting him?

If not, why not? Is he more valuable to you that your own child is?

This is a serious question I have for all those opposing teachers being allowed to carry, I really would like to hear your answer.

Edited December 28, 2012 by mnn727

[selek]

I get what you're saying... but just a slight correction. Not all 8,583 murders were committed under draconian gun laws. At least, I don't think most of the US have draconian gun laws... Yet.

The contention wasn't mine to make or defend- I was simply pointing out how it was being used.

In point of fact, however, a murder- by definition- is an unlawful killing.

Every murder that takes place happens in violation of the law.

Clearly those people were not deterred by mere laws.

[mnn727]

I trust my school-age child's teachers, and I believe they would act like the teachers in Conn. But, I believe fundamentally, we need to treat teachers with far more respect than has been shown if we want them to defend the kids with deadly force. It's a matter of fairness. How can we expect them to teach and be prepared to use guns at school if we insist on paying them the wages and benefits that are bare minimum? I'm glad there are those willing to pay a little more if a teacher has a concealed weapons permit, but the fact is teacher's salaries have been slashed so much the past few decades that we now as a society expect them to be paid what an undocumented nanny would get and they'd better be grateful for it, by gum! This Great Recession is merely a solidification of policies that have been accepted over the years: work lean, do more for less, do the same for less, be grateful you're even working. Adding weapons training to a teacher's job is just adding insult to injury.

Low pay?!?! my SIL just retired from teaching elementary school at age 55 with 20 years in getting her pension after working 10 months a year and she was making at the end over 70K.

Her pension is plenty to live on even though she has a house payment, she still goes on 4 or 5 good vacations a year (cruises and out of country vacations)

[Traveler]

As an unabashed American patriot and jingoist, I can only quess that it might be because (in the name of tolerance, sensitivity, and the spirit of Special-Olympics-everyone-gets-a-medal-whether-they-placed-first-or-fiftieth) it's because we don't want to offend the sensibilities of citizens of countries who have done LESS to promote freedom, agency, and peace.

I mean, c'mon, the Vichy did their best to resist tyranny in their own special way and Vidkun Quisling was a Norwegian freedom fighter.....

As a Traveler - I realize that many countries have "different things" to offer. I have found some of those things to be superior to what seems to be offer as comparable in the USA. But in considering all things I am curious why the debate and upon what conditions, points or principles would it be "nonsense" that the USA not be considered the greatest country currently in the world.

The Traveler

[Blackmarch]

If you are against teachers being allowed to carry guns in school if they desire (and are trained and licensed) would you then be for declaring that a 1 mile radius around the President to be a weapon free zone and laying off/transferring all secret service agents protecting him?

If not, why not? Is he more valuable to you that your own child is?

This is a serious question I have for all those opposing teachers being allowed to carry, I really would like to hear your answer.

umm generally white house grounds are to be weapon free, save for the secret service and designated military folks. and second when are secret service also meant to be teachers or anything other than an armed interception/prevention agency?

Wouldnt it make more sense for a comparison to say that to have that area be free of secret service would like having a school be free of armed guards?

[Drpepper]

There is a reason why the USA is the greatest country on the planet and not Britain/Australia.

Really, what is that reason?

Don't worry, jimmy you will be safe at school today because all your teachers now carry a gun. Does that sound like the greatest country on earth?

Ps this is not about countries, it's about GUNS.

[selek]

Really, what is that reason?

The reason is American exceptionalism.

Our citizens are free.

Not subjects of the crown.

Not vassals of the state.

Not slaves on the government plantation.

We are endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights, not granted or gifted with privileges by the benevolence of our masters.

So in that sense, you are wrong. It IS about nations.

More specifically, it is about the sort of nation we wish to be.

To quote just a few of my fellow "fanatics":

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property... Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, what we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense?"

" A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no change of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

Edited December 28, 2012 by selek

[Anddenex]

Really, what is that reason?

Don't worry, jimmy you will be safe at school today because all your teachers now carry a gun. Does that sound like the greatest country on earth?

Ps this is not about countries, it's about GUNS.

For fun I am going to make an equally elementary response to your response as to a good reason the USA is the greatest country.

Because I live in the USA, and I am able to bear arms.

Yes jimmy, you will be fine, just don't shoot your eye out.

[Guest]

Low pay?!?! my SIL just retired from teaching elementary school at age 55 with 20 years in getting her pension after working 10 months a year and she was making at the end over 70K.

Her pension is plenty to live on even though she has a house payment, she still goes on 4 or 5 good vacations a year (cruises and out of country vacations)

Okay, let's take this out of anecdotal evidence and place it into factual evidence.

So, according the the US Census Bureau as of 2009 (latest data I can find):

State Teacher Median Comparison

Salary Household

Income

AL 46879 41291 5,588

AK 58395 68084 -9,689

AZ 46358 49677 -3,319

AR 45738 38441 7,297

CA 66995 60198 6,797

CO 48485 56366 -7,881

CT 63152 68174 -5,022

DE 56667 57938 -1,271

DC 62557 60433 2,124

FL 46921 45577 1,344

GA 52879 48314 4,565

HI 54964 65216 -10,252

ID 45178 45791 -613

IL 61344 54992 6,352

IN 49569 46273 3,296

IA 48638 48864 -226

KS 46237 48678 -2,441

KY 47875 40840 7,035

LA 48627 43472 5,155

ME 44731 46507 -1,776

MD 62849 70477 -7,628

MA 67572 65254 2,318

MI 57327 46078 11,249

MN 52414 56592 -4,178

MS 44498 37144 7,354

MO 44249 46047 -1,798

MT 44426 43238 1,188

NE 44968 48092 -3,124

NV 50067 54313 -4,246

NH 50128 61723 -11,595

NJ 63111 69569 -6,458

NM 45752 43954 1,798

NY 69118 55718 13,400

NC 48454 44467 3,987

ND 41654 48453 -6,799

OH 54656 46241 8,415

OK 43846 42515 1,331

OR 54085 49290 4,795

PA 57787 50473 7,314

RI 58440 55084 3,356

SC 47421 43302 4,119

SD 35070 45696 -10,626

TN 45549 42623 2,926

TX 47157 49123 -1,966

UT 45923 56228 -10,305

VT 47884 52589 -4,705

VA 48385 60493 -12,108

WA 52567 57416 -4,849

WV 44701 38031 6,670

WI 51121 50973 148

WY 54602 53829 773

As you can see, it is hardly that Public School Teachers are paid peanuts. If you average out all the numbers in all 50 States plus DC, you'll see that teachers are paid smack dab in the middle of the median household income in the US. MEDIAN household income. Not slave labor income.

And of course, this does not take into consideration the summer vacation or the benefits package/pensions.

[Guest]

Really, what is that reason?

Don't worry, jimmy you will be safe at school today because all your teachers now carry a gun. Does that sound like the greatest country on earth?

Ps this is not about countries, it's about GUNS.

Okay, I'm going to put my snarky hat on...

No. Actually, it is like this - No, Jimmy, you will be safe at school today because the Constitution of the United States guarantees that you have the liberty to pursue happiness and the United States actually has the gonads to allow its citizenry such liberty.

Yes, it is about guns. The freedom to use one if you feel it necessary to preserve your liberty. If you don't feel it necessary, then you are also FREE not to carry one. It's up to you.

Now, find me another country greater than that. Because, you know, in Britain - you can't do that. Coz, you know, your government thinks you're such an idiot you can't be trusted to carry one.

[mnn727]

Okay, let's take this out of anecdotal evidence and place it into factual evidence.

So the average teacher makes that, which includes those just starting out in the field with no experience and people with 20 (or more) years in.

Edited December 28, 2012 by mnn727

[mnn727]

umm generally white house grounds are to be weapon free, save for the secret service and designated military folks.

So if its already a weapons free zone, why have the secret service there at all? Obviously the fact that its a 'Weapons Free zone" is good enough for our children - right?

Edited December 28, 2012 by mnn727