What to do legally?

[Internationaltraveler]

I just got off the phone with a friend who is thinking of leaving the church because she doesn't feel that her bishop, stake president or the ones of her ex husband are listening to her. I have known them for 15 years since they got married and I have seen the whole thing unfold...

They got a divorce for several reasons - his controlling behaviour and physical abuse of the family, his behaviour regarding the church (he does his family history, home teaching, goes out with the missionaries, attends the temple, pays his tithing) but doesn't spend time with the family, provide basic necessities for his family. The church - comes before his family in a huge way. He has had psychiatric evaluations and it comes back as bi-polar, manic depressive, narcissic but he refuses to take medications.

He sued her for divorce and wanted everything. Spent thousands of dollars and ended up with far, far less than he anticipated. He won't bring back the little boy when he is supposed to and returns him without his coat or shoes. He then pretends not to know what his exwife is talking about when she asks where they are. The older daughters refuse to go with him because he is mean to them. He isn't supposed to come around her or the house and he does anyway. He caused her to lose her job because he came to her employment - she was a nanny. He calls the police if she is one minute late bringing the son to the meeting place. He locks the little boy in the car and tells her that he will bring him back when he wants to. It just goes on and on. She is going next week to get another restraining order. He is taking her back to court next week to force the daughters to go with him. She doesn't even have money for a lawyer.

In the meantime, he is the personification of a righteous member of the church - outwardly doing everything by the letter of the law but woefully not living the spirit of the law. The leaders of the church on both sides see this outward manifestation of church activity and refuse to believe his behavior. My friend is now seen as just hormone driven, crazy woman who obviously is the one with the problem. She is frustrated and wants to leave the church. I remember my roommate's father who was a stake president had to write a letter to my roommate's sister's bishop because she faced a similar situation. The bishop couldn't believe how such a "wonderful" member of the church was being painted in such an un flattering way.

Does anyone have a similar story and if so, what did you do? How did you keep strong in the church when the leaders didn't support you?

Edited January 11, 2013 by Internationaltraveler

[MarginOfError]

I just got off the phone with a friend who is thinking of leaving the church because she doesn't feel that her bishop, stake president or the ones of her ex husband are listening to her. I have known them for 15 years since they got married and I have seen the whole thing unfold...

They got a divorce for several reasons - his controlling behaviour and physical abuse of the family, his behaviour regarding the church (he does his family history, home teaching, goes out with the missionaries, attends the temple, pays his tithing) but doesn't spend time with the family, provide basic necessities for his family. The church - comes before his family in a huge way. He has had psychiatric evaluations and it comes back as bi-polar, manic depressive, narcissic but he refuses to take medications.

He sued her for divorce and wanted everything. Spent thousands of dollars and ended up with far, far less than he anticipated. He won't bring back the little boy when he is supposed to and returns him without his coat or shoes. He then pretends not to know what his exwife is talking about when she asks where they are. The older daughters refuse to go with him because he is mean to them. He isn't supposed to come around her or the house and he does anyway. He caused her to lose her job because he came to her employment - she was a nanny. He calls the police if she is one minute late bringing the son to the meeting place. He locks the little boy in the car and tells her that he will bring him back when he wants to. It just goes on and on. She is going next week to get another restraining order. He is taking her back to court next week to force the daughters to go with him. She doesn't even have money for a lawyer.

In the meantime, he is the personification of a righteous member of the church - outwardly doing everything by the letter of the law but woefully not living the spirit of the law. The leaders of the church on both sides see this outward manifestation of church activity and refuse to believe his behavior. My friend is now seen as just hormone driven, crazy woman who obviously is the one with the problem. She is frustrated and wants to leave the church. I remember my roommate's father who was a stake president had to write a letter to my roommate's sister's bishop because she faced a similar situation. The bishop couldn't believe how such a "wonderful" member of the church was being painted in such an un flattering way.

Does anyone have a similar story and if so, what did you do? How did you keep strong in the church when the leaders didn't support you?

As sad as the situation is, it isn't really a church matter. It's a legal one. She should file her restraining orders and document every violation. Take photos when he appears in places he shouldn't. Have the son and daughters record when he does things that are inappropriate. Have a witness available for all exchanges of children that can verify the times and violations. And then let the judge weigh the evidence.

[skippy740]

What is it that she expected her church leaders to DO in this instance?

What does "church leader support" mean to you/her in this instance?

[Backroads]

I agree. I pity your friend, but the Church really isn't able to step up and make this guy do what she wants legally. How is this affecting her day-to-day life in the Church? I don't mean feelings. Is he doing something to impact her callings, her ability to attend church/temple, etc? She can't blame the Church for her own failure to contact the appropriate people over these divorce matters, and she sure as heck can't change his behavior.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

ETA: Wait!!!! Who changed the thread title??? Because I don't think "what to do legallly" is the OP's question at all. Look at the last question in her post. I think that is what she really wants to know. At first I thought she had changed it to clarify, but then remembered a time I wanted to change a thread title of mine but couldn't. So it must have been a moderator. I have to say I find it a bit annoying since I think it changes the topic to something different than what the OP actually wanted.

Below is what I wrote previously in response to THIS question--

How did you keep strong in the church when the leaders didn't support you?

I have a couple suggestions.

First I think I understand. She is going through a difficult time, and instead of loving support, she feels judged because everyone thinks he is a good guy, and she is the evil ex-wife. In my opinion, this is a problem in the church. We are great at hands-on service...if you need meals or help moving that sort of thing...no one can beat Mormons for service. If you are pregnant or sick, you will likely get a lot of kindness and support also...but if you need support for issues such as abuse...that is where things go awry. It is unfortunate and I understand how painful it can be. I have felt like an emotional leper for a few years now at church.

I don't think the focus (hers, yours or mine) should be on "fixing" them. They are probably wonderful leaders in other ways. Besides we can't change anyone but ourselves. Sometimes we can influence others with our words or example, but we really can't change them. Also remember:

In the Catholic church everyone says the Pope is infallible, but no one believes it. In our church we say the prophet is fallible, but no one believes it. This falliblity extends to local leaders, naturally. Yes, this is the Lord's church, but the leaders he calls are still humans and as such they sometimes make mistakes.

If she were my friend, I would be there for her (listen and validate) as you likely already have. But I would also talk to her gently about Jesus Christ. Assure her that He loves her and that He cares about her pain. Remind her of when Lazarus died, Jesus came and found Mary and Martha weeping. He didn't offer platitudes or even tell them that their suffering would be "but a small moment" literally....no, He did something amazing. He wept with them. I'm sure He weeps with your friend also.

This is important. We don't go to church for the leaders. We go to church because Christ, who loves us, and weeps with us...who paid the price for us...asked us to do so. No matter how painful it is, He can and will help.

At least that has been my experience. To clarify, my issue is different than your friend's. I have a wonderful, supportive husband. But the last couple of years have been hard, and church is very hard as well. There were times when I even doubted God's exsistence, but I kept going to church because deep down I knew...that God does exsist and that church, however, painful it was/is for me, is where He wanted me to be.

More than anything, tell her the Lord loves her and weeps with her.

Edited January 11, 2013 by LiterateParakeet

[garryw]

I don't really give much credulity to people who want to leave the church because they dont like the leaders or think the leaders are not supportive enough.

I can tell you flat out, if my bishop gave me two black eyes and my sp spit in my face (not that they would) it would have zero effect on my feelings about the church or my interest in attending. Who cares what they do or think? Look at the name of the church, it's not the church of bishop so and so.

To give you a real life example, I know someone who works at the church office building and essentially gets his paycheck from tithing. And I also know what he spends his paychecks on. But I also know that it's his problem and it doesn't make me stop paying tithing.

And regarding divorce, been there done that, so I don't take it lightly, but if you have the gift of the Holy Ghost then you have access and help from the Godhead of the entire cosmos. I'm not sure how denying herself that privilege will help anything.

[applepansy]

My sister was married to someone with the same issues.

My advice is document, document, document. Then prepare a safety plan because when he realizes other people are seeing through his smoke screen he will lash out at her. My sister's ex tried to run her off the road and she had their oldest son with her.

My sister's bishop didn't believe her to begin with but he had his own issues (his parents had divorced and he didn't want the children to go through what he did - not realizing they were already going through worse). But people with these behaviorial issues cannot maintain the outward appearances for long. Eventually other people start seeing what is going on. My sister's Bishop was released and the new Bishop had watched her ex rent a house in the ward and then entice the children to sit with him on her weekend. That was just one issue. This man quietly watched it all and when he became Bishop he was better able to help.

Leaving the church over this is not the answer. We don't go to church because our Bishop believes us. We go because we love the Savior. If your friend will remain faithful, prayerful and steadfast everything will come to light when it is the right time and she and the children can be safe.

My sister was really upset with the judge in her divorce. She felt he didn't understand or didn't care what was happening. Her ex got joint custody. Now she sees this as a blessing. When Josh Powell killed his boys, she said that could have been her and her boys. Her ex is just like Josh Powell.

Your friend needs to be careful.

[Internationaltraveler]

Thank you for the responses given. I agree that this is basically a legal matter that she needs to go the appropriate channels to deal with it. She is doing that to the best of her ability even though this guy is wearing her down. Excellent ideas for documentation. I told her to take her iPhone and make audio and video recordings as evidence.

LiterateParakeet - I think you hit it on the head. She feels judged and the evil ex wife while he is going about being " a good guy" and rubbing his righteousness in her face. I guess I am thinking why can't someone just sit down with him and counsel him to behave and keep his agreements he has already made? The general authorities have told priesthood leaders to treat their wives and families with love and respect. What happens when that doesn't happen? Is it possible someone step up and give some counsel?

You are correct that the only person that can work out this situation is my friend herself. As her friends, the rest of us need to support her. Thank you for the suggestions and comments.

I know that the gospel is true but we as church members are still in our process of refinement. I remember when I was in the MTC and it was very difficult for me. I asked for a priesthood blessing and I was told that the branch presidency only gave blessings on Tuesdays - this was Wed. I was devistated because I really felt like I needed some support from my leaders. I certainly learned that sometimes the leaders are not as understanding, kind, etc. as I would ideally want them to be.

[Internationaltraveler]

Garyw and Applepansy - thank you for your comments. You are absolutely correct that we go to church for the Saviour and not for any other reason.

[Guest]

I have a friend in a similar situation. Her ex is in the neighborhood and ward next door acting the part of Peter Priesthood, and making her out to be the crazy ex-wife to all their old friends and ward members. He's taken her to court frequently with various accusations about her mothering (he always loses), which is hard for her since she's barely supporting herself and he's still got his good job and pays little child support since they split custody.

For the most part she just ignores the naysayers. This has been a time for her to discover her true friends, and find some new ones. In the meantime she's focusing on being the best mom she can and building a new life for herself. Over time people see that his attacks are only hurting the kids, and that she's doing a darn good job with what she has. She's also served in the church as much as she can, counsels frequently with the bishop, and gets a lot of help and support from ward members. She literally would be homeless if not for the help of our ward and its members.

Your friend needs to build her foundation on the Rock and not worry about the arm of man. Her true friends will be proven, and she doesn't want the others anyway. I think it just takes time of focusing on the most important things- her relationship with the Savior and her children- and most people will either see the truth or stop caring. The next drama will come along and they'll move on to wagging their tongues about that. But she won't know or care, because she'll be keeping better company. :)

[estradling75]

LiterateParakeet - I think you hit it on the head. She feels judged and the evil ex wife while he is going about being " a good guy" and rubbing his righteousness in her face. I guess I am thinking why can't someone just sit down with him and counsel him to behave and keep his agreements he has already made? The general authorities have told priesthood leaders to treat their wives and families with love and respect. What happens when that doesn't happen? Is it possible someone step up and give some counsel?

Based on what? What you have here is a he said she said situation... which is always dicey... Then you have him going to great lengths to cultivate at least an appearance of respectability so that people will side with him. While apparently she is falling apart. Which while understandable, works against her.

Until she can counter his smoke and mirrors with facts she is going to come out poorly.

[Internationaltraveler]

Someone from the website changed the title of my original post. This new title "what to do legally" doesn't have the same meaning... I am sorry that someone decided to change what I wrote...

[Guest]

The original title was in violation of site rule #1 (Site Rules, blue link toward the top. Everyone who registers here agrees to them.).

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

The original title was in violation of site rule #1 (Site Rules, blue link toward the top. Everyone who registers here agrees to them.).

Oh that makes sense then. Thanks for clarifyihg.

[Internationaltraveler]

The original title was in violation of site rule #1 (Site Rules, blue link toward the top. Everyone who registers here agrees to them.).

Thank you for clarifying as well as sharing the experience of your sister. Very helpful

[pam]

Someone from the website changed the title of my original post. This new title "what to do legally" doesn't have the same meaning... I am sorry that someone decided to change what I wrote...

If you would like me to change the title to something more appropriate let me know. As long as it doesn't appear to be negative towards church leaders.

[Backroads]

I'm still a little confused as to why your friend is angry at her church leaders. We all agree the Church can do little in the legal ways for her. I also doubt the bishop is trained in marriage/post marriage counseling.

Is she looking more for emotional support from her leaders and not getting it?

[classylady]

Just some thoughts I had: Sometimes, we mistakenly think people in the ward are misjudging us. It can be that they don't even realize what is going on. They may know a divorce is happening, but have no clue as to the whys and the wherefores. So, one of the spouses sees a member of the ward talking with the other spouse and automatically thinks the ward member is siding with the other spouse. When in actuality, no such thing is happening. The ward member is simply being friendly, and isn't even talking about the upcoming divorce and really has no idea what the issues are.

The Bishop may be the spiritual advisor to both divorcing spouses. He isn't going to ostracize the offending spouse (if there is one). He may counsel, but has no legal or spiritual authority to "make" a person change their behavior.

My younger sister went inactive after her divorce because her perception was that everyone in her ward, including the bishop sided with her ex. I'm thinking that's mostly all it was--her personal perception. I think for the most part, most of the members of the ward had no clue as to what the issues were and the cause for the divorce. They (the ward members) just remained friendly to her ex, and she perceived it as them siding with him. I don't know what she expected--the ward family to turn their backs on her ex, to have nothing to do with him? Did she want the bishop to publicly humiliate her husband--point his finger at the offender and say so-and-so is evil? It isn't going to happen. The bishop is there to help the two of them.

[Dravin]

LiterateParakeet - I think you hit it on the head. She feels judged and the evil ex wife while he is going about being " a good guy" and rubbing his righteousness in her face. I guess I am thinking why can't someone just sit down with him and counsel him to behave and keep his agreements he has already made? The general authorities have told priesthood leaders to treat their wives and families with love and respect. What happens when that doesn't happen? Is it possible someone step up and give some counsel?

I'd be surprised if someone didn't bring it up with him, if he denies any inappropriate behavior though there really isn't counsel to give about how he needs to go changing his behavior. If he's the kind of guy he's painted as I don't see the expectation that "If his Bishop/Stakepresident tells him to behave he'll shape up." to be a reasonable one.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Dravin

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I guess I am thinking why can't someone just sit down with him and counsel him to behave and keep his agreements he has already made? The general authorities have told priesthood leaders to treat their wives and families with love and respect. What happens when that doesn't happen? Is it possible someone step up and give some counsel?

Like Dravin said, perhaps they have tried...but men like this ex-husband do not change that easily. My guess is that it would take some Book-of-Mormon-type-miracle to change his heart.

[Gravy]

I am so sorry for your friend. Like many others, I think it is mostly a legal issue.

But I do have something to say about how many in the church might be too quick to judge someone's OUTWARD appearance. My husband has been a member all his life. I converted 15 years ago. It has been such a struggle for me. It seems like I attend church for a few years, get tired of the struggle, then stop for a few years. The cycle continues. But my husband goes to church EVERY week, without fail. That's ALL he does, though. He has never been there for me, spiritually or emotionally. He doesn't lead our family (four children). Yet I'm sure when people in our ward see me attending church less or not at all, they think I'm the one with issues :) Yes, I have issues -- I need someone with a strong testimony to bounce my ideas and concerns off of. And my husband has completely bailed in that department. Yet I am sure he is seen as Mr. Model Mormon Meanwhile, even when I don't attend church, I live a very worth life --- Just remember, you never know what is really going on. I imagine one of the hardest things for your friend is to know that her "husband/x" is revered so highly despite all of his horrible shortcomings.

[kevieb]

whoever said to document everything is absolutely right---i went through a divorce over 27 years ago---and my ex tried to hide all his assets before we split up--he was planning ahead and I didn't realize what he was doing---so I even signed certain things---which his attorney tried to point out in court---to make it look like I had agreed to these things.

we were separated for a time, and my attorney thought we should wait a bit and see if my ex screwed up---and he did --he beat my son. When we finally ended up in court, the judge didn't fall for the scams he had tried to pull----one of my favorites---the judge awarded him the equity in the land he had "given" to his father.. He had signed our land and all our vehicles over to other people in order to make it look like he didn't have anything--but the judge saw right through it.

I had also signed these things--but he had told me it was for a different reason. The judge knew I was young and had only graduated from high school---he gave my ex all the bills---and he took out bankruptcy, which left my name on a number of bills---and my own attorney, who got one of the judgments to be that my ex had to pay my attorney fees, continued to send me a bill!!!! Don't think I'd ever use him again.

My new husband actually ended up paying some of my ex's bills at a lesser amount---he looks back and wishes he had never done it---but the only thing we could have done was take my ex to court---which would have just cost us more money.

Divorces are nasty things. sounds like her ex is in contempt of court if he is not following the set down visitation.

I have read the articles that talk about what a strong stand the church takes against spousal abuse in

any form. she feels like she is not getting the support she needs because this man is living a lie--and they are believing it---you sound like you have seen it. Is there a reason that you can't speak up for her and let her church leaders know that you have known this couple all along and you know without a doubt that she is in desperate need of support from them?

I don't know if that would be out of line, but if it's not, it certainly can't help to try.

Ideally, we should all look to the Savior and not let what other people say and think bother us, and we should remain faithful regardless--but when you are really struggling and hurting---and it feels like no one cares----it is a lot easier said than done. Been there---still trying to get myself out of there.

I have realized, especially after joining this board, that I have more of a testimony than I thought I did---but it is still a struggle sometimes.

I hope that we can all pray for your friend, even though we don't know her--and I hope that she does not become so discouraged that she leaves the church. Remind her, that while her testimony is weak---she can lean on yours for awhile.

I heard a neat testimony in church recently that said something something similar to that.

Eowyn---love your screen name, by the way---your friend is quite a woman to be able to shut out the naysayers--I'm not sure I could do it myself---Has she ever told you what she did early on to keep from getting discouraged while her husband played "Peter Priesthood"? just wondering if she might have some insight that you might be able to pass on.

I know, I'm an idealist, but sometimes I like to try and connect people in any way I can that might be able to help another.

i know that I have been helped on this board---even while I felt like I was kicking and screaming to defend myself---sometimes, at least for me, I have found that I can start complaining about something in church that is really bothering me--and before the conversation is over---I find myself defending the church----some of us just handle things through a different process, I guess.

[BadWolf]

It sounds like she & I have the same ExHusband.

EXCEPT, mine isn't LDS.

So the church AND the church BUILDING are safe places for me, safe places for my kiddo.

People Ive come to know, never knew my Ex in 'charm mode'.

They never feel betrayed at having been around during the years I was abused and having done nothing to stop it (or see it), they don't feel guilty.

They don't have to reconcile feelings of betrayal and guilt with the smiling Superactive member, and "choose" between feeling terrible about their own past inaction and feeling good about themselves (and the smiling charming man).

They don't have to be afraid that abusers CAN be nice, upstanding, charming, etc. MOST of the time. Far easier to cling to the (wrong) idea that they'd be able to SEE the wrong, and swoop in and stop it.

Siding with an abuser is the EASY choice.

So its what most people do.

Denying the abuse could ever have happened.

Not on THEIR 'watch'.

I counsel that your friend MOVE.

Becayse, quite frankly, it is unlikely that the members of her ward will EVER be supportive of her. Even if she carries around her medical records and court rulings.

I think of it this way:

My husband had ME fooled enough to marry him.

Was convincing enough I chose to stay with him, time after time.

I can hardly blame people for falling for the same load of malarkey that I did.

But I DO need support.

People who aren't so wrapped up in protecting the IDEA of who they are (who would swoop in and save battered wives/children), that they in turn are causing more pain and suffering TO those selfsame battered wife & children.

New people will be able to see the situation clearly, because they won't be wrapped up in protecting themselves.

Your friend is right.

She DOES need a new 'church' (aka building/ward)... Just not a new Church.

My hugs to ALL involved.

Losing GOOD people hurt one heckuva lot more than booting my ex.

And I was far too hurt/exhausted/etc. to carry around my records "proving" myself.

Had 'em.

And if I have to drag them out and relive the whole sordid mess so that you'd stay my friend?

Then you were not a friend.

When you're trying to keep your kids alive, most don't have that kind of energy to fight an uphill battle against other people's self defense mechanisms.

[MarginOfError]

I don't really give much credulity to people who want to leave the church because they dont like the leaders or think the leaders are not supportive enough.

I can tell you flat out, if my bishop gave me two black eyes and my sp spit in my face (not that they would) it would have zero effect on my feelings about the church or my interest in attending. Who cares what they do or think? Look at the name of the church, it's not the church of bishop so and so.

To give you a real life example, I know someone who works at the church office building and essentially gets his paycheck from tithing. And I also know what he spends his paychecks on. But I also know that it's his problem and it doesn't make me stop paying tithing.

And regarding divorce, been there done that, so I don't take it lightly, but if you have the gift of the Holy Ghost then you have access and help from the Godhead of the entire cosmos. I'm not sure how denying herself that privilege will help anything.

It's great that you have such a strong conviction. However, the simple fact is that many people struggle to maintain the motivation to stay in the Church when attending is an emotional and social burden. In cases where it becomes socially costly, they are even less likely to continue to attend (such as when their reputation is damaged in the social group). When we don't give such members much credulity, we do exacerbate the problems they are facing and reinforce their decision to leave.

The covenant is to mourn with those who mourn and comfort those who stand in need of comfort. It was not qualified to include only those who were determined to stay.

I'm still a little confused as to why your friend is angry at her church leaders. We all agree the Church can do little in the legal ways for her. I also doubt the bishop is trained in marriage/post marriage counseling.

Is she looking more for emotional support from her leaders and not getting it?

It's easy to think rationally from where we sit. If she's a victim of abuse, she can't do that. What's more, abusers are very good at socially and emotionally isolating those they abuse. Her priesthood leaders may be the only avenue of help she believes she has. Imagine how you would feel if you lost what was your only perceived source of rescue. That's probably what she's feeling.

[garryw]

I remember when I was in the MTC and it was very difficult for me. I asked for a priesthood blessing and I was told that the branch presidency only gave blessings on Tuesdays

Finding someone to give you a blessing in the MTC is liking finding saltwater in the ocean. It's not that hard. Forget the BP, grab anyone with the word "Elder" on the name tag.