Can there be free will while God knows all things?

[Rob Osborn]

19 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Source?

What do you think happens during the millennium?

[person0]

9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, infants will be resurrected ss infants, never able to grow or progress eh?

Why was Christ baptized?

Yes, infants will be resurrected as infants, but their body will develop to its 'prime' state, which sounds like something with which you already agree.  This does not mean they will need to be baptized.

Quote

". . . in the resurrection of the dead the child that was buried in its infancy will come up in the form of the child that it was when it was laid down; then it will begin to develop. From the day of the resurrection, the body will develop until it reaches the full measure of the stature of its spirit, whether it be male or female."

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, (2011), 128–35 

Christ was capable of committing sin, even though he never did.  However: 

Quote

". . . little children who are taken away in infancy and innocence before they have reached the years of accountability, and are not capable of committing sin. . .are redeemed. . ."
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, (2011), 128–35 

 

[The Folk Prophet]

23 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

What do you think happens during the millennium?

That's not a source.

What I DON'T think happens is that children who died before the age of 8 will get baptized somehow.

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, person0 said:

Yes, infants will be resurrected as infants, but their body will develop to its 'prime' state, which sounds like something with which you already agree.  This does not mean they will need to be baptized.

Christ was capable of committing sin, even though he never did.  However: 

 

Christ was baptised because it is the process whereby one enters into a covenant relationship to obey tge Father. Christ was thus obedient and entered into the covenant relationship. Likewise, all men, either now or before the end of the millennium will have to enter into the baptismal covenant just like Christ in order to be saved. 

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

That's not a source.

What I DON'T think happens is that children who died before the age of 8 will get baptized somehow.

They will get baptized along with all the other ordinances and covenants of the priesthood as performed in temples needed for their salvation

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, Rob Osborn said:

They will get baptized along with all the other ordinances and covenants of the priesthood as performed in temples needed for their salvation

Once again...source?

[Rob Osborn]

Let me ask this- how is it possible for little children who die to someday get married if they neither marry nor are givin in marriage  in mortality? This same line of reasoning points out to the necessary ordinances for them too in the millennium.

[The Folk Prophet]

9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Let me ask this- how is it possible for little children who die to someday get married if they neither marry nor are givin in marriage  in mortality? This same line of reasoning points out to the necessary ordinances for them too in the millennium.

Still...not a source.

I suggest you carefully review Moroni 8. It explains baptism as it relates to children quite plainly.

How is it possible for children who die to get married. We don't know. Unrevealed. We can speculate. But we don't know. Speculatively, it will be revealed by the angels who to seal them to*, and the work will be done by the living for them via work for the dead. But we don't really know the answer to your question. It has not been revealed.

That children do not need baptism has been revealed however.

*edit: presumably the "angels" in question will be the ones needing the sealing. Still...speculative.

Edited April 3, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Rob Osborn]

6 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Still...not a source.

I suggest you carefully review Moroni 8. It explains baptism as it relates to children quite plainly.

How is it possible for children who die to get married. We don't know. Unrevealed. We can speculate. But we don't know. Speculatively, it will be revealed by the angels who to seal them to*, and the work will be done by the living for them via work for the dead. But we don't really know the answer to your question. It has not been revealed.

That children do not need baptism has been revealed however.

*edit: presumably the "angels" in question will be the ones needing the sealing. Still...speculative.

Of course its speculation. This church thrives on speculation. But with a little logic its not hard to put two and two together. We have had past prophets speculate on every angle of children. Some preached they would be children for eternity while other preached the opposite that they would grow to adulthood. Its only logical that they will grow to adulthood and have every opportunity for exaltation just like us. Its also logical then that when they do become accountable they will also desire to make the same covenants as the rest of us also. There isnt some automatic exaltation for them, it would deny them their agency.

[JohnsonJones]

14 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Let me ask this- how is it possible for little children who die to someday get married if they neither marry nor are givin in marriage  in mortality? This same line of reasoning points out to the necessary ordinances for them too in the millennium.

not doctrine.

As per doctrine, they do NOT get married, and as per Joseph Smith who had the most revealed on this, they may grow older, but, though they attain their thrones in heaven, and it is possible for parents to raise them (and earlier teaching of his actually stated they did NOT grow up at all, but were infants on thrones, this changed after time, probably due to revelation on this), however, nothing states that they get married and have eternal offspring.  This is a Mormon cultural addition, rather than anything doctrinal as far as I know.

If we are speculating, they do NOT get eternal marriage.  The reason is that they had a choice in the pre-existence and were great and good enough to ensure salvation in the Celestial Kingdom, but through their choice, chose NOT to go through the trials of mortaility and hence made the choice of whether to have the opportunity for eternal marriage, or to inherit their salvation with going to their thrones above.  Everything spoken of by authorities and such indicate that they go to the Celestial Kingdom, and attain their thrones, but nothing ever states that they have ALL the blessings of those who obtain all blessings in this life do.

 

PS: One of the interesting things about me, is that I was almost one of those who died at birth.  It is deeply personal in some ways, but there is one item that came up and that was that I had a choice.  I could have gone directly to the Celestial Kingdom as little children who die at birth do, or I could stay and go through mortality.  The reason I stayed was the choice to obtain a Celestial Marriage and the blessings thereof.  This is my reasoning, though it is not Mormon Doctrine, that I feel the way I do about the fate of those who die at birth.  It hence is a PERSONAL opinion.  Of course, that only applies to those who die at birth, if one really considers it and does not cover those who die while in mortality but still a child, or even a teenager or someone who has not had the opportunity to marry in this life.

Edited April 4, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[The Folk Prophet]

7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

This church thrives on speculation. 

Um...no.

7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

But with a little logic its not hard to put two and two together. 

No.

7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its only logical that they will grow to adulthood and have every opportunity for exaltation just like us. 

That's more than logic. That is doctrinal. Did you read Moroni 8?

7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its also logical then that when they do become accountable they will also desire to make the same covenants as the rest of us also. There isn't some automatic exaltation for them, it would deny them their agency.

No. This isn't logic. It's presuming things that aren't correct, presuming things that contradict known truths.

[The Folk Prophet]

22 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

not doctrine.

As per doctrine, they do NOT get married, and as per Joseph Smith who had the most revealed on this, they may grow older, but, though they attain their thrones in heaven, and it is possible for parents to raise them (and earlier teaching of his actually stated they did NOT grow up at all, but were infants on thrones, this changed after time, probably due to revelation on this), however, nothing states that they get married and have eternal offspring.  This is a Mormon cultural addition, rather than anything doctrinal as far as I know.

Well that's not really true. There have been plenty of prophets and apostle who have taught that no promised blessings will be denied the faithful. When prophets and apostles teach things it's not a "cultural addition".

24 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

If we are speculating, they do NOT get eternal marriage.

Why would anyone speculate that? I mean, sure, a few in the very, very early church before sealing was truly understood, etc., might have speculated such. But why would anyone who understands the gospel in our modern day assume that someone who died through no fault of their own would be denied blessings? I mean on this point I agree with @Rob Osborn. I just don't agree that baptism is requisite for those who were too young to be accountable in life. But the speculation that children who die are just out of luck doesn't fit.

28 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

The reason is that they had a choice in the pre-existence and were great and good enough to ensure salvation in the Celestial Kingdom, but through their choice, chose NOT to go through the trials of mortaility and hence made the choice of whether to have the opportunity for eternal marriage, or to inherit their salvation with going to their thrones above.

This is a fine fiction. One could likely write a best-selling fantasy book on the concept. As to revealed truth. 

30 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

but nothing ever states that they have ALL the blessings of those who obtain all blessings in this life do.

Except for all the teachings that state exactly that.

31 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

PS: One of the interesting things about me, is that I was almost one of those who died at birth.  It is deeply personal in some ways, but there is one item that came up and that was that I had a choice.  I could have gone directly to the Celestial Kingdom as little children who die at birth do, or I could stay and go through mortality.  The reason I stayed was the choice to obtain a Celestial Marriage and the blessings thereof.  This is my reasoning, though it is not Mormon Doctrine, that I feel the way I do about the fate of those who die at birth.  It hence is a PERSONAL opinion.  Of course, that only applies to those who die at birth, if one really considers it and does not cover those who die while in mortality but still a child, or even a teenager or someone who has not had the opportunity to marry in this life.

Your personal opinion contradicts known teachings of the gospel.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Um...no.

No.

That's more than logic. That is doctrinal. Did you read Moroni 8?

No. This isn't logic. It's presuming things that aren't correct, presuming things that contradict known truths.

Known truths eh? Thats a stretch. More like known speculation.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

not doctrine.

As per doctrine, they do NOT get married, and as per Joseph Smith who had the most revealed on this, they may grow older, but, though they attain their thrones in heaven, and it is possible for parents to raise them (and earlier teaching of his actually stated they did NOT grow up at all, but were infants on thrones, this changed after time, probably due to revelation on this), however, nothing states that they get married and have eternal offspring.  This is a Mormon cultural addition, rather than anything doctrinal as far as I know.

If we are speculating, they do NOT get eternal marriage.  The reason is that they had a choice in the pre-existence and were great and good enough to ensure salvation in the Celestial Kingdom, but through their choice, chose NOT to go through the trials of mortaility and hence made the choice of whether to have the opportunity for eternal marriage, or to inherit their salvation with going to their thrones above.  Everything spoken of by authorities and such indicate that they go to the Celestial Kingdom, and attain their thrones, but nothing ever states that they have ALL the blessings of those who obtain all blessings in this life do.

 

PS: One of the interesting things about me, is that I was almost one of those who died at birth.  It is deeply personal in some ways, but there is one item that came up and that was that I had a choice.  I could have gone directly to the Celestial Kingdom as little children who die at birth do, or I could stay and go through mortality.  The reason I stayed was the choice to obtain a Celestial Marriage and the blessings thereof.  This is my reasoning, though it is not Mormon Doctrine, that I feel the way I do about the fate of those who die at birth.  It hence is a PERSONAL opinion.  Of course, that only applies to those who die at birth, if one really considers it and does not cover those who die while in mortality but still a child, or even a teenager or someone who has not had the opportunity to marry in this life.

I strongly disagree.

[The Folk Prophet]

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Known truths eh? Thats a stretch. More like known speculation.

Like Moroni Chapter 8? Mormon was just speculating?

[The Folk Prophet]

13 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Known truths eh? Thats a stretch. More like known speculation.

You might also want to review Elder McConkie's article https://www.lds.org/liahona/1978/03/salvation-of-little-children?lang=eng

Edit: You too @JohnsonJones

Edited April 4, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Rob Osborn]

40 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Like Moroni Chapter 8? Mormon was just speculating?

Moroni ch. 8 doesnt speak about their state in eternity, it just speaks about their immediate situation of which I agree.

[Rob Osborn]

37 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You might also want to review Elder McConkie's article https://www.lds.org/liahona/1978/03/salvation-of-little-children?lang=eng

Edit: You too @JohnsonJones

Well, there is both truth and speculation in that talk. It says that little children will be resurrected during the millennium with celestial bodies. I disagree here as the earth will only be abiding a Terrestrial glory and anyone quickened or resurrected at that time will be done so by the terresttial glory. Sure, they may go on and be quickened again at the end of the millennium to a celestial body but their glory in the millennium will be terrestrial, not celestial. Also, Satan will be loosed for a little season at the end of the millenium and all will be tried, no one is exempt from Satans temptations. There has to be a personal committment from each individual on whom they choose to follow. Every person will be able to use their agency to choose either Christ or Satan. No one, just because they die before becoming accountable, is automatically sealed up to perfection. They may not go to hell after death, but at some point they must choose Christ and all the ordinances and covenants of salvation.

[The Folk Prophet]

13 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Moroni ch. 8 doesnt speak about their state in eternity

Yes it does.

[Rob Osborn]

7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Yes it does.

So what does it say about them becoming adults? Nothing. What does it say about them becomibg Gods? Nothing.

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, there is both truth and speculation in that talk. 

Just saying stuff doesn't make it true.

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I disagree here 

Which amounts to....nothing.

6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

...as the earth will only be abiding a Terrestrial glory and anyone quickened or resurrected at that time will be done so by the terresttial glory. Sure, they may go on and be quickened again at the end of the millennium to a celestial body but their glory in the millennium will be terrestrial, not celestial. 

So...we have a clear teaching (one of many, I might add...not a one-off speculation, but something that has been taught consistently) by an apostle, but you feel free to cast it aside simply because you disagree. Well. Okay. If that's how you feel then that's how you feel. You have a right to believe what you want.

9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Also, Satan will be loosed for a little season at the end of the millenium and all will be tried

Only those living at that time, actually.

10 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

There has to be a personal committment from each individual on whom they choose to follow. Every person will be able to use their agency to choose either Christ or Satan.

This is true. But has nothing to do with the question of baptism

15 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

No one, just because they die before becoming accountable, is automatically sealed up to perfection. 

Except that is exactly what is taught. Of course we understand that it isn't/wasn't automatic as related to eternity, but it is as related to mortality.

19 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

They may not go to hell after death, but at some point they must choose Christ and all the ordinances and covenants of salvation.

It's really like you either didn't read, didn't understand, or are just choosing to blatantly ignore the things the scriptures and apostles teach on the matter. So... Yeah. Think what you will. That's your choice.

[The Folk Prophet]

11 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So what does it say about them becoming adults? Nothing. What does it say about them becomibg Gods? Nothing.

It explicitly says they will be saved without baptism.

But I'm not going to debate it any more with you. Believe what you want.

[Rob Osborn]

55 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Just saying stuff doesn't make it true.

Which amounts to....nothing.

So...we have a clear teaching (one of many, I might add...not a one-off speculation, but something that has been taught consistently) by an apostle, but you feel free to cast it aside simply because you disagree. Well. Okay. If that's how you feel then that's how you feel. You have a right to believe what you want.

Only those living at that time, actually.

This is true. But has nothing to do with the question of baptism

Except that is exactly what is taught. Of course we understand that it isn't/wasn't automatic as related to eternity, but it is as related to mortality.

It's really like you either didn't read, didn't understand, or are just choosing to blatantly ignore the things the scriptures and apostles teach on the matter. So... Yeah. Think what you will. That's your choice.

There is a lot of speculation in the church over this issue. I dont think there is actually much revealed truth at all. The doctrines we do have are mostly bits and pieces coupled with a lot of speculation. In the end we are told that all of the celestial will be baptised. So how it all plays out may be speculation but at least we know all the celestial in the end will all have to be baptised.

 

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

In the end we are told that all of the celestial will be baptised. So how it all plays out may be speculation but at least we know all the celestial in the end will all have to be baptised.

*sigh* I know I said I was done...but seriously...you're just saying stuff.

Where? Where does it say this thing you claim? Give me a source. "All the celestial in the end will all have to be baptised".

[JohnsonJones]

The above is my personal opinion, BACKED UP DIRECTLY by things and blessings given to me by individuals.  It specified I made a choice, and the ONLY reason I decided to live a life is to receive that blessing of eternal marriage.

There are many who will have celestial bodies but not be in an eternal marriage.  As per Joseph Fielding Smith, there may be those in the Celestial Kingdom who do not even have a Celestial body!  The items quoted by McKonkie regarding that particular volume of the doctrines of Salvation discuss the items prior to his talk never state children are married in the Celestial Kingdom.  It discusses what he goes over before, but the marriage thing is particular to his talk there.  He has no sources from revelations and prophets in that regards.

This is located in Chapter 3 of Doctrines of Salvation, however the questions regarding who is and who isn't married in the Celestial Kingdom is found in Chapter 4 of Doctrines of Salvation which Mckonkie leaves blank.  It is there that we find out about the  hows and whys of the exaltation of the family unit and other such items.

I have a great respect for McKonkie, as also his son (Joseph McKonkie), and he states in this talk that children do get married in the Celestial Kingdom.  He has no sources or reference that actually talk about that subject, it is his own personal injection in that article.

McKonkie ALSO stated previously that Blacks would never have the priesthood.

Unless it is stated as doctrine or in that regards, it is NOT doctrine.

That said, I am making it clear that this IS my opinion.  It is NOT doctrine (anymore than one claiming children are also attain celestial marriage) as these items are ONLY found in external sources (for example, the Doctrines of Salvation) which are the thoughts and extrapolations of apostles, prophets and general authorities.  There is NO doctrine in this regards other than the things Joseph originally revealed and which Joseph F Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith extrapolated upon, none of which reveal that children are married in the Celestial Kingdom.  Joseph Smith original taught that children who die will remain that same age and size for eternity and rule on thrones.  That changed in later teachings that their parents will have the opportunity to raise them in the eternities.  More or less than this is basically our opinions.