Can there be free will while God knows all things?

[MrShorty]

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

I do want to put forth the idea that G-d knows our life plan and that we have 100% controle over it - just not that much in this mortal life.

This sounds like we exercised all of our agency in the pre-mortal life, and that we are now simply "playing out" the choices we have previously made.

[Traveler]

10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Not at all. Until the atonement actually happened the prison doors (hell) were not accessed, no resurrections possible, etc.

I realize that there may be some events, perhaps even a lot that fall with in a very narrow time sequence of cause and effect as you carefully laid out and defined as inviolate.  - My question concerns any possible exception to your declaration.  If there was even one very tiny almost insignificant exception, then I am hopping you may realize that your concept of time sequencing is not all conclusive and that there is something you have overlooked in your understanding.

I am also hopping you find some excitement in the process of discovery when you put ideas out on the internet with a challenge and intent for others to think about and respond. 

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

10 hours ago, MrShorty said:

This sounds like we exercised all of our agency in the pre-mortal life, and that we are now simply "playing out" the choices we have previously made.

 

Thank you for your reading my posts, considering critical thought, drawing a conclusion and responding.  When I first consider the possibility, you are now considering – I was very troubled.  It just did not seem right but for so many circumstances concerning life; this seemed to be the best explanation.   I so much like to think I am in control in the moment but as I have pondered examples such as the life of Christ, the mission of many and their influences in my life, including my wife and children, grandchildren and even ancestors – it began to make sense that some planning had to have taken place.

And so, I have considered two possibilities – that there was some planning but with some wiggle room for on the fly agency.  Or two: everything was carefully laid out and planned – then as you have concluded we are in the process of playing out what we have planned.

I have concluded there are more problems with agency should we face something in this life that was not planned than if we did plan it with much clearer understandings of how things would conclude.  However, I am very open to ideas and thoughts in the matter that address the very heart of agency and our purpose of life.

Thanks again for your post

 

The Traveler

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

Thank you for your reading my posts, considering critical thought, drawing a conclusion and responding.  When I first consider the possibility, you are now considering – I was very troubled.  It just did not seem right but for so many circumstances concerning life; this seemed to be the best explanation.   I so much like to think I am in control in the moment but as I have pondered examples such as the life of Christ, the mission of many and their influences in my life, including my wife and children, grandchildren and even ancestors – it began to make sense that some planning had to have taken place.

And so, I have considered two possibilities – that there was some planning but with some wiggle room for on the fly agency.  Or two: everything was carefully laid out and planned – then as you have concluded we are in the process of playing out what we have planned.

I have concluded there are more problems with agency should we face something in this life that was not planned than if we did plan it with much clearer understandings of how things would conclude.  However, I am very open to ideas and thoughts in the matter that address the very heart of agency and our purpose of life.

Thanks again for your post

 

The Traveler

“All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.”

In these verses, agency (freedom) is juxtaposed to condemnation. We obtain freedom in receiving God, and condemnation in rejecting Him. This was the case in the pre-mortal sphere, and it continues to be the case in the mortal sphere. We exercise our agency (freedom) in progress and expansion into a greater sphere, and exercise our condemnation in diminishment and stagnation, forfeiting the “fulness” and being placed in a lesser sphere instead.

“For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; …The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.”

In these verses, continuing the thought from the first set, the spirit cannot defile (nor cleanse) the temple from a choice made in the pre-mortal state simply because the sphere in which the defiling (or cleansing) is to be chosen and carried out has not been realized, and the spirit has not yet been placed into it. There is no relevant "existence" because there is no placement. This is the reason “men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.” They are not condemned until they reach the age of accountability and defile the temple. Likewise, the spirit (with the aid of the Spirit) cannot cleanse the temple before either occupies the sphere in which this can be done.

Edited March 24, 2017 by CV75

[Traveler]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

“All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.”

In these verses, agency (freedom) is juxtaposed to condemnation. We obtain freedom in receiving God, and condemnation in rejecting Him. This was the case in the pre-mortal sphere, and it continues to be the case in the mortal sphere. We exercise our agency (freedom) in progress and expansion into a greater sphere, and exercise our condemnation in diminishment and stagnation, forfeiting the “fulness” and being placed in a lesser sphere instead.

“For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; …The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.”

In these verses, continuing the thought from the first set, the spirit cannot defile (nor cleanse) the temple from a choice made in the pre-mortal state simply because the sphere in which the defiling (or cleansing) is to be chosen and carried out has not been realized, and the spirit has not yet been placed into it. There is no relevant "existence" because there is no placement. This is the reason “men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.” They are not condemned until they reach the age of accountability and defile the temple. Likewise, the spirit (with the aid of the Spirit) cannot cleanse the temple before either occupies the sphere in which this can be done.

If you are saying that our intelligence, from the beginning was drawn inexorably to light or darkness (a specific Kingdom) I am inclined to agree – but the question I have for you.  Is there anything that could override the destiny of an intent of our agency as it existed in the beginning to a specific kingdom – one way or another?

 

The Traveler

[CV75]

19 hours ago, Traveler said:

If you are saying that our intelligence, from the beginning was drawn inexorably to light or darkness (a specific Kingdom) I am inclined to agree – but the question I have for you.  Is there anything that could override the destiny of an intent of our agency as it existed in the beginning to a specific kingdom – one way or another?

The Traveler

I’m not sure I framed in that way, but that intelligence cannot act (choose) in a sphere in which God has not placed it or yet placed it. The spirit of a man cannot choose in a mortal sphere when he has not been placed in it, and his choices in a pre-mortal sphere can only qualify him to progress into the next sphere, and he can only do so once God deems he is ready to proceed.

Each sphere has bounds and conditions, so our choices in one may not always pan out in the next. That is why even after this life there are angles standing as sentinels to pass, and a judgement and so forth.

“Inexorable” (impossible to stop, prevent, persuade or change) and “destiny” to me conveys the absence of choice, which is antithetical to both agency and the teaching that with God all things are possible. This state occurs only after the last day of judgement, and for those for whom no other options for freedom are available, and whom God has placed in their permanent sphere. I see no destiny to override, but enticement and choices to do well can certainly be overridden by those to do evil (and vice versa).

I’m not sure how one’s intent in one sphere is inexorably guaranteed or destined to persist in a higher estate. Again, the intelligence is free to act (and act differently) according to each different sphere in which he is placed. The spirit may enter a body and be innocent, but the nature of mortality can entice him to change that. And obviously a spirit in the premortal sphere is going to act differently than a spirit in the mortal sphere—too many variables have changed to expect him not to, even if his choices are in line with the light of Christ.

As to whether some pre-mortal spirits intended to return from the mortal probation only to be removed from the Father’s presence after judgement to inherit a lesser kingdom: it doesn’t seem to make sense that they would intend to sin in mortality and envision or assume a lesser kingdom as the trade-off. Be that at is may and assuming God would yet then place them in a sphere that is designed for the exaltation of His children, they might also repent in this life and become exalted after all, for they are free to act according to the options, bounds and conditions available in this sphere.

[person0]

Lets consider the OP's question from an unusually technical point of view:

Imagine you are a programmer and you design a program that shows either a happy face or a sad face on the computer screen at the press of a button, and alternates every time.  You, the designer have established that the program will do one or the other, every single time, and you know exactly which one and you know each image will display exactly 50% of the time if repeated infinitely.  In this scenario you have determined and limited the choices of the program and it has no other option but to follow the course you have designated.  You have determined both the options as well as the outcome.

Now imagine that an unknown is introduced, a self-directed intelligence.  Lets say you can attach this intelligence to be the determining factor as to which image is shown but all else remains the same.  You have determined the options but not the outcome because the self-directed intelligence determines the outcome and you do not control it.  You can not even make sure that each image shows up 50% of the time because you have no control over the intelligence making the decision.

However, assume you watch the program run connected to this intelligence an infinite number of times.  You would probably start to notice patterns and may eventually be able to determine with great accuracy which face will show.

Now imagine that rather than a binary choice of happy face or sad face you update your program to have access to an infinite pool of images from which to choose.  Now, in this scenario you have even less control.  Not only are you not making the decision, you are also not determining the possible outcomes either.  However, after an infinite repetition of the program you may still be able to determine with great accuracy which image will be displayed, and this will be based on knowledge over time.

Now link your program to millions of other programs that are also linked to their own self determining intelligence, you now start to notice that the initial program behaves differently because the image it displays is now somehow affected by the ones displayed by the other programs.  What started out as complete control has now fallen entirely apart and you know absolutely nothing about whats going on.  Ahhhhhhh!

Now imagine you are God.

You are omniscient, and omnipresent.  You know each and every one of the intelligences, you know everything about them.  You know the entirety of the infinite pool of images that are available to be displayed.  You know how each self determining intelligence will act or react to every other intelligence, and you know this reaction down to every last one of the infinite images.  Does the fact that you have this knowledge mean you are the one who determines what image appears?  Sure you wrote the program, but do you control what happens?  No, you do not.  Your infinite knowledge does not determine the outcome, it merely anticipates it.  When something happens you already knew it would, based on knowledge, not based on determination.

Our relationship to God is the same.  He created the Plan of Salvation, it is his program, but the plan gives us each direct access to infinite choices at every moment, each of us are self determining intelligences. We each decide which of the infinite choice possibilities we will enact at any given time.  However, God knows everything about our decision making process and already knows what we will choose at all times.  This is not because he has determined it will happen, but instead because he has knowledge sufficient to tell him what will happen, before it happens.

If you know that heating an egg in a skillet will cook an egg and make it edible, did you cause that reality to be, did you create the physical laws to enable it? Or do you simply have knowledge that it will happen?  Likewise God has all possible knowledge and does not need to pre-determine our outcome.  When necessary he can intervene to promote an outcome without directly causing it because we even can self-direct our reactions to him and his intervention (but he knows what we will do).  So even when he appeared to Saul of Tarsus, and others throughout history there was no determination, simply motivation.

Just another way to consider the same thing many others have posted in hopes to contribute something new to the conversation. :-)

[Traveler]

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 11:48 AM, CV75 said:

I’m not sure I framed in that way, but that intelligence cannot act (choose) in a sphere in which God has not placed it or yet placed it. The spirit of a man cannot choose in a mortal sphere when he has not been placed in it, and his choices in a pre-mortal sphere can only qualify him to progress into the next sphere, and he can only do so once God deems he is ready to proceed.

 

Each sphere has bounds and conditions, so our choices in one may not always pan out in the next. That is why even after this life there are angles standing as sentinels to pass, and a judgement and so forth.

 

“Inexorable” (impossible to stop, prevent, persuade or change) and “destiny” to me conveys the absence of choice, which is antithetical to both agency and the teaching that with God all things are possible. This state occurs only after the last day of judgement, and for those for whom no other options for freedom are available, and whom God has placed in their permanent sphere. I see no destiny to override, but enticement and choices to do well can certainly be overridden by those to do evil (and vice versa).

 

I’m not sure how one’s intent in one sphere is inexorably guaranteed or destined to persist in a higher estate. Again, the intelligence is free to act (and act differently) according to each different sphere in which he is placed. The spirit may enter a body and be innocent, but the nature of mortality can entice him to change that. And obviously a spirit in the premortal sphere is going to act differently than a spirit in the mortal sphere—too many variables have changed to expect him not to, even if his choices are in line with the light of Christ.

 

As to whether some pre-mortal spirits intended to return from the mortal probation only to be removed from the Father’s presence after judgement to inherit a lesser kingdom: it doesn’t seem to make sense that they would intend to sin in mortality and envision or assume a lesser kingdom as the trade-off. Be that at is may and assuming God would yet then place them in a sphere that is designed for the exaltation of His children, they might also repent in this life and become exalted after all, for they are free to act according to the options, bounds and conditions available in this sphere.

 

 

Thank you for your response.  I would like to hear your opinion.  The idea as I understand agency is that we choose our destiny (Kingdom of glory).  If there is something outside of us that “changes” our choice to something else or a different kingdom of glory – I do not see how we can, in any way believe; we exercised agency.  Do you believe we have the power by our agency to choose the Celestial Kingdom or do you believe G-d will judge us and send is somewhere else contrary to our desire?  Did we lack the intelligence to determine, by our agency in the pre-existence, which kingdom we would choose as our destiny?  I do not think we know that much about what we are doing in this life.

As a corresponding note; a famous critic of Christianity said that Christians are people that spend their entire lives striving to be accepted into heaven with no actual concept of what they are striving for or what they will be doing when they get there.  Joseph Smith mentioned that if we could view even the telestial Kingdom and its glory we would sacrifice ourselves just to get there.   How can we use our agency in this life to obtain a kingdom for which we have no rational understanding?  What is agency and do we have the power to determine our destiny?  Or does G-d determine our destiny and tell us what Kingdom we must inherit?

 

The Traveler

Edited March 27, 2017 by Traveler

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

Thank you for your response.  I would like to hear your opinion.  The idea as I understand agency is that we choose our destiny (Kingdom of glory).  If there is something outside of us that “changes” our choice to something else or a different kingdom of glory – I do not see how we can, in any way believe; we exercised agency.  Do you believe we have the power by our agency to choose the Celestial Kingdom or do you believe G-d will judge us and send is somewhere else contrary to our desire?  Did we lack the intelligence to determine, by our agency in the pre-existence, which kingdom we would choose as our destiny?  I do not think we know that much about what we are doing in this life.

As a corresponding note; a famous critic of Christianity said that Christians are people that spend their entire lives striving to be accepted into heaven with no actual concept of what they are striving for or what they will be doing when they get there.  Joseph Smith mentioned that if we could view even the telestial Kingdom and its glory we would sacrifice ourselves just to get there.   How can we use our agency in this life to obtain a kingdom for which we have no rational understanding?  What is agency and do we have the power to determine our destiny?  Or does G-d determine our destiny and tell us what Kingdom we must inherit?

 

The Traveler

In my opinion, we choose our destination (kingdom of glory), and do so incrementally (line upon line, etc.) in a succession of good and poor choices. Each time we make a choice do so under the principle in D&C 88:36-39. By the enabling power of the Atonement and grace we can both advance from kingdom to kingdom and repent when we backslide. Ultimately we reach our destination on the Lord’s timetable per the plan of happiness, and land there upon the final judgment (only He decides that, for He is the only one who places intelligence in any sphere).

I do not believe God interferes with or changes our choices, but He does place us in spheres we are ready to make choices and act within. We show our willingness and readiness to act by the choices we make in a lesser sphere or estate and so are granted access to the next. By virtue of His light He certainly influences our choices, and by virtue of His power He may alter the negative impact of our choices on others so as to not rob them of His influence upon their choices.

Strictly spiritually speaking, I believe we have the agency to choose to live the laws that prepare us for life in the Celestial Kingdom. We do this according to the light we possess, and ideally this grows as time goes on. I think our “power” is a combination of our use faith and the Lord’s use of grace in our behalf.

I also believe God will judge us in the end when there is no more room to repent and realign any of our remaining contrary desires with His desire to exalt us.

I think in the pre-existence sphere, we all had the good-faith intention to return to Heavenly Father, become exalted and live with Him forever. In this present sphere, that can change with our expanded sphere for action and asserting our faith between two veils. With faith, we can perceive the spiritual laws of the many kingdoms and make those choices. Related to this, I think we grow in intelligence (D&C 130:18-19; 88:32), so the obedient will have more intelligence now than we did in the pre-existence. In the pre-existence, I believe we certainly knew what we might receive, and were willing to enjoy it. But things change, which is why we “preach naught but repentance.” (D&C 19:21).

I’m not sure what you mean by, “I do not think we know that much about what we are doing in this life.” We may not have seen the Celestial Kingdom, but Joseph Smith did and we have faith in his revelation and everything he instructed pertaining to how we are to prepare ourselves to arrive there. We can feel the Spirit of the Celestial Kingdom as we live worthy of His constant companionship, and more and more fully as we are cleansed and purified, justified and sanctified. I believe the revelations and our personal experience offer sufficient rational basis for understanding that which we are invited into and to partake of, but faith and other “irrational” processes are just as valid and essential.

You posed two other questions from the Christian critics: “What is agency and do we have the power to determine our destiny?  Or does G-d determine our destiny and tell us what Kingdom we must inherit?” Generally speaking, the answers are, “Yes and no; it depends,” and “The two questions are not dichotomous.” I think I answered these more fully above, and hopefully I’ve sorted through those semantics, but please let me know if I didn’t.

Edited March 27, 2017 by CV75

[Rob Osborn]

14 hours ago, lds_person_0 said:

Lets consider the OP's question from an unusually technical point of view:

Imagine you are a programmer and you design a program that shows either a happy face or a sad face on the computer screen at the press of a button, and alternates every time.  You, the designer have established that the program will do one or the other, every single time, and you know exactly which one and you know each image will display exactly 50% of the time if repeated infinitely.  In this scenario you have determined and limited the choices of the program and it has no other option but to follow the course you have designated.  You have determined both the options as well as the outcome.

Now imagine that an unknown is introduced, a self-directed intelligence.  Lets say you can attach this intelligence to be the determining factor as to which image is shown but all else remains the same.  You have determined the options but not the outcome because the self-directed intelligence determines the outcome and you do not control it.  You can not even make sure that each image shows up 50% of the time because you have no control over the intelligence making the decision.

However, assume you watch the program run connected to this intelligence an infinite number of times.  You would probably start to notice patterns and may eventually be able to determine with great accuracy which face will show.

Now imagine that rather than a binary choice of happy face or sad face you update your program to have access to an infinite pool of images from which to choose.  Now, in this scenario you have even less control.  Not only are you not making the decision, you are also not determining the possible outcomes either.  However, after an infinite repetition of the program you may still be able to determine with great accuracy which image will be displayed, and this will be based on knowledge over time.

Now link your program to millions of other programs that are also linked to their own self determining intelligence, you now start to notice that the initial program behaves differently because the image it displays is now somehow affected by the ones displayed by the other programs.  What started out as complete control has now fallen entirely apart and you know absolutely nothing about whats going on.  Ahhhhhhh!

Now imagine you are God.

You are omniscient, and omnipresent.  You know each and every one of the intelligences, you know everything about them.  You know the entirety of the infinite pool of images that are available to be displayed.  You know how each self determining intelligence will act or react to every other intelligence, and you know this reaction down to every last one of the infinite images.  Does the fact that you have this knowledge mean you are the one who determines what image appears?  Sure you wrote the program, but do you control what happens?  No, you do not.  Your infinite knowledge does not determine the outcome, it merely anticipates it.  When something happens you already knew it would, based on knowledge, not based on determination.

Our relationship to God is the same.  He created the Plan of Salvation, it is his program, but the plan gives us each direct access to infinite choices at every moment, each of us are self determining intelligences. We each decide which of the infinite choice possibilities we will enact at any given time.  However, God knows everything about our decision making process and already knows what we will choose at all times.  This is not because he has determined it will happen, but instead because he has knowledge sufficient to tell him what will happen, before it happens.

If you know that heating an egg in a skillet will cook an egg and make it edible, did you cause that reality to be, did you create the physical laws to enable it? Or do you simply have knowledge that it will happen?  Likewise God has all possible knowledge and does not need to pre-determine our outcome.  When necessary he can intervene to promote an outcome without directly causing it because we even can self-direct our reactions to him and his intervention (but he knows what we will do).  So even when he appeared to Saul of Tarsus, and others throughout history there was no determination, simply motivation.

Just another way to consider the same thing many others have posted in hopes to contribute something new to the conversation. :-)

I agree and disagree at the same time. God is, in a way, a master programmer. He even knows us very well. But, in likewise fashion, we ourselves also know ourselves quite well. Just as we can narrow down choices and options, God also can do the same. God may have a greater knowledge of what choice we may lean towards but there still remains a certain amount of uncertainty in a lot of choices we make. I do not think there is a perfect equation, so to speak, as to what, why or how we choose the things we choose. For instance, we may have 10 separate instances that are very similar and we may react the same or similar 90% of the time but then 10% of the time we choose an alternate choice with no rational explanation why leading up to it. I call it the precipice of choice. We arrive at these instances sometimes when we honestly cannot make up our minds or do something rather or seemingly rationally that makes the end choice obvious. Choosing which toppings to put on your ice cream for example is one of those instances. If we let our subconscious do it for us, and it certainly can and does at times, then it may be obvious as to why be ause we do have our own sort of autopilot system. But, when we are in full controll and we certainly cant decide, there remains an uncertainty in correctly predicting our choice. We may sort over a set amount of impulses that can influence our choice but in the end, even those influences do not perfectly dictate choice. The enigma of "choice" is rather peculiar with intelligences in that there isnt a mathematical algorithm that can duplicate this process. I tried to explain earlier that it truly is possible for human intelligence to intentionally  create randomness/unpredictability in things we choose and act upon. Because this phenomenon exists, there will always be a certain degree of uncertainty in how, when, and why we make choices.

of a side note is what makes something funny? I have long thought about this and it may have something to do with that same part of our brain that connects various bits of information. But, the enigma of comedy is interesting because its only our own ability to choose to make it comical or not. Theres no rational explanation why something should be funny.

 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Rob Osborn

[person0]

4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I agree and disagree at the same time. God is, in a way, a master programmer. He even knows us very well. But, in likewise fashion, we ourselves also know ourselves quite well. Just as we can narrow down choices and options, God also can do the same. God may have a greater knowledge of what choice we may lean towards but there still remains a certain amount of uncertainty in a lot of choices we make. I do not think there is a perfect equation, so to speak, as to what, why or how we choose the things we choose. For instance, we may have 10 separate instances that are very similar and we may react the same or similar 90% of the time but then 10% of the time we choose an alternate choice with no rational explanation why leading up to it. I call it the precipice of choice. We arrive at these instances sometimes when we honestly cannot make up our minds or do something rather or seemingly rationally that makes the end choice obvious. Choosing which toppings to put on your ice cream for example is one of those instances. If we let our subconscious do it for us, and it certainly can and does at times, then it may be obvious as to why be ause we do have our own sort of autopilot system. But, when we are in full controll and we certainly cant decide, there remains an uncertainty in correctly predicting our choice. We may sort over a set amount of impulses that can influence our choice but in the end, even those influences do not perfectly dictate choice. The enigma of "choice" is rather peculiar with intelligences in that there isnt a mathematical algorithm that can duplicate this process. I tried to explain earlier that it truly is possible for human intelligence to intentionally  create randomness/unpredictability in things we choose and act upon. Because this phenomenon exists, there will always be a certain degree of uncertainty in how, when, and why we make choices.

of a side note is what makes something funny? I have long thought about this and it may have something to do with that same part of our brain that connects various bits of information. But, the enigma of comedy is interesting because its only our own ability to choose to make it comical or not. Theres no rational explanation why something should be funny.

 

Forgive me if I am misreading your post but it sounds as though you are suggesting that there may be a fractional number of times when God does not know what our decision will be because of the possible randomness in the decision.  If this is the case I disagree.  I believe it is harder for us to comprehend the fact that He knows what we will do 100% of the time because of the fact that he knows us infinitely more than we know ourselves at this point.  Kind of like a chess Grand Master's ability to perceive his opponents moves in advance except to the an infinite degree of perfection. 

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, lds_person_0 said:

Forgive me if I am misreading your post but it sounds as though you are suggesting that there may be a fractional number of times when God does not know what our decision will be because of the possible randomness in the decision.  If this is the case I disagree.  I believe it is harder for us to comprehend the fact that He knows what we will do 100% of the time because of the fact that he knows us infinitely more than we know ourselves at this point.  Kind of like a chess Grand Master's ability to perceive his opponents moves in advance except to the an infinite degree of perfection. 

I have come to think that the reason G-d know our destiny is because we told him our plan for mortality before we were born.  I disagree with @Rob Osborn becuse he believes randomness has power over us - it simply seems that way to me because it appears to me that he believes is in the soulless g-d of randomness that controls the universe so no other intelligence, force or anyone can know the enough of the truth of anyone’s destiny.  Those that achieve anything do so by random chance – but I do not believe randomness exist – I believe that whatever we mistake as randomness is and illusion that has intelligence we do not see - in control of it.

 

 

The Traveler

[person0]

2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

. . . I believe that whatever we mistake as randomness is and illusion that has intelligence we do not see - in control of it.

The Traveler

I am fairly certain I agree with this statement.  It was actually part of my initial thought process when writing my post on this topic.  I think randomness is a human perception of knowable events that are based on knowledge we do not have.  If you go to https://www.random.org/ and read their description of how the numbers are generated and then consider that God knows the entirety of the complex process behind what creates the "atmospheric noise", then it no longer becomes random.

Similarly miracles cease to be magical and mystical once you comprehend what constitutes atoms and molecules and consider that rearranging electrons protons and neutrons would result in different elements and molecules:  Therefore water becomes wine not by unknown magic but by a calculated rearranging of particles.

[Rob Osborn]

5 hours ago, lds_person_0 said:

Forgive me if I am misreading your post but it sounds as though you are suggesting that there may be a fractional number of times when God does not know what our decision will be because of the possible randomness in the decision.  If this is the case I disagree.  I believe it is harder for us to comprehend the fact that He knows what we will do 100% of the time because of the fact that he knows us infinitely more than we know ourselves at this point.  Kind of like a chess Grand Master's ability to perceive his opponents moves in advance except to the an infinite degree of perfection. 

Do you think its possible to truly create a random set of numbers you decide on?

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I have come to think that the reason G-d know our destiny is because we told him our plan for mortality before we were born.  I disagree with @Rob Osborn becuse he believes randomness has power over us - it simply seems that way to me because it appears to me that he believes is in the soulless g-d of randomness that controls the universe so no other intelligence, force or anyone can know the enough of the truth of anyone’s destiny.  Those that achieve anything do so by random chance – but I do not believe randomness exist – I believe that whatever we mistake as randomness is and illusion that has intelligence we do not see - in control of it.

 

 

The Traveler

Randomness doesnt have power over us, its just part of our ability when we so choose.

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Traveler said:

I have come to think that the reason G-d know our destiny is because we told him our plan for mortality before we were born.  I disagree with @Rob Osborn becuse he believes randomness has power over us - it simply seems that way to me because it appears to me that he believes is in the soulless g-d of randomness that controls the universe so no other intelligence, force or anyone can know the enough of the truth of anyone’s destiny.  Those that achieve anything do so by random chance – but I do not believe randomness exist – I believe that whatever we mistake as randomness is and illusion that has intelligence we do not see - in control of it.

 

 

The Traveler

I'm only repeating this idea because it shows the difference between destination and destiny. In the pre-mortal sphere, we wanted to become like God (our destination). We were given and agreed to a plan that, if followed in the next sphere, would get us there. The plan does not dictate the realization of choices and actions the next sphere (that would be destiny). Rather, our choices and actions in one sphere prepared us for the next sphere, regardless of any planning. The reason for this is that agency in one sphere does not define or dictate the agency in the next sphere: every sphere has its own independent scope of independent agency. Only God advances us from one sphere to the next in His judgement of how we have exercised our agency to the point of qualifying us to meet the standards required.

Edited March 28, 2017 by CV75

[Traveler]

10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Randomness doesnt have power over us, its just part of our ability when we so choose.

You and I have a different understanding of what random is.  The closest reference I can find in scripture is – “Behold matter unorganized”.  For me an ability comes only through discipline.  That which is random is the enemy of discipline or as we are counseled by Nephi when he said everything has it opposite – random would therefore be the opposite of ability and discipline.   I would also point out that the scriptural term of disciple has the same root meaning as discipline.  Anciently the concept of random was called chaos – which means out of or outside of control (discipline).

It may be semantics but I do not see any advantage to or ability in chaotic randomness or anything subject to chaotic randomness.  If there is an advantage in introducing randomness to an intelligent being – it would be to create confusion in order to gain power and control over that intelligence.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

17 minutes ago, Traveler said:

You and I have a different understanding of what random is.  The closest reference I can find in scripture is – “Behold matter unorganized”.  For me an ability comes only through discipline.  That which is random is the enemy of discipline or as we are counseled by Nephi when he said everything has it opposite – random would therefore be the opposite of ability and discipline.   I would also point out that the scriptural term of disciple has the same root meaning as discipline.  Anciently the concept of random was called chaos – which means out of or outside of control (discipline).

It may be semantics but I do not see any advantage to or ability in chaotic randomness or anything subject to chaotic randomness.  If there is an advantage in introducing randomness to an intelligent being – it would be to create confusion in order to gain power and control over that intelligence.

 

The Traveler

You are thinking of the word in computer terms. Let me use different language. How about "unpredictable"? As intelligences, we have the ability to make choices that are sometimes unpredictable. We even have the ability to surprise ourselves using this tool.

[person0]

8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

You are thinking of the word in computer terms. Let me use different language. How about "unpredictable"? As intelligences, we have the ability to make choices that are sometimes unpredictable. We even have the ability to surprise ourselves using this tool.

Unpredictable to whom?
If I usually eat a hamburger for lunch but today I "unpredictably" decide to eat a chicken sandwich, is it really an unpredictable decision?  I mean do I walk away from the service counter saying, 'wow, I'm eating a chicken sandwich today, who could have guessed that?!'

I could imagine this happening to someone with severe dissociative identity disorder where one personality handles ordering the food and a different personality handles eating it .  However, aside from that there is always a thought process behind the decision that is made and to an omniscient being such as God who knows the entirety of everything about you, I believe he can predict with 100% accuracy the decision you will make because he understands even the process behind what you consider to be 'unpredictability'.

Could you provide a brief example of a real life situation where you made an unpredictable decision that you believe God would not have foreknown?

[Traveler]

28 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

You are thinking of the word in computer terms. Let me use different language. How about "unpredictable"? As intelligences, we have the ability to make choices that are sometimes unpredictable. We even have the ability to surprise ourselves using this tool.

In the scientific community intelligence is define by the ability to learn and change behavior or outcome.  I see your definition of “unpredictable” as the opposite of what I see as intelligent.   I believe intelligence is very predictable – If I think of something as being unpredictable – I believe that to be more the definition of stupidity not intelligence. 

In general – I believe goodness, compassion, love, honor and other attributes of light and truth all to be predictable.  I also believe evil, hate, selfishness and pride also to be very predictable.  What I do not understand – is not so much your ideas of randomness but where and how you came to such conclusions.  But if I were to think of something unorganized – I would think that such would be more associated with evil or something not intelligent (stupid).  I see intelligence as something that has organization and therefore is predictable.

I see everything that exist being “governed” by law.  That which is subject to law is defined and “under” that law and thus predictable.  In the D&C we are told there is no space in which there is no Kingdom and there is no kingdom where there is no law.  I honestly believe that you think something to be random because you do not understand the law by which it is governed? 

It may be all my problem – but I do not understand how you have come to the conclusion of unpredictability. 

 

The Traveler

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

You are thinking of the word in computer terms. Let me use different language. How about "unpredictable"? As intelligences, we have the ability to make choices that are sometimes unpredictable. We even have the ability to surprise ourselves using this tool.

This is interesting because God knows all the laws. In addition, there is no randomness in the following sense: “there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.” (D&C 88:37-38). Because God knows all the laws of all the kingdoms in all the spaces, and he places us in those spaces, He can predict everything… except that which He gave us to independently use in those spaces, which is our agency.

Thus His discovery and disappointment when He says, “The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency; And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood” (Moses 7:32-33).

I think “foreknowledge” is another word for faith, and this is what God possesses in perfection; perfect knowledge also. He knows all the laws and has foreknowledge of (faith in) what we can do when left independent in a sphere where Hid light shines in darkness. He can even predict things, but not the human agency which in His integrity has given us to use independently. I think one great example of this is when He separated Himself from the Son during those last moments on the cross.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

In the scientific community intelligence is define by the ability to learn and change behavior or outcome.  I see your definition of “unpredictable” as the opposite of what I see as intelligent.   I believe intelligence is very predictable – If I think of something as being unpredictable – I believe that to be more the definition of stupidity not intelligence. 

In general – I believe goodness, compassion, love, honor and other attributes of light and truth all to be predictable.  I also believe evil, hate, selfishness and pride also to be very predictable.  What I do not understand – is not so much your ideas of randomness but where and how you came to such conclusions.  But if I were to think of something unorganized – I would think that such would be more associated with evil or something not intelligent (stupid).  I see intelligence as something that has organization and therefore is predictable.

I see everything that exist being “governed” by law.  That which is subject to law is defined and “under” that law and thus predictable.  In the D&C we are told there is no space in which there is no Kingdom and there is no kingdom where there is no law.  I honestly believe that you think something to be random because you do not understand the law by which it is governed? 

It may be all my problem – but I do not understand how you have come to the conclusion of unpredictability. 

 

The Traveler

Compared to God, we may very well act stupidly or unpredictably (Abraham 3;17-19)! I think we do this when we do not live up to the privileges our agency affords. When we choose Him, it is very clear to Him that we are following His course, but when we do not and go outside the laws which He has placed in our sphere, He can only watch us walk by the light of our fire (Isaiah 50:11): we “have no promise.” (D&C 82:10; 130:20-21).

I think element may act randomly, especially when unorganized, because it has no agency and is acted upon the unorganizing forces at hand, which we certainly see all around us (such as entropy, which is a law).

[CV75]

1 hour ago, lds_person_0 said:

Could you provide a brief example of a real life situation where you made an unpredictable decision that you believe God would not have foreknown?

One way of looking at this question is to consider examples where, with all that God has done to invite and entice us to do good, that we opted not to. In His foreknowledge (faith), He truly expects us to respond. He knows we are capable of it, yet we do not. He also knows He has placed us in a sphere where we are to act independently, so I'm sure His expectations are not all He knows.

[person0]

Just now, CV75 said:

One way of looking at this question is to consider examples where, with all that God has done to invite and entice us to do good, that we opted not to. In His foreknowledge (faith), He truly expects us to respond. He knows we are capable of it, yet we do not. He also knows He has placed us in a sphere where we are to act independently, so I'm sure His expectations are not all He knows.

God expects us to respond, but he already knows exactly how we will respond.  God's knowledge is perfect and as a result his faith is dormant in all things:

Quote

Alma 32:34
And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant . . .

  If God is able to show Moses, Nephi, John, and others, a true and exact vision of future events, how can this be done if he doesn't already know 100% what will happen?  He does know, but the fact that he has this knowledge has no bearing on the reality that we are still the ones who make the choice.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, lds_person_0 said:

Unpredictable to whom?
If I usually eat a hamburger for lunch but today I "unpredictably" decide to eat a chicken sandwich, is it really an unpredictable decision?  I mean do I walk away from the service counter saying, 'wow, I'm eating a chicken sandwich today, who could have guessed that?!'

I could imagine this happening to someone with severe dissociative identity disorder where one personality handles ordering the food and a different personality handles eating it .  However, aside from that there is always a thought process behind the decision that is made and to an omniscient being such as God who knows the entirety of everything about you, I believe he can predict with 100% accuracy the decision you will make because he understands even the process behind what you consider to be 'unpredictability'.

Could you provide a brief example of a real life situation where you made an unpredictable decision that you believe God would not have foreknown?

Okay, so lets say I am at a gravel pit with billions of small but all similar rocks and I tell myself that today I am going to pick a rock from somewhere in the pit, it doesnt matter where or what rock I pick, but that the one I end up with I will then make my special rock. Now, as I wander around I may have a myriad of impulses to choose a thousand different rocks from around the pit, and so I do. Then with my chosen rocks I then reach my hand in without really noticing or caring or looking and pick one random rock. Then at this point I have the opportunity to either decide to choose it or put it back and pick another. I can do this for as many times as I want until finally I choose one.  This represents a scenerio where its almost wholly unpredictable which rock out of billions of similar rocks I will choose before ever setting foot in the gravel pit.