Can there be free will while God knows all things?

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Rob, we can't agree when it comes to putting limits on God.  In God, everything is possible.  @Vort's "favorite" riddle is to ask if God is so powerful that He can create a rock so heavy even He can't lift it.  God works with the laws of nature so that if there is such a thing as something with infinite mass and that it can be lifted, then God can create a rock with infinite mass and still be able to lift it.  But that's impossible, people exclaim.  The limit is in man's understanding of the laws of nature.  We've advanced so far as a human species in our understanding of God's creation but we haven't yet advanced so far as to define something with infinite mass and another thing of infinite strength that can lift it.   

Btw,

We have hashed this out already but there is no such thing as the possibility of a rock with infinite weight nor of a person with infinite strength. We may give God the attribute of infinite, but its just a way of saying he is unlimited. The more proper understanding would be to say that God could create a rock that no matter how heavy it ended up he would have the strength to lift it. One cannot create (finish something with defined parameters) something with either a size or weight of infinity, that is against law to do such and is an oxymoron anyway.

[anatess2]

32 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

If we both agree that God works within laws then we must therefore also both agree that God cannot possibly do something outside of those laws he works within. This then means that all things being possible with God is indeed true as long as the understanding is modified to mean "within Gods laws, all things are possible". 

Because we know that God too has his own reckoning of time and that it takes time, as defined by reckoning and sequencial events, then it is obvious that part of Gods laws that he works with is the reality that God too has a past, where things happened, a present, which state he is currently in, and a future of which has yet to unfold.

Yes.  God works within God's laws.  For example, God cannot sin.  Because sinning is against God's laws.  Now, we know this because it has been revealed to us what Sin means.

Now, as shown throughout the previous pages, you and some of us here have a different understanding of what that reckoning of time means.  What eternity means.  Etc. etc.  Sin - there's no question what that means.  At least not within this thread.  Therefore, all it is we're doing here, is debating within our limited understanding of what Time means to which we try to plug God into.  And as I've tried to express my own understanding of it, we are characters in a comic book.  We are working through our passage of time through the story.  God is outside of the comic book and he can flip pages forward and backward through the story as it is laid out right there infront of Him which makes it all Present to Him.  Now, whether he progresses forward or backward within HIS own time - being in his own comicbook - we don't know.  That's part of that thing in our Articles of Faith - there are things which have not been revealed pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

And that's really all I want to say about that.  So, you can carry on in your discussions with the other people on this thread about expanding on our understanding of Time.  To me, it is irrelevant because nobody can deny that we don't know everything there is to know about Time outside of our mortal construct.

Edited March 13, 2017 by anatess2

[Rob Osborn]

6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Yes.  God works within God's laws.  For example, God cannot sin.  Because sinning is against God's laws.  Now, we know this because it has been revealed to us what Sin means.

Now, as shown throughout the previous pages, you and some of us here have a different understanding of what that reckoning of time means.  What eternity means.  Etc. etc.  Sin - there's no question what that means.  At least not within this thread.  Therefore, all it is we're doing here, is debating within our limited understanding of what Time means to which we try to plug God into.  And as I've tried to express my own understanding of it, we are characters in a comic book.  We are working through our passage of time through the story.  God is outside of the comic book and he can flip pages forward and backward through the story as it is laid out right there infront of Him which makes it all Present to Him.  Now, whether he progresses forward or backward within HIS own time - being in his own comicbook - we don't know.  That's part of that thing in our Articles of Faith - there are things which have not been revealed pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

 

Well, I dont agree that our future is already set in stone as you say with God. It creates too many problems of which we have already discussed.

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, I dont agree that our future is already set in stone as you say with God. It creates too many problems of which we have already discussed.

Yes, and I have told you that it only is a problem with creatio ex nihilo teaching.  Which pretty much is another evidence of the truth of the restored gospel.

Edited March 13, 2017 by anatess2

[Rob Osborn]

18 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Yes, and I have told you that it only is a problem with creatio ex nihilo teaching.  Which pretty much is another evidence of the truth of the restored gospel.

That has nothing to do with what we are discussing.

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

That has nothing to do with what we are discussing.

Sigh.

[Colirio]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

 

Because we know that God too has his own reckoning of time and that it takes time, as defined by reckoning and sequencial events, then it is obvious that part of Gods laws that he works with is the reality that God too has a past, where things happened, a present, which state he is currently in, and a future of which has yet to unfold.

Rob, again, the scriptures do not agree with you.

 

God's references to time are to help us, as mortals with limited understanding, be able to comprehend. 

 

Alma clearly defines it: 

 

Alma 40:8 Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men. 

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Colirio

[Colirio]

8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Sigh.

Anatess, your avatar fits this statement perfectly! 

</ off topic>

Edited March 13, 2017 by Colirio

[Vort]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

@Vort's "favorite" riddle is to ask if God is so powerful that He can create a rock so heavy even He can't lift it.  God works with the laws of nature so that if there is such a thing as something with infinite mass and that it can be lifted, then God can create a rock with infinite mass and still be able to lift it.  But that's impossible, people exclaim.  The limit is in man's understanding of the laws of nature.  We've advanced so far as a human species in our understanding of God's creation but we haven't yet advanced so far as to define something with infinite mass and another thing of infinite strength that can lift it.   That's our limitation, not God's.

To clarify: The point of my "riddle" is that the question itself is meaningless. It's like saying, "Can God divide by zero?" or "Can God cause that a person exist at a certain point in space at a certain moment, and simultaneously cause that the person not exist at that point in time and space?" These are not questions about God's abilities; they are word games, illustrating that we can string together verbal symbols in a correct syntax and still get nonsense.

As for Rob's point: He is wrong, because he does not comprehend the nature of God, nor the nature of knowledge, nor even (or especially) the nature of agency. But he is also deeply convinced by his own arguments, a self-satisfied position that most people just cannot get past. As long as Rob is not teaching his heretical ideas as LDS doctrine, it makes little difference. Rob believes a wrong thing. So do we all.

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

; they are word games, illustrating that we can string together verbal symbols in a correct syntax and still get nonsense.

How many angels dance on the head of a pin, @Vort?

Just making a point. Agree totally. 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Colirio said:

Rob, again, the scriptures do not agree with you.

 

God's references to time are to help us, as mortals with limited understanding, be able to comprehend. 

 

Alma clearly defines it: 

 

Alma 40:8 Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men. 

 

So, if time is only measured to man why did it take God six days to create the earth.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

To clarify: The point of my "riddle" is that the question itself is meaningless. It's like saying, "Can God divide by zero?" or "Can God cause that a person exist at a certain point in space at a certain moment, and simultaneously cause that the person not exist at that point in time and space?" These are not questions about God's abilities; they are word games, illustrating that we can string together verbal symbols in a correct syntax and still get nonsense.

As for Rob's point: He is wrong, because he does not comprehend the nature of God, nor the nature of knowledge, nor even (or especially) the nature of agency. But he is also deeply convinced by his own arguments, a self-satisfied position that most people just cannot get past. As long as Rob is not teaching his heretical ideas as LDS doctrine, it makes little difference. Rob believes a wrong thing. So do we all.

Funny thing is, all my understanding is backed by scripture and all the known laws of physics. You guys make God out to be some strange hypothetical science fiction entity.

[Colirio]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, if time is only measured to man why did it take God six days to create the earth.

1. Time exists. We are subject to it. 

2. God the Father did not create the Earth alone. Who else helped? Again, when God deals with man, He speaks and associates to their understanding. 

 

EDIT: To help clarify what I mean, Elder Maxwell said: 

"Both space and time are real, not just illusions, but God created them both and is not bound by either. Besides, we mortals make our decisions within our framework of understanding, not God's."(Neal A. Maxwell, Plain and Precious Things, p. 57.) 

 

 

I now counter your question:

Why do you suppose we refer to being married in the temple as being "sealed for TIME and all eternity?" 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Colirio

[Rob Osborn]

43 minutes ago, Colirio said:

1. Time exists. We are subject to it. 

2. God the Father did not create the Earth alone. Who else helped? Again, when God deals with man, He speaks and associates to their understanding. 

 

EDIT: To help clarify what I mean, Elder Maxwell said: 

"Both space and time are real, not just illusions, but God created them both and is not bound by either. Besides, we mortals make our decisions within our framework of understanding, not God's."(Neal A. Maxwell, Plain and Precious Things, p. 57.) 

 

 

I now counter your question:

Why do you suppose we refer to being married in the temple as being "sealed for TIME and all eternity?" 

I would counter back that "time" can and does have different meanings in context. For instance, why is it that the scriptures says that during the millennium time will be no more but in the same verse it says the earth shall exist for a thousand years during that period? Also, why does it speak of the reckonibg of "Gods time" if it doesnt supposedly exist for him?

All this shows me that "time has several different meanings deoending upon context.

[anatess2]

16 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Funny thing is, all my understanding is backed by scripture and all the known laws of physics. You guys make God out to be some strange hypothetical science fiction entity.

All Christian denominations claim that their understanding is backed by scripture and science.  Yet, there are 40 of them that differ from the LDS belief..  All wrong. 

God is not some strange hypothetical science fiction entity.  You make God out to be limited by his own creation and your own understanding.

In any case, it's silly to be talking about laws of physics when we can't even agree on What Is Science.

Edited March 14, 2017 by anatess2

[Rob Osborn]

35 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

All Christian denominations claim that their understanding is backed by scripture and science.  Yet, there are 40 of them that differ from the LDS belief..  All wrong. 

God is not some strange hypothetical science fiction entity.  You make God out to be limited by his own creation and your own understanding.

In any case, it's silly to be talking about laws of physics when we can't even agree on What Is Science.

LDS beliefs are unique because we have a lot more scripture dealing with the nature of God. We are unique because we teach that man is very much like God. 

The scriptures teach us eternal truths. When the scriptures teach that God resides on his own planet and that he has his own reckoning of time I am left to believe that it is true. I am placing no limit on God, just reading the scriptures in the correct light. Why is it that no one wants to address why God has his own reckoning of time? Why is it that God often speaks about past, present, and future events in a very linear fashion? More importantly though, why is it that no one wants to address prophecy and revelation about future events that have multiple outcomes depending upon mans agency? So either God lies or the future really isnt set in stone, its one or the other.

Science is something that we should all agree upon yet people want to keep believing that past, present and future can exist at the same time which nullifies the law of causality in physics. Then, in defense, these same people claim that God cannot have limits and anything is possible. Yet I am the one that gets blamed for not understanding science. Pretty strange!

Even in a hypothetical setting where God could somehow be in a reality outside both space and time where past, present and future events all happen simultaneously, it defies everything about what our doctrine teaches yet fits, ironically, with the majority of other religions. And we are the ones supposed to be LDS.

I work hard at trying to understand both God and his doctrines. It is a topic I have spent my entire adult life seeking earnestly. I have received dreams and visions, I have seen the Lord in them and have learned many teachings concerning the universe. This is not done to brag or claim rights to truth, I just have worked diligently in seeking the truth and have been blessed to receive a small portion of that truth. I have had dreams showing me how time works in the heavens and is actually a byproduct of causality itself and is an irrevocable law that is impossible to go around. It has been shown to me how time is relative, Einstein got some things spot on, and whereas time can be slowed or sped up according to ones relative motion, the linear path itself cannot be manipulated that would allow time travel to be possible. Only the present exists as a reality, past and future events can and are known but in different ways. The past is recorded as an absolute perfect record whereas the future is fluid and only shows what may be according to events as they transpire according to the agency of man. It is possible to see the future in a myriad of wsys because of this and it is ysed by God and his angels to act and shape the future according to their will. I have been shown tgat the Lord God acts all things in faith and is an eternal principle and power and why we need to also learn to be faithful in all things. The reality is that perfection means to be faithful in all things.

In the right setting I could share many of my dreams that would be helpful to understanding and Im sure many others could share also. This isnt a topic that I take lightly, its a topic that came through miraculous events and miraculous dreams that changed my life and eventually brought me back from inactivity and severe anxiety and depression.

 

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

LDS beliefs are unique because we have a lot more scripture dealing with the nature of God. We are unique because we teach that man is very much like God. 

The scriptures teach us eternal truths. When the scriptures teach that God resides on his own planet and that he has his own reckoning of time I am left to believe that it is true. I am placing no limit on God, just reading the scriptures in the correct light. Why is it that no one wants to address why God has his own reckoning of time? Why is it that God often speaks about past, present, and future events in a very linear fashion? More importantly though, why is it that no one wants to address prophecy and revelation about future events that have multiple outcomes depending upon mans agency? So either God lies or the future really isnt set in stone, its one or the other.

Science is something that we should all agree upon yet people want to keep believing that past, present and future can exist at the same time which nullifies the law of causality in physics. Then, in defense, these same people claim that God cannot have limits and anything is possible. Yet I am the one that gets blamed for not understanding science. Pretty strange!

Even in a hypothetical setting where God could somehow be in a reality outside both space and time where past, present and future events all happen simultaneously, it defies everything about what our doctrine teaches yet fits, ironically, with the majority of other religions. And we are the ones supposed to be LDS.

I work hard at trying to understand both God and his doctrines. It is a topic I have spent my entire adult life seeking earnestly. I have received dreams and visions, I have seen the Lord in them and have learned many teachings concerning the universe. This is not done to brag or claim rights to truth, I just have worked diligently in seeking the truth and have been blessed to receive a small portion of that truth. I have had dreams showing me how time works in the heavens and is actually a byproduct of causality itself and is an irrevocable law that is impossible to go around. It has been shown to me how time is relative, Einstein got some things spot on, and whereas time can be slowed or sped up according to ones relative motion, the linear path itself cannot be manipulated that would allow time travel to be possible. Only the present exists as a reality, past and future events can and are known but in different ways. The past is recorded as an absolute perfect record whereas the future is fluid and only shows what may be according to events as they transpire according to the agency of man. It is possible to see the future in a myriad of wsys because of this and it is ysed by God and his angels to act and shape the future according to their will. I have been shown tgat the Lord God acts all things in faith and is an eternal principle and power and why we need to also learn to be faithful in all things. The reality is that perfection means to be faithful in all things.

In the right setting I could share many of my dreams that would be helpful to understanding and Im sure many others could share also. This isnt a topic that I take lightly, its a topic that came through miraculous events and miraculous dreams that changed my life and eventually brought me back from inactivity and severe anxiety and depression.

 

All those questions have been answered on this thread.  You just didn't agree with the answer.

[Rob Osborn]

12 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

All those questions have been answered on this thread.  You just didn't agree with the answer.

I guess it really doesnt matter to me what others believe about my beliefs. I know my beliefs are true, I have come to know them through the spirit and I am true to my own testimony in that regards. My only wish is that somehow I could communicate better to explain to others why it is true. 

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

. My only wish is that somehow I could communicate better to explain to others why it is true. 

Very wise of you to say that. 

 

[anatess2]

5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I guess it really doesnt matter to me what others believe about my beliefs. I know my beliefs are true, I have come to know them through the spirit and I am true to my own testimony in that regards. My only wish is that somehow I could communicate better to explain to others why it is true. 

It shouldn't matter what others believe about your testimony.  But it should matter what the prophets say.  My only wish is that somehow we could communicate better with you.

[Eydis]

20 hours ago, Colirio said:

Rob, again, the scriptures do not agree with you.

 

God's references to time are to help us, as mortals with limited understanding, be able to comprehend. 

 

Alma clearly defines it: 

 

Alma 40:8 Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men. 

 

The limitation in our understanding is not accepting that God can see everything as if it is now.  The limitation in our understanding is how God can see everything as now and at the same time have value added when something is brought to pass.  In other words, we are told that there is a value or something added to God's glory at the moment something actually happens, when something is brought to pass.  So, one way to reconcile that is to try to comprehend that there is a difference between seeing all time and actually passing through the time.  It may be possible to see all time (as if all is as one day with God) but still have a past, present and future of which cannot go back to the past to alter any event or go into the future to alter any future event.   Seeing something really well of the past or the future is a basic concept of all Christianity as we believe that Christ experienced all of our sins but that doesn't necessarily mean that He could warp time or time travel or live outside of the passage of time.

The conflict that should be addressed by anyone who believes that God doesn't experience the passage of time or that God is "timeless" is to explain how God has an increase over time related to things being brought to pass or else, by definition, one would have to say then that God has experienced all that He would ever experience and therefore would have no increase at the moment something happened.

It is important to my testimony that when I do something righteous I am actually giving glory to God.  It would be hard to swallow the idea that if someone performs a righteous act that God is emotionless about it. Emotion requires a change from one moment to the next, something gained that was not there before.

As far as gospel doctrine goes, I would like to hear the reasons why someone who believes that God is timeless stengthens their testimony, not that God can see all time as if it is one day but how does it help one's testimony to believe that God does not experience the passage of time.  What is gained specifically by that concept alone, the lack of passage of time but still being able to see all time?

[Colirio]

1 hour ago, Eydis said:

 

It is important to my testimony that when I do something righteous I am actually giving glory to God.  

 

"Our agency is preserved, however, by the fact that as we approach a given moment we do not know what our response will be. Meanwhile, God has foreseen what we will do and has taken our decision into account (in composite with all others), so that His
purposes are not frustrated.  It is unfortunate that our concerns do not center more upon the correctness of what we do in a given
moment-and less upon whether or not God's having foreseen what we
would do then somehow compromises our agency. It is equally regrettable that our souls should be troubled at all because we cannot figure out `how' God does it, when it has been made so
abundantly clear and on so many occasions that He does do it."
(Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, p.
12.)

 

1 hour ago, Eydis said:

As far as gospel doctrine goes, I would like to hear the reasons why someone who believes that God is timeless stengthens their testimony, not that God can see all time as if it is one day but how does it help one's testimony to believe that God does not experience the passage of time.  What is gained specifically by that concept alone, the lack of passage of time but still being able to see all time?

I don't remember anyone using the word "timeless" to describe God in this thread as that particular word often has other connotations. (I.e. Timeless oldies music soundtrack, etc.) 

 

Elder Maxwell said that God is not bound by time. 

 

As to your point, some of the reasons just off the top of my head that God not being bound by time is important: 

 

1. For the people who lived before the atonement, their sins could still remitted by something that "hadn't happened yet."

2. Christ's past and future victories were and are assured. Not just a "guess based on past experience" as someone who doesn't believe in God's omniscience might surmise. The war against Satan is won by Christ, even though it still wages in our time. 

3. Those who are faithful might receive their calling and election made sure while still in mortality. Your place is prepared. God's purposes cannot be frustrated. 

 

There are probably a myriad of reasons that I haven't even thought about. For myself, it's comforting to know that it's not just a guess. It's not a "hope." God already has prepared our reward and is able to assure us the perfect mortal opportunities to become more like Him. 

 

"One of the most helpful-indeed, very necessary-parallel truths to
be pondered when studying this powerful doctrine of foreordination is given in the revelation of the Lord to Moses in which the Lord says, `And all things are present with me, for I know them all'
(Moses 1:6). God does not live in the dimension of time as do we. Moreover, since `all things are present with' God, his is not simply a predicting based solely upon the past. In ways which are
not clear to us, he actually sees, rather than foresees,the
future-because all things are, at once, present, before him!"
(Neal A. Maxwell, "A More Determined Discipleship," Ensign, February 1979, p. 72.)

 

For me, to read that statement from an apostle of the Lord is a comfort. 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

It shouldn't matter what others believe about your testimony.  But it should matter what the prophets say.  My only wish is that somehow we could communicate better with you.

Its interesting what propgets say indeed so. The problem is that sometimes its revorded as scripture and some of it isnt. Some if those quotes about God being outside space and time is exactly contradictory to scripture. Then what? Who is right? Im placing my bet that the scriptures, in proper context and understanding, trump what various prophets say from time to time.

God cannot possibly be outside space and time (as far as ones reckoning goes) according to scripture. The scriptures thus trump what was previously quoted.

[Vort]

The prophets are holy men, and what they teach is the very word of God to us. Unless they disagree with me, in which case they're only speaking as men, and they're wrong.

The scriptures teach us the truth. Of course, to understand the scriptures, we must interpret them correctly. Sadly, too many misinterpret the scriptures. I feel lucky and blessed that I don't, and my fondest and humblest wish is that everyone else could interpret scripture correctly, as I do.

[Rob Osborn]

 

 

4 In answer to the question—Is not the reckoning of God’s time, angel’s time, prophet’s time, and man’s time, according to the planet on which they reside?
5 I answer, Yes. But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it.

4 And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob.