Can there be free will while God knows all things?

[Colirio]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

 Yeah, thats all ridiculous!

 

Rob, I would love to help you understand. But are you willing to accept what the scriptures, modern prophets, and the Savior has said about the matter? 

 

 

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

In the above case it shows that time has several meanings. But as for a linear time, it exists for all, none is outside of that, not even God.

Once again, you're putting mortal limits on God.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Colirio said:

 

Rob, I would love to help you understand. But are you willing to accept what the scriptures, modern prophets, and the Savior has said about the matter? 

 

 

Its pretty vague actually. We could quote prophet against prophet, scripture against scripture saying opposite things. It takes some understanding to make correct conclusions.

The conclusions show that God works in a linear fashion- he does A before B and C before D. It means God has a past where he has done things, he has a present where he does things presently and he has a future where things havent yet happened but which will come to pass. God is not outside this process of linear time. God does not, nor cannot exist in some reality where the past, present and future all literally exist at the same moment. That would be an oxymoron because there would be no cause and effect which would nullify having a past or future.

[Rob Osborn]

11 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Once again, you're putting mortal limits on God.

How so? Did I not quote a scripture that stated specifically that even God has a reckoning of time?

[anatess2]

34 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

How so? Did I not quote a scripture that stated specifically that even God has a reckoning of time?

We are under time constraints.  Past, Present, Future.  It is as much a part of the Plan of Salvation for the exercise of agency.  God is not inside the Plan of Salvation.  He is God.  God is only within linear time as is necessary for the Plan to "come to pass".  Our understanding is limited within the Plan of Salvation.  We literally cannot comprehend anything outside of it.  So, to say, "God doing X in an eternal round doesn't make sense" is a mortal concept.

Edited March 8, 2017 by anatess2

[Rob Osborn]

4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

We are under time constraints.  Past, Present, Future.  It is as much a part of the Plan of Salvation for the exercise of agency.  God is not inside the Plan of Salvation.  He is God.  God is only within linear time as is necessary for the Plan to "come to pass".  Our understanding is limited within the Plan of Salvation.  We literally cannot comprehend anything outside of it.  So, to say, "God doing X in an eternal round doesn't make sense" is a mortal concept.

Did not God create the world in seven days according to his own reckoning?

[Eydis]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

We are under time constraints.  Past, Present, Future.  It is as much a part of the Plan of Salvation for the exercise of agency.  God is not inside the Plan of Salvation.  He is God.  God is only within linear time as is necessary for the Plan to "come to pass".  Our understanding is limited within the Plan of Salvation.  We literally cannot comprehend anything outside of it.  So, to say, "God doing X in an eternal round doesn't make sense" is a mortal concept.

It is not only necessary for the Plan it is necessary for God's work and glory.

While in the presence of God and including all those who were cast out, all God's spirit children matured before the great counsel in Heaven. In other words, there was a time, in the presence of God, that we were not matured. Then there came a time, in the presence of God, that the Plan of Salvation was presented to us.

[Blackmarch]

On March 6, 2017 at 7:28 PM, Rob Osborn said:

No, its just simple logic.

Logic is great, as long as you have enough of the right info in the right parameters. A calculator can give you a perfect answer, a calculator can also give you a perfect wrong answer.

Would god know that he didnt know?

Edited March 9, 2017 by Blackmarch

[Traveler]

21 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Did not God create the world in seven days according to his own reckoning?

 

I do not think the term "days" (as understood in modern dictionaries) as translated from the ancient Hebrew is a complete and unambiguous way to interoperate divine things.  I believe the term “creation” as referenced in scripture is unique to and specificially part of the Plan of Salvation.  Applying that notion of the Plan of Salvation as a direct mapping to the scientific definations for the origins of our empirical universe is at best speculation.  Or I could say the mingling of scripture with the philosophies of men

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

 

I do not think the term "days" (as understood in modern dictionaries) as translated from the ancient Hebrew is a complete and unambiguous way to interoperate divine things.  I believe the term “creation” as referenced in scripture is unique to and specificially part of the Plan of Salvation.  Applying that notion of the Plan of Salvation as a direct mapping to the scientific definations for the origins of our empirical universe is at best speculation.  Or I could say the mingling of scripture with the philosophies of men

 

The Traveler

The point was to show that even God, the mightiest of all, is not outside of linear time- he too works in the present with the past in back of him having already happened and the future in front of him still waiting to unfold.

[mordorbund]

31 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The point was to show that even God, the mightiest of all, is not outside of linear time- he too works in the present with the past in back of him having already happened and the future in front of him still waiting to unfold.

What if time has 2 axes? one for us and one for God?

[Rob Osborn]

15 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

What if time has 2 axes? one for us and one for God?

Different reckonings.

[mordorbund]

5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Different reckonings.

eh?

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

The point was to show that even God, the mightiest of all, is not outside of linear time- he too works in the present with the past in back of him having already happened and the future in front of him still waiting to unfold.

The point is actually, that God USES time.  For him to do so requires that he is outside time.  Hence, prophecies is possible, revealing future events to Moses and Abraham is possible, having a Bible written thousands of years ago that tells of the apostasy and then the restoration in the future is possible, inspiring Nephi to write a spiritual summary of Lehi's records in preparation for the loss of the book of Lehi in the time of the restoration is possible, having revealed to us what happens in the millenia that will occur far into the future is possible... all of these linear-time-independent activities are possible under God.

Edited March 9, 2017 by anatess2

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The point was to show that even God, the mightiest of all, is not outside of linear time- he too works in the present with the past in back of him having already happened and the future in front of him still waiting to unfold.

 

We already know from Special Relativity that time is not linear but only appears so in certain “closed” instances.  At the quantum level, we know time is not continuous – which means that time is not even an actual dimension of our empirical universe and that there are places in our universe where time does not exist – Or at least as near as we are able to recognize – time does not exist.

This concept of time defined by modern science is very difficult for many in the general population to understand but these new concepts play out very well for understanding some of the concepts of time presented in the Book of Abraham.  One could also argue that being “outside” of time would be indistinguishable as a different reckoning of time from a time based platform of space time. 

In addition, the very concept of a “prophet” is someone that “sees” into the future and knows of things that will come to pass (both what can and what will) – that cannot be seen or understood by other mortals (including me).

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

The point is actually, that God USES time.  For him to do so requires that he is outside time.  Hence, prophecies is possible, revealing future events to Moses and Abraham is possible, having a Bible written thousands of years ago that tells of the apostasy and then the restoration in the future is possible, inspiring Nephi to write a spiritual summary of Lehi's records in preparation for the loss of the book of Lehi in the time of the restoration is possible, having revealed to us what happens in the millenia that will occur far into the future is possible... all of these linear-time-independent activities are possible under God.

 

I use time but I am very confined within this currently unfolding space time (not at all outside of time) even though I do temporal testing in my work – sometimes at 100 times normal time.   To help with your point – Nephi saw the young Mary with the new born Christ child.  If divine things are also confined to similar continuous linear time sequence (past, present and future) that we experience then Nephi beholding things what were not yet true but in the future – would be a lie.  Which was one of the arguments of Nehor to deny the coming of Christ.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

The point is actually, that God USES time.  For him to do so requires that he is outside time.  Hence, prophecies is possible, revealing future events to Moses and Abraham is possible, having a Bible written thousands of years ago that tells of the apostasy and then the restoration in the future is possible, inspiring Nephi to write a spiritual summary of Lehi's records in preparation for the loss of the book of Lehi in the time of the restoration is possible, having revealed to us what happens in the millenia that will occur far into the future is possible... all of these linear-time-independent activities are possible under God.

God is not outside of time. Why do the scriptures speak of Gods reckoning of time?

[Rob Osborn]

19 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

We already know from Special Relativity that time is not linear but only appears so in certain “closed” instances.  At the quantum level, we know time is not continuous – which means that time is not even an actual dimension of our empirical universe and that there are places in our universe where time does not exist – Or at least as near as we are able to recognize – time does not exist.

This concept of time defined by modern science is very difficult for many in the general population to understand but these new concepts play out very well for understanding some of the concepts of time presented in the Book of Abraham.  One could also argue that being “outside” of time would be indistinguishable as a different reckoning of time from a time based platform of space time. 

In addition, the very concept of a “prophet” is someone that “sees” into the future and knows of things that will come to pass (both what can and what will) – that cannot be seen or understood by other mortals (including me).

 

The Traveler

Theoretical physics aside, it has never been shown that time is not linear throughout space. 

[Rob Osborn]

As for revelation, there too many instances where God gives a prophecy that is conditional with an "if this then that but if not that then this". Speaking of our day, the Lord prophecied that if we, the gentiles, do not show compassion to the American Indian remnants after we scattered them then he shall cause them to tread us down but if we do repent and show compassion we will be blessed above all nations. Why do you suppose God would give a revelation/prophecy that hinges either on one hand or the other wholly dependent on what we would choose at that future day? Could it possibly be that this is because God can see the possibility of futures but not actually see the exact path as if it were set in stone? The scriptures seem to testify to this reality.

[Traveler]

23 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Theoretical physics aside, it has never been shown that time is not linear throughout space. 

Special Relativity has been demonstrated and confirmed.  You may want to Goodgle Special Relativity.  Quoting Wikipedia:

Quote

In physics, special relativity (SR, also known as the special theory of relativity or STR) is the generally accepted and experimentally well-confirmed physical theory regarding the relationship between space and time.

I would point out if you do much study into SR you will discover that time will appear the same in all occurrences of space time depending on one’s frame of reference.  Even if you could look upon non-linear time you will still perceive it in your reference space-time frame as linear.  

It is reasonable that G-d deals with us in ways we can understand.  There would be no reason for G-d to give us an example that is inconsistent with our standing and understanding. 

 

The Traveler

[JohnsonJones]

I am a historian, and understandably NOT a scientist in this understanding...soooo...my thoughts.

What IS time?

That's the first thing that we have to define if we are going to use it.  It seems people are using a definition in science, but is that what time is.  Perhaps, as some have suggested, there are several definitions of time.

In basics...time is a measurement.  Just like 2d is measured in height and length, and in 3d we add width, time is yet another measurement.  This measurement has changed.

Long ago, it was measured in one way, later it became seconds, minutes, hours, days as per the measurements of the sun.  Now we measure time in caesium standard time, or the frequency of a caesium 133 atoms.

In that measurement we can see as the universe changes, so time is merely a measurement of the changes of our universe.  Saying something exist outside of time in that context is simply stating something exists outside our universe, or at least outside our measurement of the changes of our universe. 

In that light, time would truly be one eternal round if you believe in the expansion and contraction theories of the universe.  It has a big bang, expands, then contracts and then everything happens all over again.  Over...and over...and over...for ever.

But does that define TIME for us?  I would say for an eternal being, it does not.  Time can also be a measurement of progress, or our changes within ourselves.  In that light, we could have our own measurement by what we experience.  If that were one eternal round, that would mean that even if we obtain the eternal salvation, we will once again lose it, become intelligences, and have to earn it all over again.  It kind of negates the entire idea of eternity and eternal salvation or punishment.  Sure, you may go to outer darkness, but it's only until the round begins again.

When it says time is one eternal round, I think it is referring to our mortal perceptions and the way we measure the universe around us.  It is in reference to OUR time measurements, but not to eternity.  I think the Lord is outside that and beyond that.  I say that there is still something that is comparable to it, or a different type of time measured in experiences and advancements, but not necessarily how WE view time in our universe with seconds, hours, and such in the hereafter.

I'd say that time is suspect, that there are different definitions of time, and when speaking of time, one would need to identify which type of time they are identifying with.  For our universe, it would normally be the time we measure the universal changes by, which we know many things, even in this universe, are not affected by and live outside or beyond time.

In regards to our experiences and measurement of time in that manner, it would differ from soul to soul and spirit to spirit.  It could be that the Lord lives outside our universal laws of time that we use to measure time, and hence can see the results of what may happen, but also has his own increase and advancement due to his own time, or growth and change.

Something even more revolutionary, what if WE, as his children, before we came, ALSO knew all that would occur in our time?  Why would many of us choose to come here if we were not going to receive exaltation? 

I think this is actually a very high possibility...that  we knew what we were going to do with our lives, or at least for the most part.

My answer for why we came then...we may not have known for ourselves whether what we could achieve and needed to know for ourselves.  Even if we did know the end result (and we may not have), we came because what we gain is more than what we would have if we did not.  Even those who go to perdition are said to be greater than ANY of those others who are there (think about that a little, Cain and any son of perdition is greater than ANY of the third host of heaven and their leader in the hereafter in the great judgement).  We came here to gain experience for ourselves, but also because even those who end up the worse of us, end up in the sum of parts, greater than they were before.

We came because it is to our benefit to come to this life.

Edited March 9, 2017 by JohnsonJones
adding a little to clarify

[Rob Osborn]

8 hours ago, Traveler said:

Special Relativity has been demonstrated and confirmed.  You may want to Goodgle Special Relativity.  Quoting Wikipedia:

I would point out if you do much study into SR you will discover that time will appear the same in all occurrences of space time depending on one’s frame of reference.  Even if you could look upon non-linear time you will still perceive it in your reference space-time frame as linear.  

It is reasonable that G-d deals with us in ways we can understand.  There would be no reason for G-d to give us an example that is inconsistent with our standing and understanding. 

 

The Traveler

Yeah, its what we call the reckoning of ones time in the scriptures. Time may pass at diffetent rates but whether one is fast and another slow, it all rolls forward together.

[Eydis]

17 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

I use time but I am very confined within this currently unfolding space time (not at all outside of time) even though I do temporal testing in my work – sometimes at 100 times normal time.   To help with your point – Nephi saw the young Mary with the new born Christ child.  If divine things are also confined to similar continuous linear time sequence (past, present and future) that we experience then Nephi beholding things what were not yet true but in the future – would be a lie.  Which was one of the arguments of Nehor to deny the coming of Christ.

 

The Traveler

It would only be a lie if Nephi at that moment said that it has already come to pass.  So long as he takes it as such, that it is a future event then there is no disruption of linear time.  The passing of linear time does not preclude the idea that one can "see" into the past or the future. It only requires that one realize that there is value in something coming to pass, that it has happened, making it different from something that will happen.  I know, some day, I will be resurrected but I do not call myself or glory in the idea of being resurrected until it is brought to pass.  I can hope for it, even have a perfect hope but that is different than knowing that something has happened.  I believe there is value to God even in knowing that something has happened as opposed to will happen.   The thing that is lost if someone does not believe in the passage of time for God is to say that God gains no value in knowing that something has happened as opposed to will happen.  And if that is the case then there is no increase for God. "Increase" requires the passage of time or at least the distinction of past present and future.  Explain how God can have works and the resultant increase in glory without the passage of time or the recognition of the passage of time.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Eydis

[Colirio]

Here is decent article that discusses some of the issues already brought up in this topic:

 

http://www.ldsliving.com/How-Does-God-s-Time-Really-Work/s/80028

 

Just to be clear, God being outside of time like mortals isn't just an LDS belief. Elder Neal A. Maxwell stated the following:

 

 

"But modern revelations make it abundantly clear that God is not
`in time' in the manner that we mortals are. This is precisely
what some able and perceptive commentators have surmised as they
have wrestled sincerely with this dilemma, though without `plain
and precious' modern scriptures. For example, the philosopher
Boethius described in the fifth century how `God is outside of
time and does not foresee the future; rather, he sees it in an
"eternal now" that is equally present to all parts of time. God
did not know yesterday what I will do tomorrow; he sees timelessly
in eternity "what I am doing" in the future just as he sees what I
am doing now. We must be careful not to conclude that since past,
present, and future are equally present to God, they are equally
present to each other. Both space and time are real, not just
illusions, but God created them both and is not bound by either.'
Besides, we mortals make our decisions within our framework of
understanding, not God's. The modern revelations give needed
clarification and confirmation concerning God's omniscience
through these significant insights when laid alongside those from
the Bible: `His understanding is infinite.' (Psalm 147:5.) `God .
. . knoweth all things.' (1 John 3:20.) `And hath made of one
blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the
earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the
bounds of their habitation.' (Acts 17:26.) `O how great the
holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not
anything save he knows it.' (2 Nephi 9:20.) 5`The Lord knoweth all
things from the beginning; wherefore, he prepareth a way to
accomplish all his works among the children of men; for behold, he
hath all power unto the fulfilling of all his words. And thus it
is. Amen.' (1 Nephi 9:6.) `In the presence of God . . . all things
for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are
continually before the Lord.' (D&C 130:7. See also 88:41.) `All
things are present before mine eyes.' (D&C 38:2.) `All things are
present with me, for I know them all.' (Moses 1:6.) These verses
confirm what has been referred to as `the eternal now'-within
which God exists, so that He sees rather than foresees." (Neal A.
Maxwell, Plain and Precious Things, p. 57.)

[Traveler]

9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Yeah, its what we call the reckoning of ones time in the scriptures. Time may pass at diffetent rates but whether one is fast and another slow, it all rolls forward together.

 

I see "the problem".  You think that just because you see time as an ordered sequence - you cannot understand or comprehend that from another platform (different space-time dimension) that is not at all what is happening.   @Colirio quotes Elder Neal A. Maxwell implying that G-d see the future as now.  The scientific concept is a little deeper in that one would not just see but experience the future as now.  It is not that difficult to think it possible to experience the past as we do the now but it is very difficult for some to understand the possibility that even the future can be experienced as now. 

I would add on other interesting scripture in Isaiah 46:10. Not only does G-d know all things from the beginning to the end but he foretells (prophesies or lets man know) or as it is said in Amos 3:7 – that G-d does not do anything unless he informs his prophets first.

 

The Traveler