Can there be free will while God knows all things?

[Rob Osborn]

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Time_and_Eternity

[Rob Osborn]

In 3rd Nephi 16 Jesus is speaking the words and commandments of the Father in relation to the future gentiles (us) and their relation to the remnant of the Nephites in that latter day. The chapter is unique in that it shows Gods methods in bringing about prophecy. The prophecy is that Zion will be established, either by the Gentile nation or by the Nephite remnant after they have been scattered. Here is the verses to pay special attention to and I have underlined the specific wording.-

13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.
14 And I will not suffer my people, who are of the house of Israel, to go through among them, and tread them down, saith the Father.
15 But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people, O house of Israel.

16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, thus hath the Father commanded me—that I should give unto this people this land for their inheritance.
17 And then the words of the prophet Isaiah shall be fulfilled, which say:
18 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing, for they shall see eye to eye when the Lord shall bring again Zion.
19 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem; for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
20 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of God.

This prophecy contains two diferent scenerios, either the gentiles repent and bring forth Zion (in which we did and brought forth the LDS religion) or the remnant was to go and trid them down and bring forth Zion. In the end the prophecy happens but at that point when it was given God saw two scenerios and either one was in play according to mans agency. This tells us so ething about God and how he truly sees the future. It tells us that God sees the different possibilities and an end solution that still brings about his will anyway. This is paramount to understanding how "agency" by man, acting in the present continually shapes the future and that its fluid in that how we arrive at Gods will has many possible paths.

[Traveler]

21 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

In 3rd Nephi 16 Jesus is speaking the words and commandments of the Father in relation to the future gentiles (us) and their relation to the remnant of the Nephites in that latter day. The chapter is unique in that it shows Gods methods in bringing about prophecy. The prophecy is that Zion will be established, either by the Gentile nation or by the Nephite remnant after they have been scattered. Here is the verses to pay special attention to and I have underlined the specific wording.-

13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.
14 And I will not suffer my people, who are of the house of Israel, to go through among them, and tread them down, saith the Father.
15 But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people, O house of Israel.

16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, thus hath the Father commanded me—that I should give unto this people this land for their inheritance.
17 And then the words of the prophet Isaiah shall be fulfilled, which say:
18 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing, for they shall see eye to eye when the Lord shall bring again Zion.
19 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem; for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
20 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of God.

This prophecy contains two diferent scenerios, either the gentiles repent and bring forth Zion (in which we did and brought forth the LDS religion) or the remnant was to go and trid them down and bring forth Zion. In the end the prophecy happens but at that point when it was given God saw two scenerios and either one was in play according to mans agency. This tells us so ething about God and how he truly sees the future. It tells us that God sees the different possibilities and an end solution that still brings about his will anyway. This is paramount to understanding how "agency" by man, acting in the present continually shapes the future and that its fluid in that how we arrive at Gods will has many possible paths.

Your work is excellent – Thanks for your effort.  A question, if you will consider?  Is it possible that both possibilities will actually take place?   One is a prophesy concerning those Gentiles that repent and the other for those Gentiles that do not repent and serve G-d; resulting in both possibilities being fulfilled?  That we are being told is that there are no 3rd or more possibilities for the Gentiles in the last days and that eventually all must choose between the one or the other and nothing else.

Is it possible for you to consider that G-d knows in advance, 100%, that some (and he knows which) will repent and build Zion and some (and he knows which) will be trodden down?  Did G-d know that Joseph Smith would choose badly and lose several very important pages of the Book of Mormon?  (See Isaiah 46:10)

I am concerned that there are two – bigger questions and you may not be fully aware of.  Before we consider the second we ought to resolve the first.  In the classical debate between freewill and determinism – the question is - whether or not, we are bound to only the predetermined outcome(s) or can we exercise free will and determine something completely different of our own unique invention?   In essence, the question is; Do we have freewill meaning that we can make another choice or choices and bring about something that is not already determined by persons or things other than ourselves as mortal humans?    

Just for fun – does anyone else see the irony in the debate of freewill verses determinism?     Hmmmmmmmmmmmm!

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Your work is excellent – Thanks for your effort.  A question, if you will consider?  Is it possible that both possibilities will actually take place?   One is a prophesy concerning those Gentiles that repent and the other for those Gentiles that do not repent and serve G-d; resulting in both possibilities being fulfilled?  That we are being told is that there are no 3rd or more possibilities for the Gentiles in the last days and that eventually all must choose between the one or the other and nothing else.

Is it possible for you to consider that G-d knows in advance, 100%, that some (and he knows which) will repent and build Zion and some (and he knows which) will be trodden down?  Did G-d know that Joseph Smith would choose badly and lose several very important pages of the Book of Mormon?  (See Isaiah 46:10)

I am concerned that there are two – bigger questions and you may not be fully aware of.  Before we consider the second we ought to resolve the first.  In the classical debate between freewill and determinism – the question is - whether or not, we are bound to only the predetermined outcome(s) or can we exercise free will and determine something completely different of our own unique invention?   In essence, the question is; Do we have freewill meaning that we can make another choice or choices and bring about something that is not already determined by persons or things other than ourselves as mortal humans?    

Just for fun – does anyone else see the irony in the debate of freewill verses determinism?     Hmmmmmmmmmmmm!

 

The Traveler

Its possible that both scenerios could be true but I am inclined to believe that this prophecy by the Father is clearly two separate paths.

The interesting aspect of free will and intelligence is that we are at times on the very precipice of choice where it can fall in any direction and where it finally falls cannot be known beforehand. Suppose we have a game, it goes like this- I right down in sequence random numbers between 1-10 a million times. Is it possible for God to have already correctly written down my choices exactly in the correct order before I start? And, what happens if I get to see what his list shows before I start mine and intentionally change numbers around?

[Traveler]

42 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its possible that both scenerios could be true but I am inclined to believe that this prophecy by the Father is clearly two separate paths.

The interesting aspect of free will and intelligence is that we are at times on the very precipice of choice where it can fall in any direction and where it finally falls cannot be known beforehand. Suppose we have a game, it goes like this- I right down in sequence random numbers between 1-10 a million times. Is it possible for God to have already correctly written down my choices exactly in the correct order before I start? And, what happens if I get to see what his list shows before I start mine and intentionally change numbers around?

 

The question in my mind is not the choice at the precipice but in the choices, that got someone there in the first place.  Is it really a choice of agency and free will to be forced into an unforeseen decision at a precipice?  Or is it choices of freewill and agency that take someone, not knowing the consequences to the precipice where they are forced into a choice that they are not prepared for; in order to make the choice more random?

The question I have is – If you are forced into a choice where you cannot or do not determine the parameters (conditions) – how can you pretend it to be a true choice of your agency and free will?  Let me give an example.  Someone takes you and your family captive, then they point guns at your spouse and family and tell you to choose – deny your religion or witness the death of your family.  The claim you have freewill and agency to choose.  I do not accept that as a choice of agency and free will.  I do not believe anyone in such circumstance is accountable for the results – the responsibility lies 100% with those (or individual) that created the circumstance.  – it is an expression of their agency and free will – not yours and as I understand true expression of agency; it is Satan that intends to control the circumstance of choice.

I would also like to respond to your writing down numbers in sequence and what G-d knows.  Let’s make this as simple as possible – if you were to right down one single digit number – will you concede that G-d would know in advance that number?  That you could not trick or fool him?  If you could not produce one number why do you think you could fool him with just a single additional number or with n+1 numbers?

I will go one step farther – I am a proponent of “Chaos Theory” – I use this theory in my consulting business.  But I do not believe there is any such thing as “random”.  I find this interesting that you believe in sequenced time but that there are random “things” that have no cause.  It appears to me that you believe there are things that currently can exist in which nothing preceded it.   It appears to me that your understanding of time sequence and freewill choice are in contradiction.  I am not sure you have thought this through.  I may be wrong but how can you think time is sequenced and there are random things that cannot be known – exist without something in sequence that must precede it.

 

The Traveler

[Eydis]

20 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

The question in my mind is not the choice at the precipice but in the choices, that got someone there in the first place.  Is it really a choice of agency and free will to be forced into an unforeseen decision at a precipice?  Or is it choices of freewill and agency that take someone, not knowing the consequences to the precipice where they are forced into a choice that they are not prepared for; in order to make the choice more random?

The question I have is – If you are forced into a choice where you cannot or do not determine the parameters (conditions) – how can you pretend it to be a true choice of your agency and free will?  Let me give an example.  Someone takes you and your family captive, then they point guns at your spouse and family and tell you to choose – deny your religion or witness the death of your family.  The claim you have freewill and agency to choose.  I do not accept that as a choice of agency and free will.  I do not believe anyone in such circumstance is accountable for the results – the responsibility lies 100% with those (or individual) that created the circumstance.  – it is an expression of their agency and free will – not yours and as I understand true expression of agency; it is Satan that intends to control the circumstance of choice.

I would also like to respond to your writing down numbers in sequence and what G-d knows.  Let’s make this as simple as possible – if you were to right down one single digit number – will you concede that G-d would know in advance that number?  That you could not trick or fool him?  If you could not produce one number why do you think you could fool him with just a single additional number or with n+1 numbers?

I will go one step farther – I am a proponent of “Chaos Theory” – I use this theory in my consulting business.  But I do not believe there is any such thing as “random”.  I find this interesting that you believe in sequenced time but that there are random “things” that have no cause.  It appears to me that you believe there are things that currently can exist in which nothing preceded it.   It appears to me that your understanding of time sequence and freewill choice are in contradiction.  I am not sure you have thought this through.  I may be wrong but how can you think time is sequenced and there are random things that cannot be known – exist without something in sequence that must precede it.

 

The Traveler

But what if the purpose of the test is to see what a person does in the setting of not being aware of the conditions?

Like Adam not knowing why he performed sacrifices but doing it anyways.  The way to set up a test of faith is to create a setting where the conditions are unknown to the person.  If the test is who would a person turn to when the conditions are unknown, do the turn to their spiritual understanding, rely on Christ and the Holy Spirit for guidance or do they turn to their own understanding which is flawed and limited.  Isn't that the test we face?

In my understanding, the first estate test was the one where we had all knowledge placed before us, all the conditions were understood.  We all here already passed that test.  We don't need to take that test again.  Now we face a different test, a test of the flesh, a test based in faith which is, by definition, a test in the setting of unknowns.

[Rob Osborn]

22 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

The question in my mind is not the choice at the precipice but in the choices, that got someone there in the first place.  Is it really a choice of agency and free will to be forced into an unforeseen decision at a precipice?  Or is it choices of freewill and agency that take someone, not knowing the consequences to the precipice where they are forced into a choice that they are not prepared for; in order to make the choice more random?

The question I have is – If you are forced into a choice where you cannot or do not determine the parameters (conditions) – how can you pretend it to be a true choice of your agency and free will?  Let me give an example.  Someone takes you and your family captive, then they point guns at your spouse and family and tell you to choose – deny your religion or witness the death of your family.  The claim you have freewill and agency to choose.  I do not accept that as a choice of agency and free will.  I do not believe anyone in such circumstance is accountable for the results – the responsibility lies 100% with those (or individual) that created the circumstance.  – it is an expression of their agency and free will – not yours and as I understand true expression of agency; it is Satan that intends to control the circumstance of choice.

I would also like to respond to your writing down numbers in sequence and what G-d knows.  Let’s make this as simple as possible – if you were to right down one single digit number – will you concede that G-d would know in advance that number?  That you could not trick or fool him?  If you could not produce one number why do you think you could fool him with just a single additional number or with n+1 numbers?

I will go one step farther – I am a proponent of “Chaos Theory” – I use this theory in my consulting business.  But I do not believe there is any such thing as “random”.  I find this interesting that you believe in sequenced time but that there are random “things” that have no cause.  It appears to me that you believe there are things that currently can exist in which nothing preceded it.   It appears to me that your understanding of time sequence and freewill choice are in contradiction.  I am not sure you have thought this through.  I may be wrong but how can you think time is sequenced and there are random things that cannot be known – exist without something in sequence that must precede it.

 

The Traveler

In computers and AI there is nothing such as "random". But, with human agency and free will there is such a thing as a random decision. If I am trying to make a choice between two similar items at the store, I can use both rational decision making or random decision making. Rational decision making is using ones experience and knowledge to choose an item. This can indeed be very predictive in nature. Random decision making happens when one has exhausted all rational though and its now narrowed down to a small sample of two or three items. If I feel I would be equally pleased with all selections and I must only choose one I could use a myriad of possible random criteria to choose which one to buy. Maybe I suddenly pick a number in my head between 1-10 and which ever number comes the closest to the serial number 3rd placement I choose it. But, maybe I suddenly decide something else thats random and has no rational explanation. The point is that intelligence is capable of picking something in a truly random way that cannot be predicted beforehand.

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, Eydis said:

But what if the purpose of the test is to see what a person does in the setting of not being aware of the conditions?

Like Adam not knowing why he performed sacrifices but doing it anyways.  The way to set up a test of faith is to create a setting where the conditions are unknown to the person.  If the test is who would a person turn to when the conditions are unknown, do the turn to their spiritual understanding, rely on Christ and the Holy Spirit for guidance or do they turn to their own understanding which is flawed and limited.  Isn't that the test we face?

In my understanding, the first estate test was the one where we had all knowledge placed before us, all the conditions were understood.  We all here already passed that test.  We don't need to take that test again.  Now we face a different test, a test of the flesh, a test based in faith which is, by definition, a test in the setting of unknowns.

 

I believe we are much in agreement.   In order that we have agency and freewill we must control the parameters and make a knowledgeable choice which includes knowing and understanding the outcome.   Thus, I have concluded that in order for us to face unknown conditions and still retain freewill and agency we would have to choose to face unknown conditions – realizing in advance the outcome.  However, to complete this task it would be necessary that we forget having chosen to face the test.  I believe that is exactly why we have a veil of forgetfulness. 

Why would this be so – it is necessary that we fail and be overcome with evil.  This is why the plan of salvation included the fall of man and why we are fallen without memory.  With this condition we can be forced into bad choices and experience the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  But since we are fallen and experience a loss of memory and thus some agency we can repent and not be held accountable.  But justice demands someone pay the price and according to the justice of agency the provider of agency can be held responsible.  Since Jesus granted our agency – he and only he can pay for our bad choices.

But for agency and freewill to be – we would have to know and agree.  So by death we gain knowledge of evil and by the atonement we gain knowledge of good fulfilling the step in the plan to partake of the “forbidden” fruit.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

In computers and AI there is nothing such as "random". But, with human agency and free will there is such a thing as a random decision. If I am trying to make a choice between two similar items at the store, I can use both rational decision making or random decision making. Rational decision making is using ones experience and knowledge to choose an item. This can indeed be very predictive in nature. Random decision making happens when one has exhausted all rational though and its now narrowed down to a small sample of two or three items. If I feel I would be equally pleased with all selections and I must only choose one I could use a myriad of possible random criteria to choose which one to buy. Maybe I suddenly pick a number in my head between 1-10 and which ever number comes the closest to the serial number 3rd placement I choose it. But, maybe I suddenly decide something else thats random and has no rational explanation. The point is that intelligence is capable of picking something in a truly random way that cannot be predicted beforehand.

 

I am quite sure that your stand is contrary to modern revelation.  As I understand, in this life, there are no; what you call random choices.  That we choose either to follow Christ or we end up following Satan.  It is my opinion that if you research this doctrine of random choices that you are championing you will find that it is more closely associated to the philosophies of men than supported by scripture or revelation.  Never-the-less, as I understand marketing strategies – packaging and product presentation will affect choices and prevent a random choice.  If I am wrong – please correct me – I would be most interested in the method and reason of your conclusion.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

57 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

I am quite sure that your stand is contrary to modern revelation.  As I understand, in this life, there are no; what you call random choices.  That we choose either to follow Christ or we end up following Satan.  It is my opinion that if you research this doctrine of random choices that you are championing you will find that it is more closely associated to the philosophies of men than supported by scripture or revelation.  Never-the-less, as I understand marketing strategies – packaging and product presentation will affect choices and prevent a random choice.  If I am wrong – please correct me – I would be most interested in the method and reason of your conclusion.

 

The Traveler

I am not suggesting that major decisions are random, I am stating that there are a myriad of factors that go into decisions and in a some cases the actual decision process is very random. For example, as a kid I would save up money to buy the small diecast cars such as Matchbox and Hotwheels brands. Rational decision making would narrow those sele tions from a hundred down to three or four. Then again, another round of rational decisions would again try to narrow it down more. But, inevitably I would arrive at having to choose one car from two I liked equally. No amount of rational decision could suffice. So, my mind would switch into random mode and choose one with no rational explanation over the other- both packaged the same, both very attractive in color, etc. I would wonder all the time how it was possible to choose one instead of the other when rational logic would place me choosing both equally. I could even rule out subconsciuosly choosing because it even felt random. I would even invent random ways to choose so that no rational explanation could cause me to be bias one over the other (yes, my mind is very strange). And, I would always pick one over the other. Even when I bought both my mind could never rationally decide a bias one over the other. So, even from a very young age my mind contemplated the process of intelligence and agency and how we can make actual decisions based off of random circumstances. Its what makes us free, its what defines true agency.  Without that precipice of choice we wouldnt have free will. 

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

I am not suggesting that major decisions are random, I am stating that there are a myriad of factors that go into decisions and in a some cases the actual decision process is very random. For example, as a kid I would save up money to buy the small diecast cars such as Matchbox and Hotwheels brands. Rational decision making would narrow those sele tions from a hundred down to three or four. Then again, another round of rational decisions would again try to narrow it down more. But, inevitably I would arrive at having to choose one car from two I liked equally. No amount of rational decision could suffice. So, my mind would switch into random mode and choose one with no rational explanation over the other- both packaged the same, both very attractive in color, etc. I would wonder all the time how it was possible to choose one instead of the other when rational logic would place me choosing both equally. I could even rule out subconsciuosly choosing because it even felt random. I would even invent random ways to choose so that no rational explanation could cause me to be bias one over the other (yes, my mind is very strange). And, I would always pick one over the other. Even when I bought both my mind could never rationally decide a bias one over the other. So, even from a very young age my mind contemplated the process of intelligence and agency and how we can make actual decisions based off of random circumstances. Its what makes us free, its what defines true agency.  Without that precipice of choice we wouldnt have free will. 

Default choices are not random.    They are habits which will follow patters and patterns can be predicted by fractals and fractals are the basis of Chaos Theory.  You may be thinking such things are random but Chaos theory predicts patterns based on fractals.  Random means that there are no repeating patterns or even predictable percentages. 

Concerning choices - as my mission president said many years ago, Failure to choose is a chose to fail!  Or as my father would add - just because you are not in control is no reason to assume that no one or nothing else is.

In science, we define intelligence as the ability to learn.  Nothing learned or based in intelligence is random (by definition) - research by Skinner, Pavlov and Gobbles has proven that anything cognitive (something that requires thinking or recognition) is not random – ever.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

Default choices are not random.    They are habits which will follow patters and patterns can be predicted by fractals and fractals are the basis of Chaos Theory.  You may be thinking such things are random but Chaos theory predicts patterns based on fractals.  Random means that there are no repeating patterns or even predictable percentages. 

Concerning choices - as my mission president said many years ago, Failure to choose is a chose to fail!  Or as my father would add - just because you are not in control is no reason to assume that no one or nothing else is.

In science, we define intelligence as the ability to learn.  Nothing learned or based in intelligence is random (by definition) - research by Skinner, Pavlov and Gobbles has proven that anything cognitive (something that requires thinking or recognition) is not random – ever.

 

The Traveler

Well, I disagree. I do think it is possible for the mind to generate random decision making processes. I just gave an example of making a choice on something that follows no rational pattern. Its the same thing in randomly picking the sequence of a million different numbers in a row. At that precipice moment our mind somehow has the ability to make or create a choice that follows no rational pattern if we so choose so. 

[anatess2]

12 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, I disagree. I do think it is possible for the mind to generate random decision making processes. I just gave an example of making a choice on something that follows no rational pattern. Its the same thing in randomly picking the sequence of a million different numbers in a row. At that precipice moment our mind somehow has the ability to make or create a choice that follows no rational pattern if we so choose so. 

Something that appears random to the machine/user is not random to the programmer.  This is the issue that has been plaguing this thread since the beginning.  You've been trying to reduce God to man's level of understanding.

Edited March 17, 2017 by anatess2

[Traveler]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Something that appears random to the machine/user is not random to the programmer.  This is the issue that has been plaguing this thread since the beginning.  You've been trying to reduce God to man's level of understanding.

Whenever a cause is not understood - the result will seem to be random.  This is a most difficult lesson to teach a child or someone that is convinced they are a victim of circumstance. 

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

25 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Something that appears random to the machine/user is not random to the programmer.  This is the issue that has been plaguing this thread since the beginning.  You've been trying to reduce God to man's level of understanding.

So, are you saying we are just a program, that we have no free will? That it just appears to us we have free will when actually we are just a program that runs perfectly to a predestined set of circumstance? Where would culpability stand then for sin? The programmer? Would that make God culpable for our sins of which we were just programmed to committ on no fault of our own?

It truly is the crux of the discussion.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Rob Osborn

[Rob Osborn]

20 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Whenever a cause is not understood - the result will seem to be random.  This is a most difficult lesson to teach a child or someone that is convinced they are a victim of circumstance. 

 

The Traveler

You are probably aware of the famous Libet experiment that was made to show that decisions are made subconsciously a brief time before the conscious part of the brain made it or was aware. The fibdings shook the pgilisophical and pschology world because it deemed that things must be solely deterministic and free will doesnt truly exist. Interesting to this experiment however, tgat is not discussed, is that we can program our subconscious to not only fire seeming random impulses to our conscious mind but then have power of veto to overide that impulse. The result is that we truly are capable of being unpredictable and have a unique ability of free will that is not constrained to predetermined circumstance.

[Traveler]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

You are probably aware of the famous Libet experiment that was made to show that decisions are made subconsciously a brief time before the conscious part of the brain made it or was aware. The fibdings shook the pgilisophical and pschology world because it deemed that things must be solely deterministic and free will doesnt truly exist. Interesting to this experiment however, tgat is not discussed, is that we can program our subconscious to not only fire seeming random impulses to our conscious mind but then have power of veto to overide that impulse. The result is that we truly are capable of being unpredictable and have a unique ability of free will that is not constrained to predetermined circumstance.

I am having difficulity with understanding how randomness is proof of intelligence, agency and free will.  I am convinced that someting that is actually random would be proof that intelligence is not at play.  Is not intelligence necessary for agency and freewill? 

I am not use to your point of view - every other religious person I know - points to the order of the universe and things to demonstrate that intelligence is involved.  You seem to be convinced otherwise - that unorganized chaos is the only true proof of intelligence.  Can you explain this? 

Thanks  

The Traveler

[Eydis]

58 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Whenever a cause is not understood - the result will seem to be random.  This is a most difficult lesson to teach a child or someone that is convinced they are a victim of circumstance. 

 

The Traveler

So, when a terrorist bomb goes off in a crowd and the nuts and bolts fly in seemingly "random" directions killing one child in the crowd and not the other and taking out the legs of another but not the person standing next to them, that was determined rather than "random"?

[Rob Osborn]

9 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am having difficulity with understanding how randomness is proof of intelligence, agency and free will.  I am convinced that someting that is actually random would be proof that intelligence is not at play.  Is not intelligence necessary for agency and freewill? 

I am not use to your point of view - every other religious person I know - points to the order of the universe and things to demonstrate that intelligence is involved.  You seem to be convinced otherwise - that unorganized chaos is the only true proof of intelligence.  Can you explain this? 

Thanks  

The Traveler

Im not saying that at all. We are misunderstanding each other. I am saying that one of the signs or abilities of intelligence and agency is the unique ability to make a decision on something that is unpredictable/random. For instance- artificial intelligence is incapable of making a true choice between two or more equally viable options, it can only follow a predetermined path- its a perfect math equation that uses a completely perfectly predictable set of calculatons.

Human intelligence however has the ability to make some decisions that as of yet follows to rational process or set of predictable parameters. We play games in our minds to create randomness in our minds when we cant decide. Tests on lab rats show that when all else fails they use a part of the brain that creates randomness to make decisions that arent based on memory, feelings, knowledge, etc. Its one of the unique attributes of true intelligence.

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, are you saying we are just a program, that we have no free will? That it just appears to us we have free will when actually we are just a program that runs perfectly to a predestined set of circumstance? Where would culpability stand then for sin? The programmer? Would that make God culpable for our sins of which we were just programmed to committ on no fault of our own?

It truly is the crux of the discussion.

We're on page 11 and you're still not understanding a word I'm saying.

I am LDS.  You are too.  We have the exact same understanding of the gift of Free Agency and it's importance in the Plan of Salvation.

And once again... God's culpability - you calling Him evil - ONLY applies in creatio ex nihilo teaching - where NOTHING is a better state than Outer Darkness.  The LDS do not subscribe to creatio ex nihilo doctrine.

You spout Intelligent Design yet when the time comes that we discuss intelligent design in the formation of our spirit bodies you deprive God of intelligence.

[anatess2]

36 minutes ago, Eydis said:

So, when a terrorist bomb goes off in a crowd and the nuts and bolts fly in seemingly "random" directions killing one child in the crowd and not the other and taking out the legs of another but not the person standing next to them, that was determined rather than "random"?

"Seemingly" is the operative word.  Of course there is nothing random about where nuts and bolts end up in an explosion.  Mathematics can even predict where each one will go and of course, we don't believe Mathematics is God.

Now, who ends up getting killed being "deteremined" is a mortal understanding.  God's purposes are beyond mortal understanding.

This is exactly the same question as somebody bearing his testimony on Fast Sunday saying the Spirit inspired him to dawdle over his breakfast so he didn't die in the Twin Towers.  Does that mean that God saved him but not all the other faithfrul Christians who got buried in the rubble?  So, what is your answer to the 9/11 scenario?  Those faithful Christians died because they didn't listen to the Spirit?  They died because the Spirit didn't inspire them to avoid the towers?  God didn't think they need saving?  The guy saying the Spirit inspired him lied?

My answer is - God's purposes are beyond our mortal understanding.  And this is what I've been trying to explain to Rob.  God exists outside of linear time as time is a mortal understanding.  Whether God himself is subject to linear time or not is beyond our understanding and is, therefore, unanswerable.

Edited March 17, 2017 by anatess2

[Traveler]

45 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im not saying that at all. We are misunderstanding each other. I am saying that one of the signs or abilities of intelligence and agency is the unique ability to make a decision on something that is unpredictable/random. For instance- artificial intelligence is incapable of making a true choice between two or more equally viable options, it can only follow a predetermined path- its a perfect math equation that uses a completely perfectly predictable set of calculatons.

Human intelligence however has the ability to make some decisions that as of yet follows to rational process or set of predictable parameters. We play games in our minds to create randomness in our minds when we cant decide. Tests on lab rats show that when all else fails they use a part of the brain that creates randomness to make decisions that arent based on memory, feelings, knowledge, etc. Its one of the unique attributes of true intelligence.

Rob, I hope you do not think I am not enjoying this discussion.  I very much enjoy having a discussion and bringing up points I am not sure are considered.  I am doing two things.  One, I am trying to get at the heart of your thinking and two, I am trying to learn something new that I have missed or not considered.  It is not that I intend misunderstanding – but I put forth extreme thoughts and examples to see how you apply them to your paradigm.

Let me put two examples to your paradigm of intelligence and agency being “unpredictable/random”.  The first is Jesus Christ.  Are you saying his mission was unpredictable/random? Or are you saying Jesus Christ was not intelligent and without agency because he was predictable?

The second example is Satan.  Are you saying his work and efforts to destroy the plan of G-d is unpredictable/random – therefore having some possibility of succeeding?  Or are you saying he is not an intelligent being acting with agency?

I submit that good choices are always predictable and that the good and righteous choice is never random - ever.  Likewise, I submit that bad choices are always predictable and that bad and evil choices are never random.  I also submit that the Father would have to know exactly if Jesus would always choose good in order that we have a savior and redeemer.  If Jesus made just one unpredictable/random choice – the plan of salvation could/would fail.  Do you agree?  Does this mean that Jesus was not intelligent and according to your understanding and definition – Jesus coming to earth and being our savior left him without agency and intelligence?

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

We're on page 11 and you're still not understanding a word I'm saying.

I am LDS.  You are too.  We have the exact same understanding of the gift of Free Agency and it's importance in the Plan of Salvation.

And once again... God's culpability - you calling Him evil - ONLY applies in creatio ex nihilo teaching - where NOTHING is a better state than Outer Darkness.  The LDS do not subscribe to creatio ex nihilo doctrine.

You spout Intelligent Design yet when the time comes that we discuss intelligent design in the formation of our spirit bodies you deprive God of intelligence.

Were back to talking about separate things again.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

"Seemingly" is the operative word.  Of course there is nothing random about where nuts and bolts end up in an explosion.  Mathematics can even predict where each one will go and of course, we don't believe Mathematics is God.

Now, who ends up getting killed being "deteremined" is a mortal understanding.  God's purposes are beyond mortal understanding.

This is exactly the same question as somebody bearing his testimony on Fast Sunday saying the Spirit inspired him to dawdle over his breakfast so he didn't die in the Twin Towers.  Does that mean that God saved him but not all the other faithfrul Christians who got buried in the rubble?  So, what is your answer to the 9/11 scenario?  Those faithful Christians died because they didn't listen to the Spirit?  They died because the Spirit didn't inspire them to avoid the towers?  God didn't think they need saving?  The guy saying the Spirit inspired him lied?

My answer is - God's purposes are beyond our mortal understanding.  And this is what I've been trying to explain to Rob.  God exists outside of linear time as time is a mortal understanding.  Whether God himself is subject to linear time or not is beyond our understanding and is, therefore, unanswerable.

Despite my quoting of scripture talking and explaining the reckoning of Gods time...

[anatess2]

9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Despite my quoting of scripture talking and explaining the reckoning of Gods time...

Which was answered by quoted scripture and prophet's words showing that reckoning to be in the point of view of Man's understanding which you ignored, or you responded to saying the prophets are wrong.

Edited March 17, 2017 by anatess2