What do you think of a stay-at-home mother who tells her working husband the following?

[Backroads]

Let's change things somewhat from what you describe above:

The wife is not a very good organizer. She wants to keep a clean and organized home and take great care of the children, but she is easily overwhelmed. She doesn't really know where to start in cleaning the pigsty of a house, and she gets discouraged when she digs in for a few hours, only to find little visible result. She excoriates herself for her failures, so she's not self-justifying. She wishes someone would come along and teach her the self-discipline and organization necessary to run a household, but her family members either aren't very good at that or aren't approachable. She's too ashamed to ask for help from Church friends or leaders. She has read books, but doesn't know how to put them into practice. She has developed many self-defeating habits, such as overt avoidance of necessary tasks, and she recognizes this fact, but again, doesn't know how to overcome them. She beats herself up for her weakness and lack of self-discipline, but ultimately she just wants to figure out how to do what she's supposed to do. She's tired of the self-hatred and occasionally blows up at her husband for his incessant criticisms.

The husband is in exactly the same boat (or an equivalent sailing vessel of some sort) as the wife described above.

I'm going to respond to the original post with this in mind.

In both threads with the above situation, I find all comments, if not out of line, not very well put. We are assuming we have two people with two different roles who are legitimately trying yet struggling.

How is pure criticism going to help anything or anyone?

Now, I can see where each spouse is trying to give the other one help (or at least thinks so) but none of these comments give specific, useful advice.

[Vort]

I'm going to respond to the original post with this in mind.

In both threads with the above situation, I find all comments, if not out of line, not very well put. We are assuming we have two people with two different roles who are legitimately trying yet struggling.

How is pure criticism going to help anything or anyone?

Now, I can see where each spouse is trying to give the other one help (or at least thinks so) but none of these comments give specific, useful advice.

So what is the duty of the person observing and living with the consequences of his/her spouse's struggles?

[Guest]

So what is the duty of the person observing and living with the consequences of his/her spouse's struggles?

Charity and forgiveness.

[MorningStar]

Love without enabling behavior that needs to change and like Eowyn says, charity and forgiveness. Counsel rather than criticism and listen well.

Husband and wife should love each other the way they are, but also encourage each other to progress in life. Some things are really, really hard, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't be done or that we shouldn't keep trying. One of the hardest things for me has been learning to do business. I just wanted to be an employee somewhere and not have to be the one scheduling and asking for payment, but then I realized it would be more profitable and I could work less hours if I were to teach piano on my own rather than applying to a music school. Telling people my policies or reminding them that it was payday was really painful and awkward for me, but now it's been a couple years and it's much less difficult than it was. It's easier now telling people, "It's the beginning of the month." They thank me for the reminder and it's no big deal. The hard thing is still reminding them of my policies, which are pretty standard, but I am learning to brush it off when they don't like it. I still have some stuff to figure out, but I'm proud of myself for following through with something so painful. I have no problem paying people what they are worth, so I don't know why it's so hard for me to expect the same from others. If I don't stand up for myself, that affects me and my family.

My husband ran into a really difficult situation and I urged him to try. Just when he was about to give up, I finally felt it was time to tell him, "You have to try. I won't be mad if you fail, but I will be mad if you don't try." We had sacrificed too much to throw in the towel. He succeeded, so that was a learning experience for him. I didn't feel I was criticizing him, but talking him down from a bad place.

[Just_A_Guy]

So what is the duty of the person observing and living with the consequences of his/her spouse's struggles?

From a private letter of Brigham Young to a man requesting a divorce, as quoted in Turner's recent biography at page 242:

Young "said that when a man married a wife he took her for better or for worse, and had no right to ill use her, and if she s[oil herself] [Young's original language was much more colorful--JAG] in the bed and laid in it until noon; he must bare it."

Edited March 1, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[mdfxdb]

Charity and forgiveness.

Easy to say harder to live with...when do you say you've had enough? Are you supposed to suffer in perpetuity?

[Tough Grits]

I don't think keeping a clean house and keeping a job are exactly equivalent, no. If we don't have any money coming in, we can't eat, can't put a roof over our heads, can't clothe the children, can't provide medical or dental care. If the house is messy there are negative consequences, yes, but a closer parallel would be if the wife refused to grocery shop, get the bills paid, acquire clothes for children (I actually spend a lot of effort to do this as economically as possible), take the kids to the doctor or dentist, etc. You can have a messy house and still meet basic needs. Not in the healthiest environment, but still. . .

Great post, Eowyn! I agree.

Some people, who work very hard and perform well, do so in a cluttered environment. A clean desk or workspace does not necessarily equal efficient or productive.

Now, having said that, my work space is micro-managed down to the last pen. I know exactly where the pen holders, stapler, tape, and so forth should be. No random paper, nothing out of place.

Why? Because I control my workspace. I alone touch my workspace.

However, my home is a different matter. I have one husband, two kids, one dog, and two cats. I am not the "master of my domain" when I am at the mercy of all the other life-forms that live in our home.

When I was a stay-at-home mother (for 3 years after my son was born), my home was always organized and clean, I got up early, I read scriptures, I read books to my kids, I played with them, I cooked meals, I did my Visiting Teaching, I magnified my callings, and so forth.

I have a few things to add to what I just typed:

• Organized and clean does not equal perfect!!!!
• I am ADHD, OCD, and just plain ME (me, myself, and I). Just like no two employees are going to be exactly alike, neither are any two moms!!!
• Apparently my health peculiarities have drawbacks, as I suffered a severe break-down/depression in 2004, that lasted until 2007/2008. And I am still on medicine to control my anxiety, which is usually caused by my frenetic personality.

So, my bottom-line point is this: As long as the "job" of being a mother is being fulfilled who cares about HOW it is being fulfilled. A mother's "job" is to be the nurturer. How she fulfills that calling is wholly unique to each mother/woman.

Let's get rid of the cookie-cutter, June Cleaver, Molly Mormon perceptions and stereotypes of womanhood and/or motherhood.

Kumbaya.

Edited March 2, 2013 by Tough Grits
An incorrectly placed comma. :o)

[Backroads]

So what is the duty of the person observing and living with the consequences of his/her spouse's struggles?

To pick on Husband (who I felt did this right)

"Backroads, you clearly have no idea how to make bread".

"Well, I never learned. My mom only makes rolls."

"Oh. Okay. Next time we head to my parents', my ranch-living mother could show you how she does it. Not that I'm trying to compare you to my mother, but I thought this could be a good learning opportunity for you, if you'd like".

Now, this was a more stretched-out conversation void of personality and color, but it's more or less one we've had.

I will now contrast this with a different conversation...

"Backroads, do you have any idea how to organize a cupboard?"

"What's wrong with our cupboards?"

"I don't like how they're organized. Why can't you organize them better?"

"I hate having to go through some long process to get out what I need!"

Argue.

Argue.

In the first example, Husband gave a domestic criticism... and a solution. In the second example, it was all useless criticism and fighting, ending with Husband having to arrange the cupboards himself since he felt it was so important.

Now, a spouse may not always have a solution on hand. Nor should a spouse have to "just put up with it".

I think the heart of many of the criticisms in your examples are fair. They are stemming from legitimate wants and needs.

Some ideas from me:

• A spouse should offer love with the criticism.

• A spouse, if having an idea for a solution, should offer that politely.

• If no solution idea is available, a spouse could simply say "We should look, together, for a solution to this problem".

• A spouse could ask "Is there anything I can do to help?"

[Tough Grits]

Husband says: Why did you nail the bathmats to the floor?

Wife says: I couldn't find the staple-gun.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Look, if it is something that is my domain, then I may or may not be open to suggestions.

For example, if I am the one who cleans the bathroom, then the husband can complain all he wants about me nailing the bathmats down. However, he is not the one who has to deal with two hateful, mean cats always flipping the mats over and dragging them all over our master bathroom and adjoining walk-in closet.

Now, that was just an example...that may or may not be a true-to-life scenario in my actual home.

My point is: if it isn't killing anybody, if no laws (earthly or eternal) have been broken, and it isn't crucial to the sanctity of marriage or parenthood, then who cares how things get done or accomplished?

If I clean the bathroom, if I feed those two crazy cats, and if I am the one who is always picking up the relocated bathmats, then I should have the right to take a hammer and nails and nail them down if I so desire (the bathmats, not the cats).

Not that this scenario has actually occurred in my home.

[Suzie]

Everyone knows that marriage takes work, having said that kindness and gentleness is so extremely important in a relationship. Many times it isn't what is being said but how it is being said. The way those sentences are phrased in the OP, can cause a husband to feel heartbroken. Women should never assume that just because our spouses are male, they automatically can and should take and swallow all our frustration, bitterness and resentment without saying anything, they have feelings and they are sensitive just as we are. There are other ways to express the same issues without hurting our companion.

[Backroads]

Me thinketh Tough Grits protesteth too much about that bathroom mat conversation not happening...

[mrmarklin]

I don't understand. A man and woman marry at college in their early to mid 20s. What does either of them know of his or her own work abilities and habits, much less the other person's?

.

This is some of my point. Why would anyone marry in this artificial environment (of college)? I did it, and the road was not easy. A son of mine did it and he is now divorced.

Marrying young is a problem because most of us don't have the savvy to evaluate our future spouses. We make assumptions out of our own fairly narrow life experiences. But even at that symptoms can be discerned. Does he go to class on time and regularly? Have a part time job that he does well in?

Obviously, books have been written about this.

[Mahone]

This is some of my point. Why would anyone marry in this artificial environment (of college)? I did it, and the road was not easy. A son of mine did it and he is now divorced.

Marrying young is a problem because most of us don't have the savvy to evaluate our future spouses. We make assumptions out of our own fairly narrow life experiences. But even at that symptoms can be discerned. Does he go to class on time and regularly? Have a part time job that he does well in?

Obviously, books have been written about this.

What age would you suggest is appropriate for marriage?

[Misshalfway]

Charity and forgiveness.

Why does this sound like ... 'never make any mistakes" "never have any feelings" "never have a bad day"?

I don't think this is what you meant. I guess I just think that we don't always know how to practice charity and be honest/open too.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Misshalfway

[Guest]

Why does this sound like ... 'never make any mistakes" "never have any feelings" "never have a bad day"?

I don't know, why? It's sure not what I said. In fact, I'd say that charity and forgiveness are two of the hardest things to work at. Does that mean we shouldn't try, especially with our companions?

If you think I'm just throwing out rote words, I am not. This is my life. I have lots of hard days. I don't handle it as well as I should. I have many feelings I wish I didn't have. Truly, charity and forgiveness, or at least the pursuit of them, make it much easier for me to deal with. I become more apt to look at my husband not as someone whose weaknesses are hard for me, but whose weaknesses are hard for him. I see myself not as a victim, but as someone who also has many weaknesses that he deals with, with an immense amount of love and kindness. We do that for each other because it's a lot easier than being in conflict with each other, on top of life's crappier parts.

[Tough Grits]

We do that for each other because it's a lot easier than being in conflict with each other, on top of life's crappier parts.

Sorry, but I really have to hit the "amen" button on this one.

[Martain]

My father had cancer and underwent surgery to have the tumor removed. The surgeon created a very precise cut using a very precise instrument for a very precise reason. Then after removing the tumor he sealed the wound shut to speed his recovery.

Yes criticism is necessary, yet there is a big difference between a precise targeted surgical cut and hitting someone with a baseball bat.

D&C 121:43 Reproving betimes with sharpness , when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

Anyone see applications regarding criticism?

I have a ways to go before I can receive criticism given in frustration or anger calmly without reacting defensively. I'm also much more likely to not only receive but accept criticism if someone asks permission first and then after giving targeted criticism then builds me up afterwards as well.

If that's me... if that's you... then what unto others should we be striving to do?

Lessons learned (and still needing to be applied) from the book "Without Offense: The Art of Giving and Receiving Criticism" by John L. Lund.