Is G-d or his works a mystery?

[Vort]

Yep, it's dueling scripture* territory.

*More accurately dueling interpretation.

Actually, it's not dueling interpretations. The scriptures teach what they teach, and they manifestly do not teach what Traveler is preaching. It is incumbent on him to establish his unorthodox and extracanonical theories. For him to blurt out an irrelevant scriptural passage and then pretend that it somehow answers the contradiction is not sufficient.

[Dravin]

Actually, it's not dueling interpretations. The scriptures teach what they teach, and they manifestly do not teach what Traveler is preaching. It is incumbent on him to establish his unorthodox and extracanonical theories. For him to blurt out an irrelevant scriptural passage and then pretend that it somehow answers the contradiction is not sufficient.

In other words you interpret the scripture to mean one thing and he interprets it to mean another. I do agree with you that "It's obvious, if you can't see that why discuss it?" is lacking.

[Vort]

In other words you interpret the scripture to mean one thing and he interprets it to mean another. I do agree with you that "It's obvious, if you can't see that why discuss it?" is lacking.

I don't see how you "interpret" God's granting of agency to man in any way other than that God granted man his agency. What other interpretations are there to make?

[Finrock]

Good evening Anddenex! Thanks for your posts, by-the-way. I hope you've been well. :)

Yes, I also think about "organize" and "form" when I use the term creation within LDS gospel discussions.

Thus, I was not using the word "create" as you have suggested -- out of nothing. Thus, how does the one without form say to the creator, "Yes, feel free to organize or form me."

I can't be sure I know what you mean exactly, but your post has helped me by leading me to consider something that I have not considered before. Thank you.

Regards,

Finrock

[Anddenex]

I can't be sure I know what you mean exactly,

Yes, isn't this so true with written communication. :)

[Dravin]

I don't see how you "interpret" God's granting of agency to man in any way other than that God granted man his agency. What other interpretations are there to make?

There is Traveler's for one. At least if I'm reading him correctly, we'll see if he swings by to explain or not.

[Traveler]

I don't understand your question. Are you asking me if we have anything else to discuss?

If you are incapable of following my logical progression and then responding to it, you perhaps are incapable of discussing the issue coherently.

I provided a scripture that says that agency is because of man's intelligence and G-d providing a level where man intelligence was manifested - clearly showing that agency comes in partnership or working with G-d.

I am not sure how you define agency but since you do not accept the scripture destination - what is there to discuss? You do not accept D&C 93 and you have not provided any scripture that you think conclusively proves that G-d granted man agency without man having any part in it.

If someone looks at the sky and says that it is red and there is no blue at all in it - What is the point of attempting to convince them otherwise. If someone stand in the clear light of day and claims that it is night - It is a rather odd expression of their agency - I can't force them to be intelligent - certainly to a much lesser degree that G-d could convince them.

So you think G-d will do things that effect your eternal salvation and you have no input at all - I simply disagree. And you have not provided a scripture to support your notion. What is there to respond to and discuss?

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

This quote is from our scriptures under study helps:

The ability and privilege God gives people to choose and to act for themselves. (The Guide to the Scriptures, Agency)

The interpretation provided by The Traveler, and this quote appear to contradict. We are informed here that agency, our moral agency, is a privilege God has given to people to choose and act for themselves, and not to be acted upon.

In D&C 93, the scriptures shared by The Traveler emphasize an interesting phrase, "All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it," (Doctrine and Covenants, Doctrine and Covenants, Section 93)

I find the wording here very interesting that "to act for ourselves" is in correlation with where God has placed it. The verse references truth, and a few verses before we read "intelligences" are the "light of truth."

What knowledge did our intelligences have in order to have "moral agency"? How did our intelligences gain knowledge? If God is the author of our knowledge, from the beginning, while we were with him, then God did grant all spirits their agency, within the sphere we were placed in. Agency is only obtained with by having a knowledge of opposites, and to be able to be enticed by one of the opposites.

If our intelligences had agency, without God, then our intelligences would have had to have knowledge. How did our intelligences have knowledge, without a giver of knowledge. If God is the author of our knowledge then God is also the author, the giver, of our agency -- moral agency.

[rameumptom]

In the Book of Abraham, it notes that the Gods organized the world, and in commanding it, then waited for it to obey. Obviously there was something before creation of spirits. But was it agency?

If Intelligence is any organized matter (atoms, molecules, elements, spirits, mortals, etc), then does it mean they all have agency? Or does waiting for them to obey simply means the Gods worked through a process? Was the earth created in 6 24 hour periods, or over billions of years, as the processes worked and organized themselves in a natural way?

For me, agency requires not only Intelligence, but individuality. Atoms may have intelligence, but no self-recognition of existence. However the "spirits that were organized" (Abr 3) may have been Intelligences that had been organized into a form that has self-recognition and so then had agency from that point forward.

[Finrock]

Good Morning Vort. I hope you're having a good day! :)

But if you don't agree with my timetable above, then let me make it simpler: God gave man his agency without man requesting or agreeing to it. This is pretty much indisputable, since a man cannot give permission or agreement without already having agency.

In your view, what were you and what was your condition before God formed you spiritually or provided a spirit body?

Regards,

Finrock

[Windseeker]

If we didn't have agency before the garden of eden how did we make the choice to follow the Savior in the premortal existance?

[Traveler]

My 5 statements are meant to create better understanding of how man and G-d interact. These are principles that I believe lead to understanding of G-d and his greatest work or effort - to bring to pass the eternal life and salvation of man. It also helps us understand our role and relationship to G-d.

Principle #5 seem to be in dispute - But throughout my life I have found this principle of great value in dispelling confusion and misinformation about our precious relationship to our Father in heaven and his son Jesus Christ. Every commandment, every act of G-d invites our investment and participation with every step we take towards eternal life.

From the LDS Bible Dictionary and part of our personal study helps to understand scripture and improve our relationship with G-d - concerning prayer we read the following:

As soon as we learn the true relationship in which we stand toward God (namely, God is our Father, and we are His children), then at once prayer becomes natural and instinctive on our part (Matt. 7:7–11). Many of the so-called difficulties about prayer arise from forgetting this relationship. Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of God but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant but that are made conditional on our asking for them. Blessings require some work or effort on our part before we can obtain them. Prayer is a form of work and is an appointed means for obtaining the highest of all blessings.

The concept of our agency is paramount in our relationship with G-d. At the very center and core of Agency is our willing participation. We learn in scripture that Lucifer wanted to remove this aspect in order to obtain more consistent results in securing salvation for all. But we are to understand that in essence Satan was lying - that there is an principle of requiring our participation (agency) in order for us to actually benefit.

This very little and simple principle - that G-d requires and uses our willing participation is not only a necessary defining principle - without this understanding G-d becomes mysteriously inconsistent resulting in endless unresolved discussions over things like free will verses determinism or why it appears that G-d allows evil to happen to innocent and undeserving individuals.

Understanding that our participation is an eternal principle actually helps us navigate "unprincipled" claims concerning G-d and his relationship towards us. Again I submit that those that have faith or believe that G-d will or should force his will on others - are more likely to act in a likewise manner (emulate in their worship).

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

2 Nephi 2; " 27 Wherefore, men are afree according to the bflesh; and call things are dgiven them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to echoose fliberty and eternal glife, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be hmiserable like unto himself."

From lds.org on "Agency and Accountability"; " While here on earth, you are being proven to see if you will use your agency to show your love for God by keeping His commandments. .... You are responsible for the choices you make. ... While you are free to choose your course of action, you are not free to choose the consequences. Whether for good or bad, consequences follow as a natural result of the choices you make."

Agency is tied in with accountability and the natural consequences that follow. We can sum up two points in the plan at which that occurs, the first estate test and the second estate test. Just like the time period of preparation before accountability takes place in this life, less than the age of 8, there likely was a time period before the test began in the pre-mortal life (my thoughts). In any case, we only know about pre-mortal agency at the point at which accountability is enforced, the great war in heaven. How we fare at that point is dependent on our preparation but the agency is reflected in their being consequences to the choice, accountability. We know that accountability is not on 100% of the time because we can give examples of when it is not in effect, under the age of 8 or people who have been given bodies in which they cannot be held accountable. I guess it depends on how strongly one holds on to the tie between agency and accountability. Can one really be a free agent without accountability? I don't think so.

[Guest]

And after 4 pages of discussions it is apparent that....

God or his works is a mystery.

[Traveler]

And after 4 pages of discussions it is apparent that....

God or his works is a mystery.

Sadly it appears you are correct?

Strange that no one wanted to list the attribute of mysterious as an eternal principle of G-d's character. Perhaps there is a rather strange paradox when someone portends to have a relationship (personal relationship???) with a G-d that is in reality a mystery to them????

The Traveler

[estradling75]

What if both the case of having agency from the beginning and God granting unto us agency is correct?

What if agency isn't binary but a spectrum?

We started off with an itty bitty tiny bit and at every step God has worked to grant us more. And he will do this until we say no or until we join him with all the agency he has?

Thus we had agency in the pre-existance to follow Christ, and God granted us even more when he placed Adam and Eve in the garden.

I have no kind of proof for this idea... Its just a thought that came to me

[Traveler]

What if both the case of having agency from the beginning and God granting unto us agency is correct?

What if agency isn't binary but a spectrum?

We started off with an itty bitty tiny bit and at every step God has worked to grant us more. And he will do this until we say no or until we join him with all the agency he has?

Thus we had agency in the pre-existance to follow Christ, and God granted us even more when he placed Adam and Eve in the garden.

I have no kind of proof for this idea... Its just a thought that came to me

I really like this idea and think in the future - I will include it with other opinions that I think are mine.

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

Sadly it appears you are correct?

Strange that no one wanted to list the attribute of mysterious as an eternal principle of G-d's character. Perhaps there is a rather strange paradox when someone portends to have a relationship (personal relationship???) with a G-d that is in reality a mystery to them????

The Traveler

The problem is, through the eyes of basic philosophy, all things are truly a mystery. We only "know" things through perceiving them through our senses. When I see a person, I am only experiencing them in the past, not the present. Yes, it may only have been a tiny moment from when the light reflected off their face and entered my eyes, or I touched them and the nerve signals had to travel to my brain to interpret them, but it still is illusory.

You can describe your feelngs to me, and I can by empathetic towards them, but I cannot directly experience them. In fact, I cannot directly experience many of the things happening to my own body. I cannot directly experience my liver cleansing my blood, for instance. I cannot directly experience my muscles growing (or shrinking). I can only indirectly experience these things, therefore all things are, in effect, a mystery.

However, we can still indirectly experience these things and make value from the experience. I personally know very few of the people on this list (Hi Dravin!), yet I can still relate and have a relationship. And so it is with God, while I do not know all things regarding God, I can relate with him on and in many things. I can build a relationship, even if it is built upon my indirectly experiencing him via feeling the Spirit, reading scripture, or pondering, etc.

And, a key to Mormonism is that we CAN get to know God. D&C 84 tells us that the Melchizedek Priesthood holds the key to the mysteries of godliness, even the key to the knowledge of God. While we only indirectly experience him here, we may directly know him someday. So mysteriousness is not an attribute of God, but it is only a defect of being human. In the Celestial Kingdom, God will not be mysterious, but will be fully known.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Sadly it appears you are correct?

Strange that no one wanted to list the attribute of mysterious as an eternal principle of G-d's character. Perhaps there is a rather strange paradox when someone portends to have a relationship (personal relationship???) with a G-d that is in reality a mystery to them????

The Traveler

Do you think He was mysterious to us in the pre-mortal world? (Or were those rhetorical questions?)

If He wasn't then the "principle" is not eternal, just a temporary situation found behind the veil. Then the reason for mysteriousness would be answered by the same answers for the need for a veil in this life. i.e. - this life is not a test of fund of knowledge but of faith with the limited knowledge given.

[Traveler]

Do you think He was mysterious to us in the pre-mortal world? (Or were those rhetorical questions?)

If He wasn't then the "principle" is not eternal, just a temporary situation found behind the veil. Then the reason for mysteriousness would be answered by the same answers for the need for a veil in this life. i.e. - this life is not a test of fund of knowledge but of faith with the limited knowledge given.

I tend to think that in essence mysteries are either ignorance or misunderstandings. For example, 200 years ago being able to travel from New York to London in the manner of a few hours would seem to be a most mysterious impossibility yet even a grade school child today know that it is not mysterious at all but a simply ride on a jet plane.

There was a song in the 60's that in essence quoted Jesus in saying, "There is none so blind as he that will not see." It is my view that there is nothing sadder than someone that pretends to believe in G-d but refuses to learn of him and his way - insisting that G-d is and must remain a mystery in order to be worthy of worship. For myself, I have found that the more I understand of G-d and his marvelous works (creation) the more I am inclined to think him real and worthy of worship.

The Traveler

[BadWolf]

So.... I rather like the word 'mystery' & have none of the connotations you place on it. Being a total language geek, I went OED:

Definition of mystery

noun (plural mysteries)

1something that is difficult or impossible to understand or explain:

the mysteries of outer space

what happened after he left home that day remains a mystery

[mass noun] secrecy or obscurity:

much of her past is shrouded in mystery

a person or thing whose identity or nature is puzzling or unknown:

‘He’s a bit of a mystery,’ said Nina

[as modifier]:

a mystery guest

2a novel, play, or film dealing with a puzzling crime, especially a murder:

the 1920s murder mystery, The Ghost Train

3 (mysteries) the secret rites of Greek and Roman pagan religion, or of any ancient or tribal religion, to which only initiates are admitted.

the practices, skills, or lore peculiar to a particular trade or activity and regarded as baffling to those without specialized knowledge:

the mysteries of analytical psychology

archaic the Christian Eucharist.

4chiefly Christian Theology a religious belief based on divine revelation, especially one regarded as beyond human understanding:

the mystery of Christ

an incident in the life of Jesus or of a saint as a focus of devotion in the Roman Catholic Church, especially each of those commemorated during recitation of successive decades of the rosary:

the first Sorrowful Mystery, the Agony in the Garden

_____________

So... To my mind, G-d & his works are both mysteries.

As it is impossible for me to hall full knowledge of either.

Just because I can't grok it, though, doesn't make it bad.

Just beyond my ken.

As are many great things.

HOWEVER imperfect my knowledge, my inability to know all things does not negate what I do know.l (or the thing itself)

Case in point: I can flip a light switch, change a bulb, throw a breaker, replace a fuse. But I do not know how to wire a house, can barely grasp electron cascading, and anything past 6th form physics is utterly beyond me. A complete mystery. Yet, electricity exists. I am definitely aware of it. I can use it to some extent. It is exceedingly powerful, dangerous to the inept, life saving, life enhancing, etc. Even though I don't grok it, even though its a mystery, I know it.

SIMILARLY: My son knows me.

With his whole heart and mind, out of all the universe, Im his mum.

He knows MAYBE 5% of me.

In many ways, parents are mysteries to their kids.

Without EVER being unknown to them.

[Seminarysnoozer]

For myself, I have found that the more I understand of G-d and his marvelous works (creation) the more I am inclined to think him real and worthy of worship.

The Traveler

I think you are overlooking what it means to "understand of God and His marvelous works". To understand God at any level requires faith and listening to the spirit. The pitfall of being learned is to speak from the brain and not from the heart. I am, of course, not saying you are doing that but maybe not giving credit to that process that gets you to that point. The way one comes to an understanding of God is through humble faith, through the realization that His ways are unreachable without His assistance. When a person is willing to soften their heart and make it open to the promptings that require faith and humility, then there starts to be an understanding. One can learn of the same "marvelous works" in many ways but without a faithful and humble heart the person gives credit to "nature" or "science" as their God of creation. By you calling it an "understanding of God", by definition faith had to be part of that process, faith in things that are mysterious and unreachable (for now).