Am I wrong in my thinking?

[Dravin]

So, outside of it being a relative, in what other context is the situation in question appropriate?

Why are we excluding relatives? Did the OP come back in and clarify they weren't family? Even if there existed no other context in which the extremely undetailed recounting in the OP was appropriate except for family my comment stands. As far as non family context, within the context of close family friends. Picture this lovely little hypothetical, a close family friend gives her a light smack on the backside with a rolled up Ensign to get her attention.

But wait! I can see someone complaining, it didn't say he used an Ensign! The OP also doesn't say he used his hand. That fundamentally is the issue, there is a complete paucity of detail, insufficient to declare, "Automagically inappropriate!" A swat on the butt covers a wide range of potential scenarios, some appropriate and some not.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Dravin

[Dravin]

However, I do disagree with those who seem to think there couldn't possibly be anything inappropriate when an adult male touches the butt of woman, just because...what...she is younger?

Can I get some quotes or post numbers please?

[bytor2112]

Sometimes people do things without considering how it might look or be perceived by others. Interesting that so many immediately jump to a sexual conclusion?

Maybe this was a friendly return for something the gal had been doing....I once nearly maimed a 15 year old that would often lay some pretty hard licks on my arm unexpectedly. I gave him a heaping taste of his own ...fun and games one day. Had the wrong person saw it they might have been aghast...but it was in good fun, not meanness or malicious.

[selek]

So, outside of it being a relative, in what other context is the situation in question appropriate?

Here's a better question: outside of the automatic and unwarranted assumption that there was a sexual element to this incident, in what way was it inappropriate?

In other words, short of making unwarranted and prudish assumptions, in what way was this wrong?

[selek]

If any male at church put his hand on my butt, slapped me on the butt...whatever....there would be a swift and clear response.

Your body, your prerogative.

Why, exactly, are the rest of us bound by your preferences?

I am not saying that I know the particular situation described in the OP was inappropriate, if it were father and daughter and the daughter is okay with that....although it doesn't automatically mean it is okay just because it is a family member.

Agreed. If the attention and contact are unwelcome, then it is not appropriate.

However, I do disagree with those who seem to think there couldn't possibly be anything inappropriate when an adult male touches the butt of woman, just because...what...she is younger?

Ummm....who here has made such an argument?

I have not. Nor has Draven, Vort, or Anatess.

We simply object to the automatic assumption that this High Priest was in the wrong because some random third-party got his knickers in a knot.

Some people make the argument that breasts are not "overtly sexual". That they are merely functional in nature...their purpose is to feed babies. Is touching breasts also okay?

Again, context is everything.

[MarginOfError]

He he, those butts are just asking to be slapped. :).

As a tangent, this is an example of a statement that could be made between two coworkers and be reported as sexual harassment by a third party in the workplace.

But in nearly all other particulars, I agree with Vort. Proceed now to read my signature.

[bytor2112]

As a tangent, this is an example of a statement that could be made between two coworkers and be reported as sexual harassment by a third party in the workplace.

He he, those butts are just asking to be slapped

Unless one was speaking of barbque....of course.

Edited May 22, 2013 by bytor2112

[selek]

Sometimes people do things without considering how it might look or be perceived by others. Interesting that so many immediately jump to a sexual conclusion?

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

Maybe this was a friendly return for something the gal had been doing....I once nearly maimed a 15 year old that would often lay some pretty hard licks on my arm unexpectedly. I gave him a heaping taste of his own ...fun and games one day. Had the wrong person saw it they might have been aghast...but it was in good fun, not meanness or malicious.

Indeed- playful swats and pokes are common to the interplay in my family, even with my daughters and nieces.

When they were younger (and so was I) they demanded that we play monster and had me chase them all over the neighborhood. When I caught them, I'd scoop them up laughing and screaming and throw them over my shoulder or tuck them under an arm and walk off with them.

Should I have said 'no" because snoopy Mrs. Kravitz might leap to the wrong conclusion?

My wife and I served a calling in the Nursery in a military ward in Virginia.

With so many Dads away on deployment- and the nature of military families- for a lot of these kids, I was the only man in thier lives who'd get down on the floor and play with them.

I can't tell you how many pony rides I gave, how many tackles and dogpiles I endured, or how much "rough housing" we did at Church (I was always extraordinarily careful and never had a child injured on my watch).

And yes- at least one nattering Nabob pitched a fit to the Bishop because my actions were "inappropriate for a priesthood holder", in her stentorian opinion.

Being a military man himself, the Bishop never called me on the carpet, but he did stop in to see how things were going- and told us to keep up the good work.

So- should I have stayed off the floor just in case Sister Such-and-such get offended?

Or should I have kept my focus where I believe it was needed; on being there for those kids?

[skippy740]

IMO, the nursery and conduct with developing young women are apples & oranges.

[selek]

IMO, the nursery and conduct with developing young women are apples & oranges.

I would agree- except for the common denominator that in both instances, an uninvolved, uninformed third-party wants to raise a fuss based on their private definition of "inappropriate behavior".

The settings may be different; the principle is the same.

Unless my conduct is criminal, abusive, or dangerous (none of which has been demonstrated in the case of this High Priest)- just who are YOU (rhetorical, not personal 'you") to tell me it's "inappropriate"?

[skippy740]

Perhaps I think that missionary conduct in regards to the opposite sex is appropriate for Church conduct.

White Handbook Page 25:

Opposite Sex

Never be alone with or associate inappropriately with anyone of the opposite sex. Flirting or dating is not tolerated. You are not to telephone, write to, or accept calls or letters from anyone of the opposite sex living within or near mission boundaries.

You and your companion may visit single members or investigators of the opposite sex, including divorced persons, only when accompanied by a couple or another adult member of your sex. Try to teach single investigators in a member's home, or have missionaries of the same sex teach them. Always follow this rule, even if the situation seems harmless.

Now, let's get real. Most of this is intended for active missionaries serving the Lord. That's obvious. But even if you're flirting with someone, is it appropriate to swat them on their behind? That seems to fit into the first sentence.

There are reasons for these rules... and personally, I think that while missionaries are under a covenant inherent with their calling to follow them, I think it's just a good idea for ALL of us to follow them - particularly at Church. Note that the second paragraph there seems to fit with current conduct rules in regards to home teaching single sisters.

And yes, I suppose I proved Selek's point. Who am "I" to judge the situation using these rules?

It seems like common sense to me, and I'd stick by that.

Edited May 22, 2013 by skippy740

[RipplecutBuddha]

Last Sunday, at church, while waiting, in the hallway, for the youth to set up chairs for Priesthood opening exercises. I saw a HP walk up behind a teen girl and swat her on the butt.It made me feel uncomfortable, because it didn't seem like the proper thing to do.

The girl, who is very beautiful. ( don't know if that has anything to do with it. But, it might)

was not upset. In fact. When she turned around and saw who it was they exchanged pleasantries. I don't know. Perhaps she could be his daughter. But even if she is the gesture just seems inappropriate, for inside the church.

I have talked to an old friend through e-mail, and she says that I should talk to the Bishop. I also belong to another site LDS Singles. I posted about this. The ones that commented on the post all said I should talk to my HP group leader or the Bishop.

My concerns are. I don't want to take up the Bishop's or HPGL's time if this is nothing I should be concerned about.

I was thinking about watching and waiting to see if it happens again, in which case I will talk to the Bishop.

What do you folks think? Wait to see if it happens again, or talk to the Bishop now? Thanks Brother Ray.

My two bits.....Let it go.

Yes it seems inappropriate, however neither of the individuals directly involved seemed to be uncomfortable about it.

It bugs you, but then you weren't intended to be involved.

Part of having agency is accepting the fact that others will act inappropriately in public.

I can understand how you would be offended by it, but really....it didn't seem to matter by the end of that day. Don't let it be an issue any longer. If anything wrong did take place, they will answer for it themselves. Nobody else was harmed....just let it go.

There are more important issues to worry about than this.

[Finrock]

Why are we excluding relatives? Did the OP come back in and clarify they weren't family? Even if there existed no other context in which the extremely undetailed recounting in the OP was appropriate except for family my comment stands. As far as non family context, within the context of close family friends. Picture this lovely little hypothetical, a close family friend gives her a light smack on the backside with a rolled up Ensign to get her attention.

But wait! I can see someone complaining, it didn't say he used an Ensign! The OP also doesn't say he used his hand. That fundamentally is the issue, there is a complete paucity of detail, insufficient to declare, "Automagically inappropriate!" A swat on the butt covers a wide range of potential scenarios, some appropriate and some not.

This is the point I'm defending:

I am saying that a high priest swatting the butt of a teenage girl who might not be their daughter is strange enough to warrant another consideration especially given what is known about how sexual predators operate and because statistics indicate that child sexual abuse is all too common and in most cases perpetrated by someone the victim knows.

I am also saying that it is a rational position for a person to think that the touching might not be appropriate and to at least be aware until they know better.

"All members, especially parents and leaders, are encouraged to be alert and diligent and do all they can to protect children and others against abuse and neglect" (Handbook 2).

Regards,

Finrock

[selek]

Finrock, I have no objection to your position as detailed in Post #87.

[Dravin]

This is the point I'm defending:

Um... Okay...

[selek]

Did you want a cookie or something?

Ooh! Yes, please!

Otherwise I'll have to make my own using the white chocolate chunks and macadamia nuts in the pantry- and that would be baaadddd....

[Dravin]

Ooh! Yes, please!

Otherwise I'll have to make my own using the white chocolate chunks and macadamia nuts in the pantry- and that would be baaadddd....

I edited my post, it came out snarkier, in my mind, then called for. That said, you're best off choosing something. I make okay cookies, but where I shine are lemon squares. :)

Edited May 22, 2013 by Dravin

[pam]

Ooh! Yes, please!

Otherwise I'll have to make my own using the white chocolate chunks and macadamia nuts in the pantry- and that would be baaadddd....

Wait a minute....I seem to remember some promise of key lime pie or something along that line.

[Roseslipper]

the problem here is we dont know if this butt slap was innocent or not!!! bottom line!!! and everyone is entitled to their point of view. I cant believe the contention just because some agree with one way or another..or putting others down for their way of thinking...I truely think enough has been said about this post. And the bottom line is the Op will make up their mind. We gave enough suggestions, imho its time to close this post.

[selek]

Wait a minute....I seem to remember some promise of key lime pie or something along that line.

Yep- when do you plan to deliver ?

[Drpepper]

whats the bottom line ?

ah just couldn't help myself..

[mnn727]

Really? So if we see inappropriate behavior with a minor child, we should just butt out? I think I'd rather be safe than sorry.

So this is a Grandfather/granddaughter (or even a father/daughter since you really can't tell these days) - still inappropriate?

Sorry, my advice about butting out stands.

[Guest]

whats the bottom line ?

ah just couldn't help myself..

Here's the buttocks line as I've stated in my very first post on this thread...

If it gave the OP pause, then he needs to go talk to either the HP or the girl to determine the situation. If he's too chicken to do it, then he will have to leave it alone. So, if he feels it is serious enough, then he will find the courage to do something about it.

The rest of my posts on the thread is simply trying to make people understand that there are people - like me - who do not find butt swatting inappropriate for certain situations. And skippy was trying to impress upon us that ALL butt swatting - even among father and daughter - is inappropriate.

And for the umpteenth time, I want to know who has the rule-book on appropriate/inappropriate. Because - being Filipino living in America and seeing my American husband swat people's buttocks as atta-boys, I didn't know that in America, swatting buttocks is deemed inappropriate. How am I supposed to know that?

Edited May 22, 2013 by anatess

[beefche]

It's not a Filipino thing. I do not find butt swatting offensive in and of itself. The act itself isn't offensive or inappropriate to me. It is the context of it that could make it offensive or inappropriate.

[Anddenex]

I swat my wife's buttox all the time, love taps...I especially like swatting her buttox when we are in stores and she doesn't know its me; oh boy, you should have seen her jump the last time

My favorite one, when she didn't see me coming at Church, and I pinched her buttox...however, this one I was told "never do it again....oooohh." Not sure it has sunk in yet though.

Time will tell, when she is unaware....