Church maintains association with BSA

[Guest]

I'm glad to see you finally articulate some nuance, selek.

Now, do you think it is fair to hold all chartering organizations in the BSA to your reading of eternal law? For instance, the Episcopal church that charters my scout troop does not believe that homosexual sex with a committed partner is any more wrong than heterosexual sex with a committed partner. Should the homosexual males of that Episcopal church be barred membership in its scout troop?

The BSA is a private enterprise. Fairness only applies as such that BSA sets rules and everybody who FREELY joined the program gets to follow them. THEY defined what was morally correct. An LDS, Catholic, Episcopalian... heck, a Martian, goes by what the BSA defines as morally correct and then apply their own twists as long as it still follows BSA rules. That's why LDS used BSA programs because the BSA rules comply with LDS moral standards.

The sad state of affairs is when BSA changes their moral standards. When this becomes such that it doesn't align with LDS moral standards anymore, then I believe the Presidency will cut the ties between LDS and the BSA.

Is it fair for my franchise to ban liquor from all restaurants in my franchise? Yes. It's my franchise. I get to set rules.

Edited May 24, 2013 by anatess

[MarginOfError]

The BSA is a private enterprise. Fairness only applies as such that BSA sets rules and everybody who FREELY joined the program gets to follow them. THEY defined what was morally correct. An LDS, Catholic, Episcopalian... heck, a Martian, goes by what the BSA defines as morally correct and then apply their own twists as long as it still follows BSA rules. That's why LDS used BSA programs because the BSA rules comply with LDS moral standards.

The sad state of affairs is when BSA changes their moral standards. When this becomes such that it doesn't align with LDS moral standards anymore, then I believe the Presidency will cut the ties between LDS and the BSA.

Is it fair for my franchise to ban liquor from all restaurants in my franchise? Yes. It's my franchise. I get to set rules.

The odd thing in that logic is that the BSA deliberately doesn't define moral standards. It has pushed that responsibility to the chartering organizations to determine...except in the instance of homosexuals. You're right, they have the privilege of doing so. Where we disagree is on whether they should do so.

[annewandering]

Hmmm. The church statement says nothing about gay people being men or self sacrificing or any thing else that has been discussed. The Church says that gay is not the issue. Chastity is what the scouts uphold. Anyone can be chaste and that is all that is required as far as sex goes in scouts.

[Backroads]

It's times like this I wish I hadn't quit my job to be a stay at home mom. I need to run to my old (Scout) office to hear more and come back and share it.

I don't know if I'm particularly glad the Church is staying with the BSA, but I understand the reasoning.

One of my old co-workers just got a new job with the LDS Relations in the BSA. Great time for her to go in.

[Backroads]

MOE, this makes sense. Although, Venturing is normally 17 years old right? Would those 12 to 16 pose different challenges?

Venturing is technically 14-21. From my experience with it, most crews are rather good at differentiating challenges between the ages.

[carlimac]

And this is why the agenda is pernicious.

Here we have a self-avowed Latter-day Saint on a Mormon discussion board congratulating someone for deliberately living a life contrary to eternal law and Church teachings.

And hardly anyone blinks at the tacit endorsement...

Just looking the other way Selek. I just don't want to know this kind of information nor do I want to judge someone elses Idea of what's to be congratulated. We all mostly already know Wingnuts' thoughts about this kind of thing. It's not unexpected.

Edited May 25, 2013 by carlimac

[carlimac]

Well, the post I'm questioning has been edited since I first read and quoted it, in my own defense.

Nope. It was in there from the beginning. I just expounded on it in my edit.

[carlimac]

Okay, something more substantive: (red and blue additions are mine)*

* None of the statements indicate that "all gay/straight men" or "only gay/straight men" do the things pointed out. These are only to point out that gay men can do as many 'manly' things as straight men can. Again, it isn't about the one attribute we don't like, it's about the sum of all of their attributes and choices.

Why don't you take this up with the prophet, or Elder Bednar after his conference talk, or better yet, ask Heavenly Father what he thinks abou this topic. You might come to find out you don't believe Church doctrine at all.

[carlimac]

I'm glad to see you finally articulate some nuance, selek.

Now, do you think it is fair to hold all chartering organizations in the BSA to your reading of eternal law? For instance, the Episcopal church that charters my scout troop does not believe that homosexual sex with a committed partner is any more wrong than heterosexual sex with a committed partner. Should the homosexual males of that Episcopal church be barred membership in its scout troop?

Yes.

[selek]

Yes.

Careful, C.

Such a lack of "nuance" will get you excluded from the company of "the beautiful people".

(What with moral flexibility/fluidity and a thirst for "diversity" in all fields except thought and ideology being the highest virtue these days.)

[bytor2112]

Then he'll know what it feels like when a girl turns down a pass from a boy.

Really? Girls give guys black eyes or worse? And what,... the rest of the Troop won't find out and react?

THEY WON'T. This is something we've been trying to clarify for a long time now. Homosexuals are more than just their sexuality. It's one aspect of them, and one that doesn't warrant a whole lot of discussion.

Wait, homosexuals are..not people attracted to their own gender? That's NOT the reason they are called homosexual? What then defines someone as homosexual?

Now you're just being ridiculous, and throwing out issues that aren't even relevant to the discussion. But tell you what, we'll introduce a ribbon for gay scouts the same day we introduce a ribbon for straight scouts (which might be as soon as a straight person can identify the day that they decided to be straight).

Thirty years ago the very idea that homosexual marriage or gay scouts or the whole perverse agenda would ever gain traction and become acceptable was ridiculous. Thirty years ago the idea that Latter Day Saints would ever think it was okay would have been unthinkable.

Again, it really isn't about the kids or for the benefit of the kids. It is all about the radical homosexual agenda.

[Wingnut]

Why don't you...ask Heavenly Father what he thinks abou this topic.

You assume that MOE hasn't. I don't know if he has or not, but just because his view doesn't agree with yours doesn't mean that he hasn't prayed about it.

[bytor2112]

I wonder what it is about having sex with another man that makes one so full of self-indulgence and so incapable of self-sacrifice and selflessness....

Homosexual sex is an act of self indulgence and serves no other purpose than to satisfy a perverse and unnatural desire. If two men want to enter into this unholy practice..that is their choice. If they, the gay agenda folks, were interested in self -sacrifice and selflessness they would leave kids alone.

[Soulsearcher]

Ok being its been said with some authority and stated seemingly as a fact I have to ask how many people who know this for a fact have talked to gay youth of scouting age and have heard from their mouth that this does nothing for them and serves no purpose at all for them. I'd like to hear about these in deapth talks and what these youths had to say on the subject being you had to have a number of conversations to get this set as a fact instead of a biased opinion of a group you just don't seem to like.

[Suzie]

I read all the posts. Just a couple of thoughts:

1. Gay men just happen to feel attracted to people of their same gender, doesn't prevent them from fulfilling what society perceives as other gender based roles.

Most gays I know are content and happy with their own gender and they are not less "men" just because they attracted to Shawn instead of Shawna. Believing that gay men want to be "girls" or wish to be "women" is knowing very little about homosexuality.

2. BSA is NOT The LDS Church. 'Nuff said.

3. Boy Scout program for gays? Seriously? Fantastic idea, let's separate them. I propose one just for African-Americans and of course one just for Latinos too, and let's not forget about those Jews!

[bytor2112]

Ok being its been said with some authority and stated seemingly as a fact I have to ask how many people who know this for a fact have talked to gay youth of scouting age and have heard from their mouth that this does nothing for them and serves no purpose at all for them. I'd like to hear about these in deapth talks and what these youths had to say on the subject being you had to have a number of conversations to get this set as a fact instead of a biased opinion of a group you just don't seem to like.

I doubt very seriously that there are that many gay scouts or long lines of gay kids clamoring to join scouts. And really...is it even fair to label a kid gay at this age? For the record, it is not a dislike for any youth that may be questioning or having feelings of SSA...it is the agenda of the adults that spike my blood pressure.

FYI..scouting age is 12-18. In my experience most boys have checked out by about 15 and sometimes earlier. Scouting just isn't that exciting anymore by that age. In the church, it can be even earlier.but it is a Wednesday night activity and they come..or at least they show up in body. So really, how many candid conversations should adult volunteers have with 12-13 years old about their sexual feelings? Why not let the BSA keep it's innocence?

[bytor2112]

3. Boy Scout program for gays? Seriously? Fantastic idea, let's separate them. I propose one just for African-Americans and of course one just for Latinos too, and let's not forget about those Jews!

Why do you lump someone's race or religion in with sexual proclivity? Homosexuality is not a race or gender or ethnicity or religion( although, I could be wrong, because so many are fanatical to the point of religious fervor). The oft compared civil rights struggle or blacks and interracial marriage being compared to the g/l marriage issue is appalling and applying that same line of reasoning in this discussion is as well.

[carlimac]

Hmmm. The church statement says nothing about gay people being men or self sacrificing or any thing else that has been discussed. The Church says that gay is not the issue. Chastity is what the scouts uphold. Anyone can be chaste and that is all that is required as far as sex goes in scouts.

But herein lies the BIG problem. Apparently, I just learned on the other thread I started that being "morally clean" as the Scout oath states doesn't necessarily equate to chastity. Apparently, if it's OK with the chartering organization to have sex before marriage, and the young man agrees within himself that's being morally clean, then it's alrighty with the BSA. Doesn't matter to them. So...that means that it's okee dokee also to have sexually promiscuous gay boys in BSA if the chartering org is on board with it and if the boy simply thinks he's being morally clean.

It's a sham.

Edited May 25, 2013 by carlimac

[carlimac]

Now now MOE we know they are right. I mean when i was a nanny it was proven very clear to me. I mean i worked 16 hours a day, 6 days a week for a good LDS family. The father was a man who gave blessings to his family and held a temple recommend. I got to know him very well when i was taking care of his five kids while he locked himself in his computer room and played games and watched porn. I was so greedy i took a whole 500 dollars a month and even sometimes you know worked full 24-7 weeks for free just cause i needed to take all i could from that nice wholesome LDS familly that allowed their oldest son to molest their younger kids and threaten me when i said something needed to be done and then hid it when i did push a bit. When they divorced and the good LDS father ran because he was facing charges of molesting exchange student, i did the most dishonorable thing of buying food, clothing and supplies for the kids and giving my weekends to care for them because their mother had to work in another city to support them.

i mean all of that giving and doing for others, trying to help and make sure others are cared for has nothing to do with being a good man or a good scout. sigh, when will we learn from our betters that we just don't have what it takes

So just because a member of the church didn't honor his covenants, that means you are off the hook for keeping yours? ( Whether you believe you did or not, you took upon yourself sacred covenants when you were baptized.) Just because you are a really nice guy doesn't mean that acting on homosexuality is OK. Nor does being a nice guy make you a man.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Nor does a wrong and a right make two rights. Doing something right ( all your good deeds) doesn't cancel out the wrongs you've done. As far as I remember, we are responsible for all our deeds whether good or bad.

Aren't we talking theoretically about if homosexuality pairs up well with the BSA? Or have we morphed into the rightness or wrongness of being gay or straight? I'm confused.

Edited May 25, 2013 by carlimac

[annewandering]

But here inlies the BIG problem. Apparently, I just learned on the other thread I started that being "morally clean" as the Scout oath states doesn't necessarily equate to chastity. Apparently, if it's OK with the chartering organization to have sex before marriage, and the young man agrees within himself that's being morally clean, then it's alrighty with the BSA. Doesn't matter to them. So...that means that it's okee dokee also to have sexually promiscuous gay boys in BSA if the chartering org is on board with it and if the boy simply thinks he's being morally clean.

It's a sham.

How does that affect the boy scouts sponsored by the church? Our standard of morality is abstinence whether it is the same for another sponsoring organization. We have nothing to do with them, boy scouts or not.

Doesnt it start to be a matter of trusting the church to do what is right? If it becomes a problem the church will drop the program. I have absolutely no doubt of that at all.

[Traveler]

I hesitate in making comments because I see that there are circumstances in which discussing the gay issues is a no win situation. My personal experience with “gay” individuals is a very wide and broad spectrum. In general I believe that to participate in gay sex is contrary to the commandments of G-d and is a sin – I also feel that such activity is of no benefit at all for society. And just as lusting after forbidden heterosexual activity is a sin so is lusting for a homosexual activity a sin. During my life time I have seen and witnessed individuals caught up in heterosexual sinful practices repent and overcome their addiction and become strong trusted members of the church in positions of great responsibility. I also am a witness to a young man caught up in homosexuality that repented and was baptized, married and become a strong trusted member of the church holding the calling of bishop. This individual testified to me of his attraction to his wife – not that he is forever cured but like an alcoholic has learned to be sober and free of the problem by avoiding the circumstance.

For myself I have been exposed to things that though they seem attractive – I cannot indulge – even just a little. I do not intend to indulge myself a little because I recognize a weakness. As I grew up I was introduced to pornography. These things are enticing to me and I have learned the best way is to avoid self-indulgence in such things – avoiding pornography is the only sure way I know to not become addicted to it. I am also extremely uncomfortable with females that wear things that seem provocative to my standards. I do not want to even be friendly so I make conversations in such circumstance as short as I can. I find it ironic that some think I am being holier than thou and judging others – but in reality they are judging me and my “hidden” weakness.

But back to the question at hand. I believe there is one thing about being kind and compassionate to one another – it is quite something else to enable forbidden things. I will ask others not to smoke, swear or make vulgar remarks in my presents – I also see no problem in asking homosexuals to respect my position and not pursue behavior that is uncomfortable for me or I will not prefer to remain in their presents or have them in my presents where I control the circumstance (like my home) – and I do understand if my behavior with my wife is likewise uncomfortable to them – I understand and will not force the issue. If it is necessary to be in their presents where they control the environment I will respect that circumstance – but will not pursue much beyond that environment.

I also feel that there is much in the subject of intimate relationships that should be kept from the general public and not put on display. There are things that are private that I intend to keep private. I also respect the privacy of others.

One last comment – I was first introduced to homosexuality while a Boy Scout. I did not like it at all to be pressured to “try” it then and I firmly do not believe that any child should ever be pressured to “try” it – I believe such pressure is the very definition of a child being abused. And yes it does not matter the sex of the person pressuring a child to try sexual activity – it is still child abuse.

The Traveler

[carlimac]

How does that affect the boy scouts sponsored by the church? Our standard of morality is abstinence whether it is the same for another sponsoring organization. We have nothing to do with them, boy scouts or not.

Doesnt it start to be a matter of trusting the church to do what is right? If it becomes a problem the church will drop the program. I have absolutely no doubt of that at all.

What about MOE who says he or his boys or whoever it is are members of an Episcopalian chartered troop? And the Episcopal church applauds gay marriage. Not every LDS boy in the country has an LDS chartered troop close enough to belong to.

[Suzie]

Why do you lump someone's race or religion in with sexual proclivity? Homosexuality is not a race or gender or ethnicity or religion( although, I could be wrong, because so many are fanatical to the point of religious fervor).

Because all these groups are/have been discriminated at some point AND because I do believe having a separate scout program for gays is discriminatory, just like if we would have one for African Americans, Jews, Latinos or Special Needs people.

The whole issue here is that people seems to erroneously think that the BSA is a religious organization and it is NOT. They do partner with religious bodies but that's not make them religious in nature.

What I am seeing is that some people are just trying to force/pressure the BSA to fit/accept their moral standards to the WHOLE organization. I have problem with that.

[bytor2112]

Because all these groups are/have been discriminated at some point AND because I do believe having a separate scout program for gays is discriminatory, just like if we would have one for African Americans, Jews, Latinos or Special Needs people.

Again, homosexuality is not a race....blacks can't hide or change or do anything about their skin color or latinos, etc.

The whole issue here is that people seems to erroneously think that the BSA is a religious organization and it is NOT. They do partner with religious bodies but that's not make them religious in nature.

No, No, No.the whole issue here is that the radical homosexual agenda will stop at nothing to force homosexuality on any and all who would still suggest that it is morally objectionable.

What I am seeing is that some people are just trying to force/pressure the BSA to fit/accept their moral standards to the WHOLE organization. I have problem with that.

Yes..here you are correct. The homosexual movement is doing exactly as you suggest. They are forcing there moral standards or lack there of on the whole.

[Backroads]

Not every LDS boy in the country has an LDS chartered troop close enough to belong to.

But the majority do. According to the handbook, if the ward or branch has enough boys to make a troop (you need a minimum of two) that ward or branch is supposed to charter a troop.