A little foreshadowing?

[AnthonyB]

I have had the impression that our societies (ie Western cultures) have been "degenderizing" for the last 40 years. Each individual step may at times seem beneficial or even trivial but I can't help see the pattern. A relentless tide to remove gender. Now as Christians (LDS or traditional) gender is seen from scripture as a God given gift, to assist us in understanding the fullness of God (although we disagree on what this fullness is). The trick is to differentiate between what is merely a cultural tradition and what is intrinsic to gender.

Speaking for myself, having grown up with an absent father, Father's Day was not a day I enjoyed as boy, it reminded me of what I didn't have. However those feelings are part of the spur to ensure that I'm not an absent Dad, it has helped drive me to aim to be a better Dad then mine was to me.

[bytor2112]

I know life isn't fair, but I'm worried about that fact being used as an excuse to not even try to be sensitive to people's needs/situations (and then call them all sorts of names). I think kids will develop backbones even if we try to be nice to them.

I guess where I struggle is why we can't be sensitive and yet keep things as they are.....it's like giving trophy's to all the kids and telling them they are all winners when it really isn't the case. And as for calling names...tongue and cheek, LW, but in this forum a realistic description of best intentions gone awry.

Not having two parent families is nothing new, dad's leave, dad's get killed in war, die from disease, dad's can be sorry, dad's are in jail and the same goes for mom's....what is new about it? Maybe the thought of little Johnny or Sally feeling sad will make some dead beat Dad or Mom step up or cause little Johnny or Sally to become exceptional parents.

[carlimac]

Not having two parent families is nothing new, dad's leave, dad's get killed in war, die from disease, dad's can be sorry, dad's are in jail and the same goes for mom's....what is new about it? Maybe the thought of little Johnny or Sally feeling sad will make some dead beat Dad or Mom step up or cause little Johnny or Sally to become exceptional parents.

Along with this, I would hope that our society being unwilling to budge for the minority's demands and standing firm against letting tradition get bullied, I would hope that kids growing up in same gender parent homes would have a lightbulb go on and say...this set-up isn't best for kids. And the trend will slow and eventually die out.

[LittleWyvern]

But sometimes the way we try to "be nice" to kids (bend over backwards to make sure they don't get hurt or offended by anything) doesn't really help them. It actually weakens them.

I guess where I struggle is why we can't be sensitive and yet keep things as they are.....it's like giving trophy's to all the kids and telling them they are all winners when it really isn't the case.

Of course there's a balance between being too inclusive (being "too nice" or overusing "everyone's a winner") and not being inclusive at all ("tough luck kid," etc.). I'm trying to say that it's important to try to find this balance.

And as for calling names...tongue and cheek, LW, but in this forum a realistic description of best intentions gone awry.

All of these names you've been using--whiny, weak, entitled, mamby pamby(?), jack wagon(??)--don't sound very tongue in cheek to me. You're using them as the basis of your arguments.

Maybe the thought of little Johnny or Sally feeling sad will make some dead beat Dad or Mom step up or cause little Johnny or Sally to become exceptional parents.

I hope it does too. However, I still don't see how making little Johnny and/or Sally feel bad because we can is somehow required for this to happen. It's not their fault, and they probably make themselves feel bad enough on their own.

[jerome1232]

Just to throw a personal bit in, I was a fatherless child, seeing other kids make stuff for daddy didn't "make me feel sad".

Mothers and Fathers are very important, they deserve their two separate days of being honored. Stop trying to take it away from them because some "parents" don't live up to the responsibility.

Edited June 20, 2013 by jerome1232

[Jenamarie]

Nobody's "taking it away" though. They're just not celebrating it at school. The kids can still make their mom breakfast in bed and buy their dad a tacky tie outside of school. And especially considering how NEW Mother's and Father's Day are, in the history of families, and that they were created more to sell greeting cards than celebrate mothers or father's, it's being un-celebrated in a place outside the actual family home isn't something I can really get my dander up about.

[bytor2112]

All of these names you've been using--whiny, weak, entitled, mamby pamby(?), jack wagon(??)--don't sound very tongue in cheek to me. You're using them as the basis of your arguments.

I wouldn't call a kid any of these names..(though back when I was a baseball coach) but, if you think they are unkind descriptions , then imagine adults who actually are this way. we don't need kids growing up this way...weak, whiny with a sense of entitlement. And c'mon mamby pamby and jack wagon...thatis good stuff. (Geico commercial) And ...purposely being non PC.... ;-)

[prisonchaplain]

I hope it does too. However, I still don't see how making little Johnny and/or Sally feel bad because we can is somehow required for this to happen. It's not their fault, and they probably make themselves feel bad enough on their own.

Here I thought we were coming to some sort of an understanding! Yikes! I reject the notion that society makes kids feel bad by celebrating mothers and fathers. It is sad that some do not have them. However, if they insist that we stifle our celebrations they are indeed Nihilists. Frankly, though, it is not the fatherless or motherless who try to destroy cultural traditions, but rather is is some well-meaning social progressives willing to jettison the joy of the many in a misguided attempt to salve their wounded hearts.

[prisonchaplain]

Nobody's "taking it away" though. They're just not celebrating it at school. The kids can still make their mom breakfast in bed and buy their dad a tacky tie outside of school. And especially considering how NEW Mother's and Father's Day are, in the history of families, and that they were created more to sell greeting cards than celebrate mothers or father's, it's being un-celebrated in a place outside the actual family home isn't something I can really get my dander up about.

They celebrated it in school for generations. Then, some foolish few decided to indeed TAKE IT AWAY, because they thought doing so would ease the wounds of the motherless and fatherless. Taking away cultural celebrations will do precious little for those kids--but we do indeed have a right to be up in a dander over those who would rob us of our public cultural traditions.

[Jenamarie]

They celebrated it in school for generations. Then, some foolish few decided to indeed TAKE IT AWAY, because they thought doing so would ease the wounds of the motherless and fatherless. Taking away cultural celebrations will do precious little for those kids--but we do indeed have a right to be up in a dander over those who would rob us of our public cultural traditions.

They're not obliterating Mother's Day, they're just not "celebrating" it in school anymore, and replacing it with what I think is a wonderful substitute, a "Family Day". Many many more generations of public school kids *didn't* celebrate Mother's Day or Father's Day because the holiday hadn't been invented yet. Did they somehow grow up to honor their parents less than those who *did* celebrate it in school? It's not as if the holiday doesn't exist outside of the public school setting. I homeschool, and I didn't include the holidays into my school planning at all, just wrote it up on the family calender. Didn't stop me from getting special hand-made cards and sloppy kisses from my kids Mother's Day morning.

There are a lot of social trends that have come and gone from public schools, and the world keeps turning.

[prisonchaplain]

Yes it does keep turning...more and more joyless. Can't do anything related to Christmas or Easter, because the few active Jews and Muslims might be offended. Cannot read Huck Finn, because some of the language might offend some. Baccaluareates are largely gone, because, though voluntary, some perceive them as state sanction of religion. Now, it's mothers and fathers day, 'cause some believe this generation is particular fragile, and will be damaged by the celebration of others.

I keep hearing that public schools don't have to do these things. There were ages past when they didn't. But, why must the tail get to wag the dog over and over again? And why are we made to feel like bullies for wanting to keep some of the fun and joy-filled traditions for today's kids that we enjoyed in our childhoods.

Maybe it's the social progressives who are the bullies--robbing our traditions one at a time, in the name of faceless victims who have raised no objections of their own.

[Bini]

Oh, my, heck.

Family Day encompasses Mother's Day AND Father's Day -- nothing is taken away. For anyone to think that "Family Day" is discarding the traditional Mother's/Father's Day is misinformed. It is celebrating ALL THE ABOVE, mummies and daddies included. It's an INCLUSIVE concept, not a linear one. Nothing is being taken away or discarded, just added to.

Aiya! I feel like spouting off my frustrations in Tagalog but Anatess would know what I'm saying...

[LittleWyvern]

Here I thought we were coming to some sort of an understanding! Yikes! I reject the notion that society makes kids feel bad by celebrating mothers and fathers. It is sad that some do not have them. However, if they insist that we stifle our celebrations they are indeed Nihilists. Frankly, though, it is not the fatherless or motherless who try to destroy cultural traditions, but rather is is some well-meaning social progressives willing to jettison the joy of the many in a misguided attempt to salve their wounded hearts.

Sorry - I thought I had made it clear, but I was responding to something bytor said. Perhaps I should lay off the multiquote button for a bit.

[Traveler]

Yes it does keep turning...more and more joyless. Can't do anything related to Christmas or Easter, because the few active Jews and Muslims might be offended. Cannot read Huck Finn, because some of the language might offend some. Baccaluareates are largely gone, because, though voluntary, some perceive them as state sanction of religion. Now, it's mothers and fathers day, 'cause some believe this generation is particular fragile, and will be damaged by the celebration of others.

I keep hearing that public schools don't have to do these things. There were ages past when they didn't. But, why must the tail get to wag the dog over and over again? And why are we made to feel like bullies for wanting to keep some of the fun and joy-filled traditions for today's kids that we enjoyed in our childhoods.

Maybe it's the social progressives who are the bullies--robbing our traditions one at a time, in the name of faceless victims who have raised no objections of their own.

I find it interesting that Jews might be offended??? A visit to the “Holy Land” where Jews have strong influence leaves even us strict Mormons suffering kosher shock.

The Traveler

[jerome1232]

Oh, my, heck.

Family Day encompasses Mother's Day AND Father's Day -- nothing is taken away. For anyone to think that "Family Day" is discarding the traditional Mother's/Father's Day is misinformed. It is celebrating ALL THE ABOVE, mummies and daddies included. It's an INCLUSIVE concept, not a linear one. Nothing is being taken away or discarded, just added to.

Aiya! I feel like spouting off my frustrations in Tagalog but Anatess would know what I'm saying...

When you add to something, what was there is often diluted afterward.

[prisonchaplain]

Oh, my, heck.

Family Day encompasses Mother's Day AND Father's Day -- nothing is taken away. For anyone to think that "Family Day" is discarding the traditional Mother's/Father's Day is misinformed. It is celebrating ALL THE ABOVE, mummies and daddies included. It's an INCLUSIVE concept, not a linear one. Nothing is being taken away or discarded, just added to.

I suppose the same could be said about "Winter holiday." It encompasses Christmas, Kwanzaa, Chanakkuh, solitice, etc., so it's just as good--even better than the Christmas Pageants of yesteryear...uh...NOT.

[Jenamarie]

Yes it does keep turning...more and more joyless. Can't do anything related to Christmas or Easter, because the few active Jews and Muslims might be offended. Cannot read Huck Finn, because some of the language might offend some. Baccaluareates are largely gone, because, though voluntary, some perceive them as state sanction of religion. Now, it's mothers and fathers day, 'cause some believe this generation is particular fragile, and will be damaged by the celebration of others.

I keep hearing that public schools don't have to do these things. There were ages past when they didn't. But, why must the tail get to wag the dog over and over again? And why are we made to feel like bullies for wanting to keep some of the fun and joy-filled traditions for today's kids that we enjoyed in our childhoods.

Maybe it's the social progressives who are the bullies--robbing our traditions one at a time, in the name of faceless victims who have raised no objections of their own.

Or perhaps, rather than being "bullies", the progressives are shocked, dismayed, and disappointed that those who at other times so loudly proclaim that the family is central are arguing so strongly *against* celebrating them.

Why is it "diluting" to ADD more to a celebration? Why is it wrong to want ALL students to be able to participate in a joyful celebration of the people they hold most dear? Why is it wrong to want ALL students at a PUBLIC institution to have at least a small part of their family's cultural traditions celebrated in the place where they spend most of the hours of their day? I LOVED learning about Kwanza and Hannaukuh (sp) in school. I LOVED learning about the special foods and traditions that surrounded them. My Christinanity was in no way diluted, rather I learned to love and appreciate others around me whose lives were slightly (or a lot) different than mine. I learned of our differences AND our similarities. I learned that I'm not an island. I learned that I could be missing out on something pretty awesome if I only found acceptable the things that fit into my own culture's mold.

Jesus said love everyone, even if they don't celebrate Christmas or come from a traditional household. I see taking their feelings into consideration in situations like these as showing them a small part of that love.

[Bini]

Jenamarie, I agree. I don't see how ADDING another group of people (that is growing in numbers) to an existing group of people is a negative. It's a narrow minded thought process to me and I tend to be open minded. Anyway, this brick wall has given me a migraine. I think it's another Agree To Disagree.

- teh Bini out!

[Windseeker]

My first wife had a difficult time with mothers day because not only was she given away from her birth mother but she had many painful memories of her adoptive mother who was very abusive. Even so, she recognized it was a celebration of mothers at their best and would never dream of killing a celebration of the ideal and preventing others a celebration of honor and gratitude for their mothers in order to be more comfortable with her lot.

It's not about having a Family Day it's about diluting and minimizing the roles of fathers and mothers. Why not have a seperate Family Day? Because the goal of Satan and his followers is to eliminate the sacred role of Father and Mother from society.

Elder L. Tom Perry

"As we take a long, hard look at the world today, it is becoming increasingly evident that Satan is working overtime to enslave the souls of men. His main target is the fundamental unit of society—the family.

During the past few decades, Satan has waged a vigorous campaign to belittle and demean this basic and most important of all organizations. His success is becoming increasingly evident—the grim facts are seen, reported, and heard about daily and involve the collapse of many family units. With the decay of the family, we see the terrible effects on our society—increased crime, behavior disorders, poverty, drug abuse, and the list continues to grow and grow.

It appears to me that the crosshairs of Satan’s scope are centered on husbands and fathers. Today’s media, for example, have been relentless in their attacks—ridiculing and demeaning husbands and fathers in their God-given roles.

...Satan, in his carefully devised plan to destroy the family, seeks to diminish the role of fathers."

Everybody has a Father and a Mother, some are worth celebrating and some are not. Honoring and celebrating good Fathers and Mothers is important for a healthy society. Replacing Fathers and Mothers day with a Family Day diminishes the importance of these specific roles in a healthy family.

[Windseeker]

Jenamarie, I agree. I don't see how ADDING another group of people (that is growing in numbers) to an existing group of people is a negative. It's a narrow minded thought process to me and I tend to be open minded. Anyway, this brick wall has given me a migraine. I think it's another Agree To Disagree.

- teh Bini out!

2 - 1 = 1 is not adding.

2 + 1 = 3 is adding.

fyi

edit.

Whats narrow minded is to destroy a celebration honoring the vital roles of fathers and mothers in famillies in order to accomidate a growing number that don't have fathers and mothers without considering how doing so diminishes the roles and encourages more families without a father and mother.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Windseeker

[estradling75]

Those of us who are LDS know what we believe the correct teaching about families are (See https://www.lds.org/topics/family-proclamation) therefore we should support the teaching of such to everyone.

Mother's Day and Father's Day teaches correct doctrine of families. That each child is entitled to a Mother and a Father that loves them an is worthy of being honored.

Now there are kids with out a Mother or a Father... They still need to be taught these fundamental principles, and if the teacher is even remotely on the ball the teacher then discusses that child's individual adaptation to a less then ideal condition. All this help reinforce the correct idea of what families are.

Now the people are saying that this is not an attack. That this new Family day is greater and better then either Mother's or Father's day... because it is more inclusive. I would agree if this Family day was in addition to Mother's and Father's day... Because then you would have three days instead of two. But that is not what they are doing. Maybe it's my public school education but going from 2 days of teaching correct principles about family down 1 day that waters down the fundamentals of what a family should be to 'whatever make you feel good about things'... Well I can't see that as being 'greater' in any form. In fact I can only see it as an attack on the family as God ordained it.

This is simply a natural result of the diminishing value of the role of Mother and Father in a child's life. It will encourage the further diminishing of such roles as the rising generation can't hold a value they were never taught.

[prisonchaplain]

I think it's another Agree To Disagree.

- teh Bini out!

Great...so we keep the status quo, right?

The right way to help the motherless and fatherless is to help them. Mothers Day and Fathers Day, ironically, remind us of this. Traditions do not have to be canceled or banned to help the unfortunate. In fact, they underline that there are those that need an extra hand, an extra hug, and maybe even an anonymous extra few bucks to help them out.

My sense is that "family day" so clouds the concept that we get a vague feel-good, and can go along our merry way, without offering extended love--after all, we "included" 'those folks'--so now we can ignore them.

[Traveler]

...

Now there are kids with out a Mother or a Father... They still need to be taught these fundamental principles, and if the teacher is even remotely on the ball the teacher then discusses that child's individual adaptation to a less then ideal condition. All this help reinforce the correct idea of what families are.

....

I do not agree that there are children that did not have both a mother and father. But I also do not think that is what you intended to say. There are many children that are denied the influences of a loving and concerned mother and loving and concerned father or someone else providing that role or understanding for them.

However, it would seem to me that many in our society have lost the concept of what a father and a mother can and should be and what influences a father and a mother ought to have - not just with children but society in general. The only reason that I can conclude that anyone would not respect and honor mothers and fathers and those that contribute for society these roles is because they do not have the understanding of such roles and their importance.

The Traveler

[Windseeker]

But those roles make people feel bad, so we shouldn't celebrate or honor them because that's what Jesus would want.