Divorce & Remarriage

[prisonchaplain]

I read another post about when of the General Authorities giving a "hard-hitting" talk on divorce. I listened to a couple of minutes, and caught the gist--yes, divorce is far too easy, and even members have taken a far to cavilier attitude towards it.

What confuses me is that those outside the LDS faith assume that divorce is quite low in your church, and that the attitudes towards it are very conservative. Likewise, in my church, divorce is only permitted in cases where a partner has been unfaithful, or has abandoned the spouse. Even when there has been cheating, divorce is merely permitted, not automatically recommended. For our spiritual leaders, even if the conditions permitting divorce are there, s/he is not allowed to remarry.

Perhaps the difficulty comes when doctrine meets reality--so many of our church families have experienced divorce. The only solution, imperfect as it is, is to love the sinner, and hate the sin.

[Fiannan]

It is an unfortunant psychological reality in the LDS Church that members tend to emphasize what they hear the most -- and think that if leaders tend not to talk about somethig it must not be important. I remember something I read back in the 1980s that I believe students (probably in a particular college institute) were interviewed about what was considered major sins. Not paying tithing came up more than murder -- although maybe the young people weren't thinking much about murder that day.

Point is, for years people in the Church (I believe) have just assumed that marriage is the ideal but leaders have rarely (very rarely) emphasized Christ's hard-hitting teachings on divorce (namely that it is wrong and if you leave your spouse for reasons other than unfaithfulness or abuse -- and remarry -- you are living in a state of adultery). So finally a general authority points this out and I believe it was needed. Maybe now taking a worldly approach on divorce will outrank getting your belly button pierced on members minds.

Of course, one can still get a temple recommend having abandoned spouse and/or children. However, my understanding is that in the afterlife God will be the final judge, not man (church leaders are not in a position to be the perfect judges of what conditions may have existed in a marriage so as long as a member communicates a certain level of worthiness then the burden will ultimately be on the member).

[prisonchaplain]

My sense is that men are more to blame for the failure of marriages than women. We have not been strong husbands, fathers, nor churchmen.

You are right about judgment. However, another frightening truth is, if God is angry about failed marriages, judgment will begin in his household, the church.

[shanstress70]

Forgive me for stating my strong opinion, but I think it's absolutely insane for a church to put restrictions on when someone should get divorced.

Yes, divorce is much too prevalent, but I think if churches want to help that, perhaps they should do premarital counseling to help guide couples as they embark in this total life changing event.

When you deny people a divorce, or shun someone bc of it, you are doing a huge disservice to them in some cases.

No one should have to endure a spouse who treats them badly, cheats on them, is not working or helpful around the house, is abusive to children (in any way), frequently absent by choice, drinks heavily or uses drugs, etc.

I'm all about making marriage last when it's good and mutually desired, but how dare anyone tell another couple they have to stay with a spouse they didn't sign up for!

[BenRaines]

I don't recall anyone saying that any form of abuse is ok and a requirement that you stay in an abusive marriage.

I believe that marriage is for eternity but have two daughters who married unwisely. Both were physically abused by husbands and have divorced them. Divorced for cause, not because their life goals changed or because they fell in love with someone else or because they fell out of love with their husbands.

Too often today we see divorce because of lost interest, finding a better offer, etc. Those reasons are wrong. Work it out.

Ben Raines

[shanstress70]

That is true, Ben. But who's to say, besides the ones in the marriage, whether or not the marriage is salvageable? I agree that people split up too easily. People shouldn't do that, yes. But it should be no one's place to tell them whether or not they can get a divorce... for whatever reason.

An example, it's best for me to not eat at McDonald's (or to take it further, it's best for me not to feed my KID McD's)... no one can dispute that. But no one has the right to tell me not to.

It's all part of that agency thing.

[the_jason]

Nowhere in Elder Oaks' talk did he say couples are forbidden to divorce. He said bishops do not counsel couples to get a divorce, but that doesn't mean they counsel couples to not get a divorce.

Elder Oaks also mentioned that in a few cases divorce is necessary due to neglect, abuse, infidelity, etc. For most couples, though, it's a matter of selfishness. He counseled couples to seek repentance first.

The Church does not say you can't be divorced, but it doesn't encourage it either. We strongly believe that marriage between a man and a woman is a sacred covenant with the Lord, the strongest covenant a person can make. Therefore, we wish to do all that we can to preserve that sanctity, not merely dismiss it on a whim.

[shanstress70]

I'm not specifically talking about the LDS church... acutally, more PC's church since they seem to be quite strict about it.

And let me reiterate that I think way too many divorces occur and I have firsthand knowledge about the effects it has on children involved... my parents were 5 when I was divorced. I got lucky and have a husband who treats me wonderfully, but many women aren't that lucky.

I just don't think it's anyone's business except those involved in the marriage.

[Fiannan]

You know, if someone wants to marry or divorce that is their business. However, it is the business of leaders in all religions to provide the doctrinal for what is right and what is wrong to members. So if someone is Christian they should consider what the Bible says about divorce.

[Maureen]

I just don't think it's anyone's business except those involved in the marriage.

Eventually it should be the business of any potential future marriage partners.

My friend recently married a man whose been divorced 3 times. To me that should be a red flag when considering marriage to a person whose tried 3 previous times and failed all. Usually means they didn't learn anything and just kept making the same mistakes. And I wouldn't be surprised if one of those mistakes was rushing into marriage in the first place.

M.

[MaidservantX]

I agree that there should be far more pre-marital teaching or counseling available and pro-active in the church.

[Dr T]

Work it out.

Good thoughts Ben. :) It does take work and time needs to be spent on that task.

[Guest MrsS]

<div class='quotemain'>

I just don't think it's anyone's business except those involved in the marriage.

Eventually it should be the business of any potential future marriage partners.

My friend recently married a man whose been divorced 3 times. To me that should be a red flag when considering marriage to a person whose tried 3 previous times and failed all. Usually means they didn't learn anything and just kept making the same mistakes. And I wouldn't be surprised if one of those mistakes was rushing into marriage in the first place. M.

It would be a red flag IF the three marriages failed for the same exact reasons. But if there were three different reasons or circumstances then you need to weigh them.

My husband was married and divorced three times before we met and married. Each divorce was for a different reason, and none of them caused me to see any "red flags".

I just don't think it's anyone's business except those involved in the marriage.

Yes Shan, and Maureen - I agree it is ultimately those who are involved in the marriage - 'um, let me claify this, I feel it is ONLY the husband and wife whose business it is.

My first husband was recently divorced too, and if I hadn't been 20 years young, naive, and full of lust - I would have gone and talked to his fist wife to find out her side of the divorce. Alas, I didn't do that until a few months before I left the jerk.

Divorce is not necessarily a Failed Marriage. I divorced because I was abused. I had come to a point where if I didn't get out, then I felt that I was commiting suicide by remaining in the marriage. I ended the marriage, I removed myself from a dangerous life. I did not fail at marriage.

[prisonchaplain]

Forgive me for stating my strong opinion, but I think it's absolutely insane for a church to put restrictions on when someone should get divorced.

Yes, divorce is much too prevalent, but I think if churches want to help that, perhaps they should do premarital counseling to help guide couples as they embark in this total life changing event.

When you deny people a divorce, or shun someone bc of it, you are doing a huge disservice to them in some cases.

But, what if the holy writings of your faith clearly prohibit divorces, except in very specific incidences? Further, what if your faith tradition commands strict observance of those writings, believing them to be directly from God?

I'm all for better and longer premarital counseling, formal and informal. However, churches also must carry out the difficult job of fulfilling the commands laid out for them as communities of faith.

No one should have to endure a spouse who treats them badly, cheats on them, is not working or helpful around the house, is abusive to children (in any way), frequently absent by choice, drinks heavily or uses drugs, etc.

Absolutely. Legal separation is a powerful tool in such cases. The guilty spouse will then either chose to reform, or will abandon his victimized partner, freeing him/her to divorce or remarry. Separation says the behavior will not stand, but leaves open the possiblity of mercy, forgiveness and rehabilitation.

I'm all about making marriage last when it's good and mutually desired, but how dare anyone tell another couple they have to stay with a spouse they didn't sign up for!

How dare a community of faith uphold the standards of its holy writings???

[a-train]

The problem with any abjuring langauge regarding divorce is that it can create a perceived social mantel of bane to come over the divorcee or her estranged. Especially because the status of divorce is so publicly known and often brought to notice through the last names of children, living arrangements, and other functions of divorced life. It may also impliment a false sense of social superiority in the mind of those who have not yet been unfortunate enough to endure the 'Big D'.

It is because of this that Church Leaders must be very carefull in the treatment of and in declaring the will of God on this subject. It must be understood as the Chaplain mentioned, we are to love all those involved in these broken families.

The numero uno duty we possess in this life is to "love God" (Matt 22:37) and in our marriage it is to love our spouses "even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it" (Eph 5:25).

Although it is a hard thing to say and an even harder thing to hear, it is true that when we love not our spouse, we love not ourselves nor the LORD.

-a-train

[Fiannan]

People need to communicate better than they do today. Do they share the same interests? Do they share the same sexual appetites? DO they both want the same number of children? What is their idea of divorce (one can spot this in conversations about society). Spirituality? Maybe that is what is important before a marriage takes place. But after the marriage takes place (and especially if children are in the picture) marriage should not end. And as much as I hate to use them as role models look at the Clintons -- if these two can keep their marriage together (despite both their flaws) then anyone can.

[shanstress70]

But, what if the holy writings of your faith clearly prohibit divorces, except in very specific incidences? Further, what if your faith tradition commands strict observance of those writings, believing them to be directly from God?

Simple answer... I wouldn't be a member of such a religion. :)

And let me reiterate that I'm not 'pro-divorce' by any means. I just think there are so many reasons why a marriage doesn't work out. And it doesn't matter how much one person is committed to making it work, it's a two-way street. One person whould not suffer bc the other is not committed.

My husband and I will not divorce... I'm confident of that. We have had our share of problems, but we are committed to each other. I happened to get a great one. I made sure of that before I married him.

However, if he were to change, I may have to eat my words. He knows that if he ever cheats on me or violently lays a hand on me, he will be out with no questions asked. THAT is a promise.

[rosie321]

Many very good things said already.

Marriage is supposed to be a union of man and women. The relationship is used as an analogy to the relationship between Christ and the church. It is a giving and sacrificial relationship. Both are to help people and grow in love together. It is the best relationship on earth to signify the oneness with God. In the LDS church the commitement is more serious as the marriage relationship is forever as is Christs love for the church.

Therefore, divorce by the church as a whole would not be encouraged. Nor should it be by any church believing in the sacredness of the commitment. Despite at times the possible need for it. There are allowable instances given in scriptures for it and ultimately judgement lies with the spouses and God as to whether it was justified or not. Whether due diligence was given or people were acting out of selfishness. But the leaders cannot say do whatever. They need to emphasize this holy relationship and not encourage its breakup. They have to reach the majority with their words and actions.

People really should consider who they are marrying beforehand and do all that is within their power to make it work. Not just look for the easy out. This doesn't seem to be happening. In our area there are more members that have been divorced at least once then have not and some who got into circumstances where they were never married at all. While we are not to stand in judgement because we don't know what has really caused this one cannot help but wonder why there are such high divorce numbers in the church. People need to stop and look why it is going on and what they can personally do to stop the divorce rates from climbing. Is this really what the church should be doing with the knowledge we have been given? Is this the example that should set before the world? Get married, get divorced. That eternal relationships and commitments can just be thrown aside? Its hard for me to believe that all of these divorces are really justifiable if people were to be honest with themselves.

This verse comes to mind -Mat 5:13-16 "You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men. 14 "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

Are we losing our saltiness when it comes to the sacredness of the marriage covenant?

[Fiannan]

I would ask, what does God condemn in the scriptures the most divorce or homosexuality?

Seems as if Christians in general focused more on strengthening marriage and family committments we would see less divorce -- and maybe less of the children from these divorces going into homosexuality.

If you are LDS and want your kids to go inactive -- get a divorce. If you are LDS and want your daughters to engage in sex at a younger age than the national norm then get a divorce. If you are LDS and want your kids to score less on national exams then get a divorce. If you are LDS and hope that your kids will have problems in committment and marriage later on then get a divorce. It doesn't work everytime but it sure improves the odds.

[BenRaines]

As stated earlier there are reasons for divorce but they are few. Abandonment and physical or emotional abuse. Other than that it should be worked out. Married for 32 years and still working it out. When we married we were told it was a three way partnership, the two of us and God. I think that too many leave God out of the equation.

I agree Finnian.

Ben Raines

[Canuck Mormon]

Abandonment and physical or emotional abuse. Other than that it should be worked out.

I disagree. In my case there was NO abuse or abandonment. She was gay. I tried to stick it out, but I couldn't be in a relationship where I knew I wasn't fulfilling her needs. She then wanted an "open" marriage and figured as long as we were together it wouldn't hurt our son. That's when I left.

I realize that this is not a common problem, but it is happening more frequently. Since my ordeal, I've 3-4 other marriages end the same way.

Just my 2 cents

Canuck Mormon

[BenRaines]

That sounds like emotional abuse to me Canuck Mormon. Sounds like infidelity to me also which is emotional abandonment.

Ben Raines

[Fiannan]

Abandonment and physical or emotional abuse. Other than that it should be worked out.

I disagree. In my case there was NO abuse or abandonment. She was gay. I tried to stick it out, but I couldn't be in a relationship where I knew I wasn't fulfilling her needs. She then wanted an "open" marriage and figured as long as we were together it wouldn't hurt our son. That's when I left.

I realize that this is not a common problem, but it is happening more frequently. Since my ordeal, I've 3-4 other marriages end the same way.

Just my 2 cents

Canuck Mormon

Sounds like she was not committed to you -- when you are married you must place the partner at the center of your universe. Gay? I don't know, I have met few women who, on a sexuality scale, would not qualify as bisexual yet in the past few ever actually made this an open behavior (the problem today as opposed to 20 years ago is that it has become trendy and it's generally the attractive and smart females experimenting with it).

[Canuck Mormon]

Since my ordeal, I've 3-4 other marriages end the same way.

It should read "Since my ordeal I've seen 3-4 other marriages end the same way"

Thanks for the responses.

As far as I know, she never cheated on me, but now that I look back on it, she did find excuses to stay away from the house at the end. So in a sense there was abandonment.

Thank you

Canuck Mormon

[prisonchaplain]

<div class='quotemain'>

But, what if the holy writings of your faith clearly prohibit divorces, except in very specific incidences? Further, what if your faith tradition commands strict observance of those writings, believing them to be directly from God?

Simple answer... I wouldn't be a member of such a religion. :)

And let me reiterate that I'm not 'pro-divorce' by any means. I just think there are so many reasons why a marriage doesn't work out. And it doesn't matter how much one person is committed to making it work, it's a two-way street. One person whould not suffer bc the other is not committed.

My husband and I will not divorce... I'm confident of that. We have had our share of problems, but we are committed to each other. I happened to get a great one. I made sure of that before I married him.

However, if he were to change, I may have to eat my words. He knows that if he ever cheats on me or violently lays a hand on me, he will be out with no questions asked. THAT is a promise.

I'm not sure why you seem to agree with the principles of what my religion says (and LDS on this issue), but find the church at fault if it preaches what it believes? Perhaps clarification is in order. Our leaders do NOT look for divorcees to kick out of the church. We do not tell people what they can and cannot do, on a individual basis. We offer counsel when its sought, and we teach our principles during sermons and lessons. The divorce and remarriage scenario I mentioned that was so strict is limited to ordained clergy only. Even then, should a minister choose to resign his/her ordination, there would be nothing to keep him/her from continuing on as a member in good standing. I know of one case personally, in which the youth pastor's wife left him for a doctor (left the faith too). He was in his mid-20s when it happened. He gave up his ordination, became a high school teacher, and remains faithful to the church to this day.

So, our standards are high, but there is no Orwellian enforcement, and mercy, grace, understanding and love are in abundance.

Edited February 25, 2009 by prisonchaplain
reformat quotes