Why we are leaving the LDS

[pam]

Wow Mike that gave me chills. In a good way though. :) What a great story. Coincidence? I tend to think not.

[SoaringEagle]

That is an great experience and encounter with the missionaries. I am newer to the church as well (Baptism date over 1 year ago) and had some difficulties adjusting after baptism. Many people gave you some great advice and I wanted to just relay my experience. After baptism, I was assigned a home teacher and a visiting teacher. My home teacher (who is the Ward Mission Leader) saw me twice and then stopped seeing me entirely. He was also the Gospel Principles teacher so I saw him every Sunday. My first visiting teacher I never knew who it was and then never saw her once someone told me who it was. I finished the new member lessons but continued meeting with the missionaries and also a senior missionary couple. I kept meeting with both because I requested it and continued setting up meetings. I felt almost abandoned by my teachers though (which I have abandonment issues from my childhood). I was thinking of leaving the church because the adversary was working extra strong and was doing a good job. I found pages on the internet with things I did not like and people complaining about the church. There was never anything truly hidden, just somehow ended up on Ex-Mo sites. It is not hard to do. I can go from Mormon Channel videos to "How my family left the church". What did I end up doing? I met with my Bishop. He had my home teacher changed and spoke with the relief society president and my visiting teacher was changed as well. I also became more pro-active and sought people out to connect with. I encourage you to do the same. Volunteer to feed the missionaries or help them with their visits. There is nothing wrong with recent converts spending more time fellowshipping with the missionaries and asking for more additional lessons. It truly helped with my growth in the church.

[Lakumi]

I don't like the sound of home teacher (or visiting teacher...) they come to my home...

I am not a person who enjoys company, nor does my family.

I assume the church would understand that, since I would be the only LDS in my family

[SoaringEagle]

I believe you can make it known to your home teacher that you don't want to be contacted at home. They can call, text, email you instead. Your Home Teacher is a priesthood holder in your ward that gives a lesson each month and checks on your spiritual and temporal needs. I have a visiting teacher as well because I am a woman. Women get both a home teacher and a visiting teacher.

I am the only LDS in my family and they won't necessarily assume you don't want them to show up. You would just make it be known once someone is assigned after your baptism. Most of the time your Home Teacher will call you or set up an appointment at church before driving over.

[Finrock]

Home teaching is just a tool to allow us to fulfill our baptismal covenants. It is easy to look at it as some program, but it is not. A home teacher is loving your neighbor as yourself. It is bearing one anothers burdens. It is a chance to show your love for God. My home teacher saved me from falling away because he came consistently and was sincere. We knew that he truly cared for us. His example helped me to be motivated and to be better. The secret ingredient truly is love and we can pray for it to have it and with consistent visits we can develope true relationships with our brothers and sisters.

Just think of the good that you can do with a little effort. God has taken my small acts and made them great. Yet i still struggle with this principle so I also understand the frustrations.

Regards,

Finrock

[MormonMama]

Thank you for relying.

The information about the shopping mall came from LDS.org

I did find info on LDS.org about the shopping mall, but you must have misread it because here is a direct quote from President Gordon B. Hinckley on the matter:

"But I wish to give the entire Church the assurance that tithing funds have not and will not be used to acquire this property. Nor will they be used in developing it for commercial purposes."

Here is the link to the article. The quote is about halfway down the page: The Condition of the Church - general-conference

[pam]

I don't like the sound of home teacher (or visiting teacher...) they come to my home...

I am not a person who enjoys company, nor does my family.

I assume the church would understand that, since I would be the only LDS in my family

But then again this thread isn't about you. It's about Mike and his concerns.

[Churchmouse]

Years ago I read the account of a woman that was taken captive by the Mormons and held at Temple Square in the 1800's. She said she escaped by climbing the wall and jumping into Salt Lake and swimming to safety. That's a pretty good jump, considering Salt Lake is several miles from Temple Square. You can find about anything on the internet.

You won't find the truthfullness of the Church on the internet of in priesthood meeting. You find it on your knees.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Churchmouse

[Lakumi]

But then again this thread isn't about you. It's about Mike and his concerns.

true...true

[Misshalfway]

Hi Mikedavis! I really appreciate your post. It is a good reminder to all of us long timers in the church. I don't think we members always realize what it's like to be new. We take our experience for granted and forget how foreign and confusing it can be to transition into the church.

I'm sorry that your first year has been difficult and frustrating. I hope that you'll let God do what He does best...and that is to turn everything for our good. Perhaps in some way this trial will turn out to be a blessing.

Whatever it is, it sure seems like your needs are known and that God is working for you. I sure hope you can keep your eye fixed upon Father and His will for your life. It's hard to do with so much humanness everywhere. But if you can figure it out, it sure is helpful.

Blessings to you and may your home teachers get a clue! LOL

[Mikedavis]

You won't find the truthfullness of the Church on the internet of in priesthood meeting. You find it on your knees.

Your right. I was putting far to much weight on information I was receiving over the Internet and in priesthood meetings. As such, I was trying reconcile borrowed Masonic ceremonies, history as we know it and the opinions of "men" with the teachings of God and Jesus. If anyone wants to learn the true word of God the best place to start is by asking God.

As for our church, do I belive it is true? Yes with all my heart, but I also belive that like most religions fact and fiction have become intertwined. But you know what? Perhaps that has more to do with our interruption of the message rather than the actual message itself?

[EarlJibbs]

What a good discussion. Thanks for the post Mike.

I think that all of us need to remember that not every member is a scholar. We are all learning about Christ's work. If I were asked, I couldnt guaranty a full, complete answer on a lot of subjects, but we must also remember that if we do not know, we shouldnt make it worse by misquoting or making things up (so we do not look bad) because it only makes things worse. I am known for simply saying "I don't know, we should find out". I am sorry that is not what happened in your case.

Good luck. Remember, members are regular people trying to do right by God, and unfortunately for us, we are all still infants making pleanty of mistakes along the way.

[Mikedavis]

What a good discussion. Thanks for the post Mike.

I think that all of us need to remember that not every member is a scholar. We are all learning about Christ's work. If I were asked, I couldnt guaranty a full, complete answer on a lot of subjects, but we must also remember that if we do not know, we shouldnt make it worse by misquoting or making things up (so we do not look bad) because it only makes things worse. I am known for simply saying "I don't know, we should find out". I am sorry that is not what happened in your case.

Good luck. Remember, members are regular people trying to do right by God, and unfortunately for us, we are all still infants making pleanty of mistakes along the way.

I totally agree. In the church I was told "if you have a question ask the missionary's". The problem was often the missionary's would not know. Worse yet, they would often come back with information that simply was not true. For example, when I asked about Joseph Smith having more than one wife they said "that's a lie" when historical evidence shows otherwise" When I asked about what happened at Mountain Meadows? They said they did not know anything about such an event. I asked about the Masonic temple ceremony's practiced in the temple and they said no such ceremony's take place and that Joseph Smith was never infact in the Freemasons. The list goes on and on. I think in part the problem is until recently members had now way of knowing if what they were being told was true or false. Now with the advent of the Internet people are starting to research things themselves but ONLY because the church still refuses to come clean. Perhaps that's why the biggest growth areas for our church are in parts of the world where information and technology are less available then here in the west? All this is sad because by not being open and honest with its own members people are leaving feeling (wrongly) that they have been lied to when in fact they have simply been misinformed or perhaps in most cases not informed at all.

[NeuroTypical]

Now with the advent of the Internet people are starting to research things themselves but ONLY because the church still refuses to come clean.

You pretty much had me up to there. Looks like you're accusing people in the church of being willfully decietful.

I get that kid missionaries can have odd ideas and be ignorant of church history. That's different than knowing the truth and refusing to share it.

You want to try rephrasing that? If not, you want to try substantiating it? Who in the church is keeping people from knowing the truth, and exactly how do you think they go about doing it?

[Leah]

I totally agree. In the church I was told "if you have a question ask the missionary's". The problem was often the missionary's would not know. Worse yet, they would often come back with information that simply was not true. For example, when I asked about Joseph Smith having more than one wife they said "that's a lie" when historical evidence shows otherwise" When I asked about what happened at Mountain Meadows? They said they did not know anything about such an event. I asked about the Masonic temple ceremony's practiced in the temple and they said no such ceremony's take place and that Joseph Smith was never infact in the Freemasons. The list goes on and on. I think in part the problem is until recently members had now way of knowing if what they were being told was true or false. Now with the advent of the Internet people are starting to research things themselves but ONLY because the church still refuses to come clean. Perhaps that's why the biggest growth areas for our church are in parts of the world where information and technology are less available then here in the west? All this is sad because by not being open and honest with its own members people are leaving feeling (wrongly) that they have been lied to when in fact they have simply been misinformed or perhaps in most cases not informed at all.

You're saying the church is being deceitful and hiding it's history? Care to back that up with something substantiated?

[EarlJibbs]

I totally agree. In the church I was told "if you have a question ask the missionary's". The problem was often the missionary's would not know. Worse yet, they would often come back with information that simply was not true. For example, when I asked about Joseph Smith having more than one wife they said "that's a lie" when historical evidence shows otherwise" When I asked about what happened at Mountain Meadows? They said they did not know anything about such an event. I asked about the Masonic temple ceremony's practiced in the temple and they said no such ceremony's take place and that Joseph Smith was never infact in the Freemasons. The list goes on and on. I think in part the problem is until recently members had now way of knowing if what they were being told was true or false. Now with the advent of the Internet people are starting to research things themselves but ONLY because the church still refuses to come clean. Perhaps that's why the biggest growth areas for our church are in parts of the world where information and technology are less available then here in the west? All this is sad because by not being open and honest with its own members people are leaving feeling (wrongly) that they have been lied to when in fact they have simply been misinformed or perhaps in most cases not informed at all.

I do not feel misled by anyone. Especially by the church as a whole. I am not sure who in the church to ask about free masons, but I definitely wouldnt think missionaries are very well read up on the subject. Even on the subject of Mountain Meadows, that will not be widely known. The Church's mission is to convert through Christ, his teachings and Gospel saving ordinances, not to focus on trying to convert through historical events in the church that have no relevance in Baptism and eternal principles.

It seems that you have your mind made up that the church needs to come clean about a whole lot of dirty laundry that may not have anything to do with the truthfulness of it's teachings. If you look for things to be concerned about the list will never end. Not necessarily because there isnt a good answer, but because the adversary will make your list grow longer and longer. That is not to say however that there have never been atrocities that have happened at the hands of members. But that goes for any membership of any group.

[Mikedavis]

Well for example when church missionaries say that Joseph Smith only had one wife. Or that he was not a member of the Free Mansions or that certain temple ceremony's are not in any way based on Masonic ceremony's. I'm NOT saying that this misinformation is deliberate I'm simply saying it would "appear" to be untrue. Is this not the case?

[Mikedavis]

You're saying the church is being deceitful and hiding it's history? Care to back that up with something substantiated?

Well for example when church "missionaries" say that Joseph Smith only had one wife. Or that he was not a member of the Free Mansions or that certain temple ceremony's are not based on Masonic ceremony's. I'm NOT saying that this misinformation is deliberate simply that it would appear to be untrue. Is this is not the case please tell me why?

Look at the end of the day I have no problem with our church which I know to be true. My concerns are with some of the information put out by those claiming to speak for it.

As of right now I'm simply trying to find answers. The reason I ask them here is because I can't ask them in my ward.

[Just_A_Guy]

Mike, ya gotta admit, it would be kinda funky for a Catholic evangelist to say "hey, let me tell you about indulgences, the Reformation, the Inquisition, the ecclesiastical discipline of Galileo, collaboration with fascist dictators, and pedophile priests; and if you're still around next week we'll start talking about Jesus and charities and schools and standing up to communism and Mother Theresa".

Could we do better at balancing? Yes. And we're improving--look at history.lds.org, particularly the Revelations in Context series. Look at the website for the Joseph Smith Papers project.

But frankly--no matter how much we try to "innoculate" our members against the less-savory aspects of our history; there's always going to be something we don't get around to and the result will be howls of a "cover-up".

Edited August 23, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[Mikedavis]

Mike, ya gotta admit, it would be kinda funky for a Catholic evangelist to say "hey, let me tell you about indulgences, the Reformation, the Inquisition, the ecclesiastical discipline of Galileo, collaboration with fascist dictators, and pedophile priests; and if you're still around next week we'll start talking about Jesus and charities and schools and standing up to communism and Mother Theresa".

Could we do better at balancing? Yes. But frankly--no matter how much we try to "innoculate" our members against the less-savory aspects of our history; there's always going to be something we don't get around to and our critics will thus accuse us of a cover-up.

Thank you!

That's all I needed to know. What you say makes perfect sence.

Let's drop this entire thread. You know ever since I joined the church I have had nothing but obstacles placed in the way of my faith. First it was a lack of home visits, then it was coming across a bunch of subplots that even if true have nothing to do with the big story.

[TalkativeIntrovert]

I can't find the link or source, and am using my own memory, but I thought I had read about the massacre and plural issues in the ensign. So it was not covered up.

I hope you can find what you are looking for Mikedavis.

I am not sure if this is allowed or not, but there is a site called "staylds" it is for people that are wanting to stay with the church, despite not agreeing with certain parts of it. There are some good discussions there on some of the things you mention and people use references scripture, ensign, historical. It is not an anti-Mormon site.

[Mikedavis]

I am not sure if this is allowed or not, but there is a site called "staylds" it is for people that are wanting to stay with the church, despite not agreeing with certain parts of it. There are some good discussions there on some of the things you mention and people use references scripture, ensign, historical. It is not an anti-Mormon site.

Thanks

I also came across one called FAIRlds.org :)

Tom

[Leah]

Well for example when church "missionaries" say that Joseph Smith only had one wife. Or that he was not a member of the Free Mansions or that certain temple ceremony's are not based on Masonic ceremony's. I'm NOT saying that this misinformation is deliberate simply that it would appear to be untrue. Is this is not the case please tell me why?

Look at the end of the day I have no problem with our church which I know to be true. My concerns are with some of the information put out by those claiming to speak for it.

As of right now I'm simply trying to find answers. The reason I ask them here is because I can't ask them in my ward.

Again, how is church concealing anything? You haven't substantiated your claims, only provided anecdotes that may or may not be based in reality. And how does a random church member not having knowledge of something or having misinformation about something translate into the church being deceitful?

You claim you didn't know certain things about the church. That wasn't because anyone withheld anything from you, you simply hadn't learned certain things. How does someone else having the same experience you did, make the church deceitful?

When doing something as life-changing as joining the church, you have the obligation to know what you are getting into. All of this information was readily avialable to you, even if member x or member Y didn't personally know the answer to some of your questions. Or had been misinformed themselves. I was baptized in 2001. I knew all of these things about the church...and more. The good, the bad, and the ugly. It was not being hidden in any way, least of all by some church conspiracy.

[dahlia]

When I asked about what happened at Mountain Meadows? They said they did not know anything about such an event. I asked about the Masonic temple ceremony's practiced in the temple and they said no such ceremony's take place and that Joseph Smith was never infact in the Freemasons. The list goes on and on. I think in part the problem is until recently members had now way of knowing if what they were being told was true or false. Now with the advent of the Internet people are starting to research things themselves but ONLY because the church still refuses to come clean.

I don't know about the Church 'refusing to come clean.' I did a quick search on LDS.org and found 3 references to Mountain Meadows. I don't think the Church is hiding anything now.

I made a point of reading about Free Mason rituals and it is obvious that some of the rituals and markings come from Free Masonry. So what? I feel that Smith and others took what they knew and what was meaningful to them, and then gave these familiar rituals and signs new meanings to be used in the Church. OK by me. There is very little that's new under the sun. Now, if one hates Free Masons or think they are out to rule the world or whatever, that's a personal problem.

It is unfortunate that some church members get turned around when they find out the truth (not talking about you, OP) or that people felt so insecure in the faith that they felt they couldn't tell what they knew about these and other incidents. It's true that the missionaries' knowledge only goes so far, but that's true for a lot of members as well. You're right about info being on the internet - if you feel you need to learn more, than go to the right sources and learn more. That said, remember that everyone involved was an imperfect human, bound by the norms of his/her time.

I remember learning that Smith wanted to run for the US Presidency. I didn't doubt the Church, but I thought this was a bit strange, like he was power hungry - first the Church, then the country. THEN I READ about how Mormons were treated, killed, run from one settlement to the next. Smith's actions then become understandable. If your own government won't protect you and your right to practice your religion, maybe you should get involved and get in the government yourself. Change from within, so to speak. So what seemed 'crazy Mormon' to me at first, was actually not so crazy at all.

Same thing for the bank failure. How many banks have failed in the past few years alone, much less over 160+ years? Again, no biggie to me, just an indications of the struggles of the early Church.

Try to get more active in your ward, OP. Speak up. I ask questions in Sunday School all of the time. Go to leisure activities at the ward. Read the uplifting Conference talks and leave the anti stuff alone. There is a lot of Mormon Tabernacle Choir music on YouTube; have a listen for free. I'm a convert as well. I have some idea what you are going through, but if you want to make it better, you may have to put in some more of your own effort.

[bytebear]

Well for example when church "missionaries" say that Joseph Smith only had one wife. Or that he was not a member of the Free Mansions or that certain temple ceremony's are not based on Masonic ceremony's. I'm NOT saying that this misinformation is deliberate simply that it would appear to be untrue. Is this is not the case please tell me why?

Look at the end of the day I have no problem with our church which I know to be true. My concerns are with some of the information put out by those claiming to speak for it.

As of right now I'm simply trying to find answers. The reason I ask them here is because I can't ask them in my ward.

It's kind of interesting. We don't emphasize polygamy because we are no longer bound by that doctrine. Similarly we don't emphasize animal sacrifices or circumcision, even though they are also technically beliefs we no longer adhere to. we may discuss it in a Sunday School class once in a while, and certainly a tour of the Beehive House in Salt Lake will likely touch on the subject of Brigham Young's wives, but how does it help with our struggles in life today? How does it relate to our gospel lives. In short, it doesn't much.

As for the temple and Masonic symbolism, because we don't talk about the temple, its a bit difficult to address, but I don't think anyone denies the many symbols of the temple, some of which are similar to those used in Freemasonry. But focusing on this as a deep secret only detracts from the many symbols used that are used in worship. Taken as a whole, Mormonism is full of symbols, mostly adopted for illustration and not for specific worship or doctrinal purposes. To illustrate, the Salt Lake Temple is one of the most symbolic structures in the church. it has sunstones, moon stones, star stones, big dipper, three towers on either end representing the two priesthoods, and it has the eye of providence and the handclasp of friendship, both used in Freemasonry as well as US Currency (look at a $1 bill). There are plenty of LDS published books on temple symbolism, and you should be preparing to attend the temple yourself, but you need to get through the basics first.

Mormons use all sorts of symbols, some are given from God, some are adopted from other sources. We don't see anything particular holy about beehives, and yet it's probably the most prominent symbol in the church, even used on the doors of the Salt Lake Temple. Does that mean we are hiding our "worship of bees?" Does it mean we are hiding these things? No, but it's not something so important that you need it to follow Christ.

Remember this. Every single "scandal" or "secret" you hear from the internet was found from church documents, recorded, preserved, and published by the church. Every single one.

Edited August 24, 2013 by bytebear