Fast Food Strike

[Dravin]

Compared to where I was last (Phoenix)

Restaurant makes $2.90

Tipped employees are guaranteed federal minimum wage, if their tips are insufficient to ensure federal minimum wage employers are legally obligated to make up the shortfall. If a tipped employee is only taking home $2.90/hour their employer is in violation of federal law. Arizona's minimum wage laws have the same requirement with respect to their minimum wage of $7.80/hour. Additionally, Arizona requires that tipped employees can only be paid a maximum of $3 less than minimum wage, or $4.80/hour.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Dravin

[Backroads]

school shouldn't cost money, knowledge should be free

I mean, you aren't actually paying for learning you are paying for a piece of paper, I can learn anything collage teaches me on my own.

Its free in so, so many other countries. But then again, a smarter population doesn't go along with the status quo as much as a dumber one.

School is never free. When I taught elementary school, tax dollars were paying me. You can't expect me to believe those professors are all volunteering their time?

[Wingnut]

I mean, you aren't actually paying for learning you are paying for a piece of paper, I can learn anything collage teaches me on my own.

But what to magazine clippings glued to a posterboard have to do with anything?

[Lakumi]

School is never free. When I taught elementary school, tax dollars were paying me. You can't expect me to believe those professors are all volunteering their time?

you know what I mean

In many countries, Europe for instance, University doesn't cost money to go to, like it does in the US

I assume taxes are higher, then in the US since, well you feel like paying for everything down there

taxes are higher here, since we have universal health care

[Lakumi]

But what to magazine clippings glued to a posterboard have to do with anything?

I was talking about a diploma, which is a piece of paper.

I seriously don't understand what is all of your deal, but every time I come in here, constant insults.

I haven't quite gotten to the being called names, though I am sure it will happen...always does.

[NightSG]

I assume taxes are higher, then in the US since, well you feel like paying for everything down there

Everything has to be paid for. The difference is that we believe those benefiting from a thing should be the ones paying for it.

[Lakumi]

Everything has to be paid for. The difference is that we believe those benefiting from a thing should be the ones paying for it.

yeah the US is big on that, don't see eye to eye with that country or its people... so I could never live there

simple solution really.

but that's a broader picture I won't go into

[NightSG]

The smarter thing to do would be to peg minimum wage to inflation and have the wage adjust every 5 or 10 years.

The even smarter thing to do when you can't make ends meet in a high COL area is move.

If NYC can't get anyone to flip burgers for minimum wage, either the market will fix the problem or New Yorkers will have to go elsewhere for burgers.

[Leah]

yeah the US is big on that, don't see eye to eye with that country or its people... so I could never live there

simple solution really.

but that's a broader picture I won't go into

So, those who benefit from something shouldn't have to bear any expense? Who should pay for it then?

[Guest]

They may think they're stuck. They're not a tree. They can improve their skills, take stock of their transferrable skills and look for other opportunities. Yes, they may have to move for those opportunities... but they are out there.

Welcome to the brave new world of instant gratification brought to you as a result of the invention of the.... Oh, I don't know... The television?

[Guest]

My dad passed away a few months ago. One of the important lessons in life I learned from him is this:

What is a job worth? In a free country, it is only worth the amount of money that someone is willing to take it for. It has nothing to do with profit or loss or how much the boss makes or how much qualifications one has. Anybody wanting more pay for the same job because of how much profit the owner is making or how much money the boss is making is applying worth to a job by envy. Anyone wanting more pay for the same job because he has all these qualifications is applying worth to a job by pride. If somebody accepts and accomplishes the job satisfactorily for $1.00 per hour, then that job is only worth $1.00 per hour. So, my dear daughter (ha ha... there's no way in blazes he'll ever call me that), make it so that all throughout your life, you have a skill that many businesses need but not many people have.

Now, my dad is in politics. This food for thought was handed to me during the height of a political campaign where my uncle promised better pay in a campaign speech. My dad believed that a politician can increase the worth of a job, not by demanding minimum wage increases but by working with private industry to attract more and more of them into our city so that people will have the opportunity to say no to one job to take another. Also, politicians can apply the rule of law to stamp out wage fixers that contrive to dampen wages by choking out competition.

Right now, the US is going completely against these principles. Employment rate is low. But instead of attracting more businesses they're doing almost anything in their power to make it harder to attract businesses. And you wonder why the slight increases reported in employment rate are going to low wage burger-flipper type jobs... So what do people demand? Increase burger flipper wages... That is hilarious. You only want to increase burger flipping wages if you plan to stay there forever. So you might say, we actually want increased minimum pay. Uhm, with unemployment rate this high? That is simply saying, I just want to sip my hot cocoa and hope the sky opens with shiny new jobs from magical businesses whose purpose of existence is nothing else but give people jobs with high wages. Good luck with that.

Now, there's this form of government where the government decides how much a job is worth... Like in North Korea. And no, Chinese and Vietnamese and even Russian governments don't dictate how much a job is worth in most cases.

Edited August 31, 2013 by anatess

[Soulsearcher]

In Canada its the same anywhere you go

I can understand why they want to raise it, I mean here for example there are no jobs besides fast food, the industries went away and this city is a piece of crap that one day will implode in on itself as it is trying to attract retirees and all the young people move away due to lack of jobs.

It will get to a point where nothing in the city can run and it will shrink to a small town size.

Here, at least, no one who works at fast food is a teenager, or even a young adult.

Its a sad realization that in many places, these sorts of businesses are the only work to be had for anyone, as the general population gets poorer (and dumber)

Just a reminder the provinces set minimum wage in canada, so it's not the same in every province. At the moment it's pretty close for all of them but that does change from time to time. Alberta is just starting to do some catch up, we've had 3 hikes in the last few years to get us closer to the average for the country.

[NeuroTypical]

In many countries, Europe for instance, University doesn't cost money to go to, like it does in the US

I assume taxes are higher, then in the US since, well you feel like paying for everything down there

It's true, there is no "here's your bill to go to university, we take cheque or cash", but as you mention in your post, taxes pay for it. So yes indeed, it does cost money to go to European university, just other people's money.

It's a little more than semantics here. It does indeed cost money to go to university in Europe. It is a falsehood, a deception, to believe it dotsn't. Believing such, is a way of lying to ourselves. We can't hold that thought, without setting ourselves apart from reality.

When someone can internalize that yes, stuff costs, and that's an unalterable law of how human economic works, only then can someone think relevant thoughts about the best way to go about paying for things.

[Lakumi]

It's true, there is no "here's your bill to go to university, we take cheque or cash", but as you mention in your post, taxes pay for it. So yes indeed, it does cost money to go to European university, just other people's money.

It's a little more than semantics here. It does indeed cost money to go to university in Europe. It is a falsehood, a deception, to believe it dotsn't. Believing such, is a way of lying to ourselves. We can't hold that thought, without setting ourselves apart from reality.

When someone can internalize that yes, stuff costs, and that's an unalterable law of how human economic works, only then can someone think relevant thoughts about the best way to go about paying for things.

I'd much rather pay a bit higher taxes then be in debt thousands of dollars like all my friends are

[Backroads]

I'd much rather pay a bit higher taxes then be in debt thousands of dollars like all my friends are

And that's fine. I get that view. I do see the appeal of socialized education and that stuff--it just isn't for me and my world view and philosophy. I don't think anyone here is criticizing you personally for that view (we like to debate the political mind of it here on the lds.net), people are just trying to make it clear that "free" education/healthcare/etc. isn't magically free.

[Backroads]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakumi

I mean, you aren't actually paying for learning you are paying for a piece of paper, I can learn anything collage teaches me on my own.

But what to magazine clippings glued to a posterboard have to do with anything?

__________________

I was talking about a diploma, which is a piece of paper.

I seriously don't understand what is all of your deal, but every time I come in here, constant insults.

I haven't quite gotten to the being called names, though I am sure it will happen...always does.

Relax. She was just teasing you over a typo. College: a facility of higher learning. Collage:art formed by a collection of paper or other items.

[Wingnut]

Relax. She was just teasing you over a typo. College: a facility of higher learning. Collage:art formed by a collection of paper or other items.

It was a little bit of a tease, but a little bit more of making a point as well: he says he can't learn anything from college, but perhaps he might be able to at least learn to spell it. It was an amusing note of self-contradiction that I picked up and felt like pointing out, within the context of the conversation.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Wingnut

[Lakumi]

I don't see how a simple typo is a self contradiction, but whatever everytime you speak to me its some form of insult

[Gretchen]

Here's some fun:

Where my sister lives (Seattle, where I'm visiting! And it's sunny today!)

CNAs make $9 per hour

Fast Food makes $8.50

Poverty line for family of 3 is 40k (food stamps, full aid)

STUDENT housing is $1600 per month BEFORE utilities and parking

Cops & Firefighters make 85k*

Compared to where I was last (Phoenix)

Restaurant makes $2.90

(No idea about CNAs)

Student housing is $500 w/ utilities paid

Cops make 45k

So.... 2 major cities...

Cops make double (or half)

Restaurant makes 3x (or 1/3)

Housing is 4x as expensive

Whoops.... Got started on the med stuff... Got sucked into the price of milk.

Ahem. What my sister pays in UTILITIES paid my rent in Phoenix last month.

Add them both together and they won't even scrape 1 month rent in DC (where I am next month).

In general, I just look up Police & Fire salaries , and student housing, before I travel somewhere. That gives me a working idea as to middle class cost of living.

Q

I live in Phoenix. Here, you'd get minimum wage in most fast food places ($7.80 an hour). Also, student housing depends on the college. And apartment rentals depend on the area. I currently pay about $300 a month on rent. Roommate pays the other half. (incase anyone is wondering, yes, I do work fast food. Atleast until I can go back to school)

[Quin]

Thanks for the FF versus Tipped comparison!

S'one of those things about living on the road... I know generalities (like what it costs me and those around me) but the details often miss. It makes more sense, though, now why my neighbors (as if 2.90 isn't enough to gripe about) were griping so much: the otherwise-known-as-fastfood place they worked accepted tips. Shady. Truism anywhere: restaurant is a cutthroat business that will grind ya up and spit yah out. I served in some states where the owners NEVER fired anyone. They just didn't give them hours. Meant no unemployment costs amongst other things.

Course, there are always other examples of really kind businesses. The hamburger joint I worked in not only paid a living wage, but paid $2000 per year in tuition (not reimbursement, would cut a check to the school, so they got people started who couldn't save up tuition) after working for a year. Plus some of the best benefits around (granted, hiring mostly college students decreases healthcare costs). 75yo mom&pop business. Wi wicked motivated staff & pick of applicants.

[MarginOfError]

I think it's interesting that people are complaining about the concept of minimum wage providing a living wage when the "living wage" we're talking about is the poverty line. Heaven forbid that we allow the least educated and least skilled members of society have a job that gives them a chance of escaping poverty while they, hopefully, are able to prepare themselves for a chance at better job prospects.

It goes from interesting to baffling when I notice that the people I most often hear complain about minimum wage increases are typically the people that complain that welfare is too cushy and discourages people from looking for work.

My ideal system would be one where minimum wage is pegged to the poverty line (Somewhere more than 85% but less than 105% of poverty) and the maximum allowable for welfare benefits to be 75% of the difference between one's annual earnings and the poverty line (guaranteeing that welfare never pays better than a job).

But I think it's insane to think that we are better off allowing people to live in poverty when poverty is the biggest indicator of propensity for crime, giving up on education, drug use, teen pregnancy, etc. Does it slow the economic growth and benefit for higher income earners? Yes. But it's a social benefit for everyone that I believe ought to be a compelling interest.

[Backroads]

I think it's interesting that people are complaining about the concept of minimum wage providing a living wage when the "living wage" we're talking about is the poverty line. Heaven forbid that we allow the least educated and least skilled members of society have a job that gives them a chance of escaping poverty while they, hopefully, are able to prepare themselves for a chance at better job prospects.

This is a great point, but in the particular situation at hand many if not most fast food workers are part-time workers. It would take a significant increase of minimum wage to make part-time pay "livable". These employees still might not be getting 32-40 hours a week and will still be beneath th poverty line.

[Just_A_Guy]

Interesting idea, MOE. Some questions come to mind:

1). As an employer, do I also have to pay that minimum wage amount (whatever it is) to a teenager whose parents clear $100k or more per year?

2). The poverty line increases as household size increases. In a system like you describe, how do you keep employers from discriminating against people with lots of kids in favor of people with few kids or, ideally, people living alone? And in this post-DOMA era, how do you keep two roommates (or more) from gaming the system on their end by calling themselves a "household" for purposes of computing their minimum wage?

3) By my calculation, under current poverty guidelines, assuming a 100% minimum wage, a person living alone would be entitled to just $5.37/hour and a person living with one other person would be entitled to $7.27 per hour. I think current federal minimum wage is $7.25. Does your proposal really make much of a practical difference?

4). Do you count Medicaid in your computation of welfare benefits? Because the cash value of those alone could easily be several thousand dollars per annum.

This is a really intriguing idea, but I'd like to see how these implications could be sorted out.

As for this:

But I think it's insane to think that we are better off allowing people to live in poverty when poverty is the biggest indicator of propensity for crime, giving up on education, drug use, teen pregnancy, etc.

I agree that correlation in this case does indicate causation; but I think you've got the causation exactly backwards. The lack of self discipline that gets people sent to jail, flunking school, doped up, and knocked up, will also tend to keep people in poverty. Aren't there studies out there about the huge percentage of people who win obscene amounts of money in the lottery, and ten years later they're right back in the slums?

As long as certain communities scorn those who obey the law, work hard in school, and abstain from drugs and sex, as "putting on airs" or "acting white" or "Oreos" or whatever--you won't end poverty; and it doesn't matter how much money you throw at the problem in the meantime.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[MarginOfError]

Interesting idea, MOE. Some questions come to mind:

1). As an employer, do I also have to pay that minimum wage amount (whatever it is) to a teenager whose parents clear $100k or more per year?

2). The poverty line increases as household size increases. In a system like you describe, how do you keep employers from discriminating against people with lots of kids in favor of people with few kids or, ideally, people living alone? And in this post-DOMA era, how do you keep two roommates (or more) from gaming the system on their end by calling themselves a "household" for purposes of computing their minimum wage?

3) By my calculation, under current poverty guidelines, assuming a 100% minimum wage, a person living alone would be entitled to just $5.37/hour and a person living with one other person would be entitled to $7.27 per hour. I think current federal minimum wage is $7.25. Does your proposal really make much of a practical difference?

4). Do you count Medicaid in your computation of welfare benefits? Because the cash value of those alone could easily be several thousand dollars per annum.

This is a really intriguing idea, but I'd like to see how these implications could be sorted out.

I'd tie the minimum wage to the ceiling of the average household size. The most recent report I've seen shows the average household size as 2.56, so I would use the household size of 3. That would set minimum wage at $9.18. And I would leave it fixed. If a family decided to have more children/dependents, they need to figure out how to make it work (that may mean that a second adult has to pull in more income). The teenager that lives at home and is saving for college gets a foot up. It isn't a perfect system, but it's transparent, simple, and understandable.

One of the things I don't like about incremental increases based on household size is that the people most likely to attempt taking advantage of such systems usually lack the numeracy to understand the cost benefit. In the welfare setting, a person may get an extra $300 a month if they have a second child, and often they only see a gain of $300, not the additional $500 in costs that come with the child. (Those numbers are entirely made up, but I think the message holds).

I've said earlier that I'm willing to give ground on what household size poverty line we peg minimum wage to. I think the decision really depends on what the societal goals are. Do we want minimum wage to be able to hold a typical family size out of poverty with one breadwinner and one homemaker, or do we want to make it so that two working adults are required to support the typical family size (recognizing that day care becomes part of the equation then).

As for this:

I agree that correlation in this case does indicate causation; but I think you've got the causation exactly backwards. The lack of self discipline that gets people sent to jail, flunking school, doped up, and knocked up, will also tend to keep people in poverty. Aren't there studies out there about the huge percentage of people who win obscene amounts of money in the lottery, and ten years later they're right back in the slums?

As long as certain communities scorn those who obey the law, work hard in school, and abstain from drugs and sex, as "putting on airs" or "acting white" or "Oreos" or whatever--you won't end poverty; and it doesn't matter how much money you throw at the problem in the meantime.

I actually wouldn't assume a linear relationship between the two. Truthfully, it is probably cyclical with each end feeding the other. Unfortunately, we don't have good statistical models to measure this. Practically speaking, it's hard to coach the lazy out of people without giving them a carrot of hope to look forward to. If minimum wage won't support them, minimum wage jobs carry no dignity, and minimum wage doesn't give them a chance to pull themselves up higher, it's going to be hard to persuade them to reach higher. The first step to accomplishment is belief that you can achieve.

[skalenfehl]

These protesters need a lesson in economics. Furthermore, if anything, they should be protesting the income tax and the Federal Reserve!