Event Establishing Zion?

[Speakzeasy]

Here is the question: What event will occur previous to the establishment of Zion?

It is not as if there is no interested in the subject. And it isn't as though Joseph Smith did not attempt to establish Zion himself. So why is we are not asking the questions about how Zion is going to be established.

I know that there is a group of LDS members that think of going to Zion as being something the Prophet is going to inform us of some day. In fact the attitude of LDS Members about the subject reminds allot like the attitude of Christians whom think that there will be a "rapture" (John Darby) that will suddenly take a group of people to heaven at any moment.

Event may be different. Attitude basically the same.

So what happens if we turn to scripture?

So I am hoping to find out if this question can be answered:

In Isaiah 14:31-32 tells about an event that happens just prior or about the same time that Zion is founded.

31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it. (Isa. 14:31-32)

Anyone know what the smoke from the north is reference to?

It would seem that Joseph should have had an answer to this question. As the prophecy would have needed to be fulfilled at the time he attempted to found Zion. He did not complete the building of Zion. Was this prophecy fulfilled in Joseph Smith's day? If so what was it, why is that Zion as not been established?

If the prophecy in Isaiah 14:31-32 has not been fulfilled what do we know about its being fulfilled.

The cross reference at the bottom of page in the LDS published Bible have no information on this subject. The references used do not apply to this subject. I found that to be sad.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[mrmarklin]

Zion is established, and is part of an ongoing process that will culminate in the second coming of the Christ, the establishment of the New Jerusalem and the beginning of the millenium.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by an "event", unless it's the restoration of the church.

[Speakzeasy]

Zion is established, and is part of an ongoing process that will culminate in the second coming of the Christ, the establishment of the New Jerusalem and the beginning of the millenium.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by an "event", unless it's the restoration of the church.

So, my question can be answered. What is the event that is being referred when Isaiah states the "for there shall come from the north a smoke." That event must take place and is referenced to several times throughout scripture as being associated with establishment Zion.

Basically, I would like to know what that event is. You say that Zion is established. What can you tell me about that event that Isaiah tells us occurs prior or about the time of the founding Zion?

The "restoration" of the Gospel you refer to is what the Book of Mormon states as being the fullness of the gospel being forth to the Gentiles.

13 And now, the thing which our father meaneth concerning the grafting in of the natural branches through the fulness of the Gentiles, is, that in the latter days, when our seed shall have dwindled in unbelief, yea, for the space of many years, and many generations after the Messiah shall be manifested in body unto the children of men, then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed— (1 Ne. 15:13)

"through" in the above verse means 'by means of; by the agency of; noting instrumentality'

"from" in the above is 'used to show that somebody/something is separated or removed'

There is nothing that suggest that the Book of Mormon being brought to the Gentiles is in anyway the establishment of Zion.

Joseph Smith attempted to establish Zion after the Book of Mormon was published starting July 20, 1831 (D&C 57). The "restored" gospel was not the founding or expansion of Zion.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[Vort]

So, my question can be answered. What is the event that is being referred when Isaiah states the "for there shall come from the north a smoke." That event must take place and is referenced to several times throughout scripture as being associated with establishment Zion.

Basically, I would like to know what that event is.

The book of Isaiah is basically a long harangue against faithless Israel and a detailing of the wrath of God against those who defy their covenants. The north, which is on the left hand when you orient yourself correctly (facing east -- the top of a map is always the east), is where the false gods of apostate Israel traditionally resided. The smoke from the north might be their destruction and the resulting desolation of those in Israel who put their trust in such false gods. That is my interpretation.

[Speakzeasy]

The book of Isaiah is basically a long harangue against faithless Israel and a detailing of the wrath of God against those who defy their covenants.

This means that the other prophets that refer to the same events are talking about the subject as you present the idea about Isaiah. And we need to ignore the firm statement by Jesus himself in 3 Nephi:

1 AND now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah. (3 Ne. 32:1)

Dismissing and twisting scripture does not provide an understanding of them.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[Quin]

My personal (not doctrinal) feeling is that we're all already in Zion. The earth, the world itself, and that it's up to us to make this place our sanctuary, sacred, and worthy of the name. That its not any one point; not some city or mountain range, nation or enclave. That's it's HERE. Us. In Namibia or New Zealand. The Marianas Trench to the space station. This world, our home, all we've got. One people. Many ways.

Q

[Speakzeasy]

My personal (not doctrinal) feeling is that we're all already in Zion. The earth, the world itself, and that it's up to us to make this place our sanctuary, sacred, and worthy of the name.

Would this not negate Josephs idea of Zion being in "the land Missouri" which is "appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints" (D&C 57:1)?

If in fact Joseph established Zion, what the event that is spoken of by Isaiah? Joel and Ezekiel talk about this same event. The smoke from the north.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[Quin]

Would this not negate Josephs idea of Zion being in "the land Missouri" which is "appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints" (D&C 57:1)?

If in fact Joseph established Zion, what the event that is spoken of by Isaiah? Joel and Ezekiel talk about this same event. The smoke from the north.

Negate? Hardly.

Last time I checked, Missouri was still on this planet. Then again, it IS Missouri. There may be some reasonable doubt.

For truth, I see establishing Zion as an ethos. Make this one part of the world better, as good as one can. Then gradually expand the area of influence. Until its all encompassing. That it is encumber upon each of us to do so. First, in our homes. Then our schools, neighborhoods, everywhere. Every orange shirted aid worker bringing a piece of Zion with them. Where things may still be lousy, but darnit, we're going to try and make at least this PIECE better. One starfish at a time if necessary.

So, for me, that Missouri fell makes no nevermind. The saints did gather. And we're strengthened as only opposition can. And then moved on to a new point of light on the map. And another, and another, and another. Households. Wards. Stakes. Pieces.

Established. Not completed. Quite a bit o geography left.

Again, these are just my thoughts.

Q

[Just_A_Guy]

What do you mean by "Zion", Speakzeasy? Do you mean "New Jerusalem" (the specific, physical place), or do you mean "Zion" as a generic term for a society like that attained by Enoch?

I agree that New Jerusalem is on hold. I disagree with any assertion that the Church is not (painfully slowly) in the midst of the work of building a zion society.

And frankly, I don't know whether Isaiah 14 is speaking in the former or the latter sense; and neither am I convinced that he--or the rest of the Biblical or modern prophets--always use the term "Zion" with scientific consistency.

[Vort]

This means that the other prophets that refer to the same events are talking about the subject as you present the idea about Isaiah.

It means no such thing.

And we need to ignore the firm statement by Jesus himself in 3 Nephi:

1 AND now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah. (3 Ne. 32:1)

This is, of course, false.

Dismissing and twisting scripture does not provide an understanding of them.

Nor does dismissing and twisting what someone else wrote.

Have you ever actually read the book of Isaiah? If so, what do you find objectionable about my seemingly obvious observations?

[Speakzeasy]

What do you mean by "Zion", Speakzeasy? Do you mean "New Jerusalem" (the specific, physical place), or do you mean "Zion" as a generic term for a society like that attained by Enoch?

Just_A_Guy you know how to make me smile:). You're going make think and/or explain myself, my favorite things. I find I learn from these things.

This would be the New Jerusalem of Ether 13:6:

6 And that a New Jerusalem should be built up upon this land, unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph, for which things there has been a type (Ether 13:6-8)

It appears that Ether has two different "New Jerusalems" spoken of:

1. One from heaven in Ether 13:3, 9-10.

2. One built here upon the promised land in Ether 13:6-8.

There is mention of the old Jerusalem in Ether 13:11.

I do understand somewhat why Moroni was forbidden to write more more on the topic. (Ether 13:13)

The New Jerusalem built upon the promised land is the topic that I an trying identify the event with. And yes it is yet future and yes Isaiah know what he was talking about.

27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

29 ¶ Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.

30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.

31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it. (Isa. 14:27, 29-32)

Isaiah saw the establishment Zion (Physical) and the physical act of gathering the righteous of the house of Israel as an act of mercy on Gods part.

The event that Isaiah talks about that occurs with the smoke from the north relating Palestine just prior to or about the same time that Zion is founded falls in line with prophecies from Ezekiel, Joel and John (the Book of Revelation).

Isaiah's Palestine is the modern day State of Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. The region of Lebanon, Syria, Israel, West Bank and Gaza Strip are part of the eastern Mediterranean referred to as the Levant. Palestine was part of the Ottman Empire until the British conquered the area in 1917, toward the end of World War I. This prophecy in Isaiah 14:31-32 is about our time period.

The question still remains what was the event? Joseph Smith attempted to establish Zion in Missouri. What was and when did the smoke from the north of Palestine dissolve it for the purpose of establishing Zion? Joseph must have left some record of this event to or at least in part justify the attempt to founding Zion in Missouri.

[Speakzeasy]

Have you ever actually read the book of Isaiah? If so, what do you find objectionable about my seemingly obvious observations?

What seemly obvious observations? You over look the great value of the writings in Isaiah that apply to our day.

Isaiah is rich in information about events that have and will occur during our modern day. His writings provide an asset in the study and understanding of events/people that are written about by other prophets. I cannot express how invaluable his writing are to my own understanding of the prophecies leading us into the current events that bring about the establishment Zion (Physical). I feel bad that his (and others Biblical and Book of Mormon prophets) usefulness in the study in prophecy is so undermined by scholars so as not to understand how to apply prophetic writing to history. It is truly sad. They need to learn how to apply prophecy to history, not history to prophesy.

P.S. I don't completely disagree with you about the writings of Isaiah.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[Dravin]

You over look the great value of the writings in Isaiah that apply to our day.

You're basically just restating your earlier assertion that he's dismissing Isaiah.

Isaiah is rich in information about events that have and will occur during our modern day. His writings provide an asset in the study and understanding of events/people that are written about by other prophets. I cannot express how invaluable his writing are to my own understanding of the prophecies leading us into the current events that bring about the establishment Zion (Physical). I feel bad that his (and others Biblical and Book of Mormon prophets) usefulness in the study in prophecy is so undermined by scholars so as not to understand how to apply prophetic writing to history. It is truly sad. They need to learn how to apply prophecy to history, not history to prophesy.

You got the opposite of all that from Vort calling Isaiah a lengthy and aggressive speech about faithless Israel and those who disobey God?

@Vort: There is a compactness to your writings that I've never appreciated before.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Dravin

[Traveler]

The book of Isaiah is basically a long harangue against faithless Israel and a detailing of the wrath of God against those who defy their covenants. The north, which is on the left hand when you orient yourself correctly (facing east -- the top of a map is always the east), is where the false gods of apostate Israel traditionally resided. The smoke from the north might be their destruction and the resulting desolation of those in Israel who put their trust in such false gods. That is my interpretation.

Although I enjoy your very interesting insights I would point out that Isaiah is hardly a "long harangue" but rather revelation of "all things" from the beginning to the end (Isaiah 46:10). But because such divine declarations are given metaphorically through symbolism many do not comprehend. Only through the Spirit of G-d will one understand the revelation of Isaiah.

I like your understanding of orientation - except that the top of a map is always north - not east - but I think you realize that when facing east that north (top of a map) is at our left hand.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Here is the question: What event will occur previous to the establishment of Zion?

It is not as if there is no interested in the subject. And it isn't as though Joseph Smith did not attempt to establish Zion himself. So why is we are not asking the questions about how Zion is going to be established.

I know that there is a group of LDS members that think of going to Zion as being something the Prophet is going to inform us of some day. In fact the attitude of LDS Members about the subject reminds allot like the attitude of Christians whom think that there will be a "rapture" (John Darby) that will suddenly take a group of people to heaven at any moment.

Event may be different. Attitude basically the same.

So what happens if we turn to scripture?

So I am hoping to find out if this question can be answered:

In Isaiah 14:31-32 tells about an event that happens just prior or about the same time that Zion is founded.

31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it. (Isa. 14:31-32)

Anyone know what the smoke from the north is reference to?

It would seem that Joseph should have had an answer to this question. As the prophecy would have needed to be fulfilled at the time he attempted to found Zion. He did not complete the building of Zion. Was this prophecy fulfilled in Joseph Smith's day? If so what was it, why is that Zion as not been established?

If the prophecy in Isaiah 14:31-32 has not been fulfilled what do we know about its being fulfilled.

The cross reference at the bottom of page in the LDS published Bible have no information on this subject. The references used do not apply to this subject. I found that to be sad.

I believe that Isaiah is written in a unique ancient Hebrew poetic style. One of the known methods of ancient Hebrew poetic style utilized by Isaiah is what is called dualism. But dualism is hardly a proper term because in essence dualism often mean many rather than just 2.

So in other words the dualism style utilized by Isaiah would suggest that the application of the revelation could be applied to many events of history. In fact Nephi suggest that we take the words of Isaiah and apply them to our individual day and circumstance. In strict terms I believe he is suggesting that the baby boomer generation find much that applies to them as can generation X (even though there is a lot of differences in these modern age generations).

You might want to ask - When was Zion established for you?

The Traveler

[Just_A_Guy]

And yes it is yet future and yes Isaiah know what he was talking about.

27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

29 ¶ Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.

30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.

31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it. (Isa. 14:27, 29-32)

Isaiah saw the establishment Zion (Physical) and the physical act of gathering the righteous of the house of Israel as an act of mercy on Gods part.

I agree with Vort insomuch that I think most of the book of Isaiah was, on its face, directed towards current events in the region. I agree with you insofar that I think there are a lot of "dual prophecies". The trick is figuring out which statements in Isaiah are dual prophecies; and which ones aren't. As I understand it, Isaiah can also mean "Zion" to mean merely the city Jerusalem (old Jerusalem). That's why at present I'm a little hesitant to jump on board with the idea that verses 31-32 deal specifically with latter-day events.

The event that Isaiah talks about that occurs with the smoke from the north relating Palestine just prior to or about the same time that Zion is founded falls in line with prophecies from Ezekiel, Joel and John (the Book of Revelation).

Would love to see cites.

The question still remains what was the event? Joseph Smith attempted to establish Zion in Missouri. What was and when did the smoke from the north of Palestine dissolve it for the purpose of establishing Zion? Joseph must have left some record of this event to or at least in part justify the attempt to founding Zion in Missouri.

Frankly--I'm not sure that was Joseph's thought process. I don't think he was saying "here's a column of smoke in Turkey; it must be time to build New Jerusalem". I think he was motivated primarily by revelations he received such as D&C 28, 45, 52 and 57. And frankly, the fact that the Church did not succeed in building New Jerusalem at that time, indicates to me that there's a good chance that the "smoke in the north"--if indeed it is a prerequisite to the construction of New Jerusalem--may not have happened at all.

[Vort]

What seemly obvious observations?

• That Isaiah is a lengthy cussing-out of the covenant people, detailing their utter destruction by God
• That the ancients always oriented themselves by facing east ("orient" = "eastward"), and that their maps put east, not north, at the top
• That the gods of apostate Israel and surrounding tribes were thought to live in the north

All of these things can be readily seen or inferred by reading the KJV of Isaiah. With which do you disagree?

You over look the great value of the writings in Isaiah that apply to our day.

What leads you to make this accusation? What have I written that suggests such a thing?

Isaiah is rich in information about events that have and will occur during our modern day. His writings provide an asset in the study and understanding of events/people that are written about by other prophets. I cannot express how invaluable his writing are to my own understanding of the prophecies leading us into the current events that bring about the establishment Zion (Physical). I feel bad that his (and others Biblical and Book of Mormon prophets) usefulness in the study in prophecy is so undermined by scholars so as not to understand how to apply prophetic writing to history. It is truly sad. They need to learn how to apply prophecy to history, not history to prophesy.

As I see it, you are mistaken on several counts, including:

• The book of Isaiah is history. If you fail to understand this, you fail to grasp both the meaning and the genius of Isaiah.
• Studying prophecy in itself, thinking you can just pull out the meaning by sheer will and exercise of cleverness, is futile. Millions of people have spent thousands of years doing exactly that, with the result that they will say, "Oh, look, John the Revelator saw WWII fighter planes with faces painted on them! That's what he means here!" The real meaning and insight of such prophecy is itself given by the Spirit, and in no other way.
• Recognizing and appreciating historical context does not diminish the influence of the Spirit.

I have no idea what you mean by your final sentence above, but clearly history must be applied to prophecy.

P.S. I don't completely disagree with you about the writings of Isaiah.

That is gratifying, but I would still like to know which parts you found objectionable.

[Vort]

@Vort: There is a compactness to your writings that I've never appreciated before.

thx:)

Although I enjoy your very interesting insights I would point out that Isaiah is hardly a "long harangue" but rather revelation of "all things" from the beginning to the end (Isaiah 46:10).

Not sure why it can't be both. I believe as a matter of faith and religious precept that the book of Isaiah is a revelation of events past, present, and future. But it seems beyond argument that it is a historical retelling of woes brought to Israel because of their covenant-breaking behavior.

I like your understanding of orientation - except that the top of a map is always north - not east - but I think you realize that when facing east that north (top of a map) is at our left hand.

We put north at the top of a map because we realize we live on a gigantic spinning ball, and putting the axis (pole) toward the top makes sense. The ancients realized no such thing, or if they did, they didn't care. The sun was born in the east every morning. It was the direction of life (just as west was the direction of death; remember how Tolkien's elves were heading to the western lands?). The very word "orient" means "eastward". Ancient maps typically put east at the top of the map; there would have been no special reason ever to intentionally put north at the top, unless local geography made it convenient.

[mordorbund]

Although I enjoy your very interesting insights I would point out that Isaiah is hardly a "long harangue" but rather revelation of "all things" from the beginning to the end (Isaiah 46:10). But because such divine declarations are given metaphorically through symbolism many do not comprehend. Only through the Spirit of G-d will one understand the revelation of Isaiah.

I like your understanding of orientation - except that the top of a map is always north - not east - but I think you realize that when facing east that north (top of a map) is at our left hand.

The Traveler

I read a passage in Amos that talks about people searching from the north to the east. I paid Dr. Donald Parry a visit at his BYU office and asked him if he had any idea why these directions would be listed instead of a standard opposing pair. He didn't have an answer, but he did have an old map of Jerusalem and told me to take a look at the legend. East was up.

Edited October 5, 2013 by mordorbund

[ElectofGod]

"wo unto him that saith zion prospereth" 2 nephi 28

What is the event?

Quite a few,

Jacob 6:1 And now, behold, my brethren, as I said unto you that I would prophesy, behold, this is my prophecy—that the things which this prophet Zenos spake, concerning the house of Israel, in the which he likened them unto a tame olive tree, must surely come to pass.

2 And the day that he shall set his hand again the second time to recover his people, is the day, yea, even the last time, that the servants of the Lord shall go forth in his power, to nourish and prune his vineyard; and after that the end soon cometh.

Zion is a new dispensation, so look for the opening of a new dispensation.

But more personally, when have you become Zion? When we converse with the lord through the veil, or enter into his presence and receive him. These are they that are pure in heart (zion are the pure in heart). If you don't do this, it won't matter when zion comes.

Two ways zion will be redeemed, before destruction like enoch, or after destruction like 3 nephi, one is compelled to be humble the other is not. Than those who were compelled in 3 nephi, those who survived were those who "were more righteous" among them.

We have NOT established zion. Not even close. We rejected it, the saints did. Another event? A new star. When did the israelites get led out of bondage as mentioned through out isaiah that we will be led out of bondage and the story of the years of famine (7 years)? After the years of scarcity, as hinckley said, we are in the days of scarcity. Were more wicked (society) than sodom.

Revelations 3:20 Behold, I [christ] stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

[skalenfehl]

We are children of Zion, yes, but Zion has not been established. We are not equal in all things. We still have poor among us. People are still worldly as ever, even in and especially in the church. Zion will not be established until New Jerusalem is built and the city of Enoch returns and this will not happen until the desolating scourge and the times of the gentiles is fulfilled (very near).

[Speakzeasy]

We are children of Zion, yes, but Zion has not been established. We are not equal in all things. We still have poor among us. People are still worldly as ever, even in and especially in the church. Zion will not be established until New Jerusalem is built and the city of Enoch returns and this will not happen until the desolating scourge and the times of the gentiles is fulfilled (very near).

We have NOT established zion. Not even close. We rejected it, the saints did. Another event? A new star. When did the israelites get led out of bondage as mentioned through out isaiah that we will be led out of bondage and the story of the years of famine (7 years)? After the years of scarcity, as hinckley said, we are in the days of scarcity. Were more wicked (society) than sodom.

Hmm . . . . .

Knowing this, what is the event that Isaiah (Isa. 14:31-32) talks about. What is it about details that we seem to be over looking that we give our approval of without question.

Isaiah gives the information about the event associated with the establishment of Zion in our day. It seems that we talk about things in a manner that displays a good deal of knowledge about what we believe is suppose to happen related to the establish of Zion. Why are not we noticing the details that are in front of us? Why as an inspired latter-day church do we not know what this event is? As you have pointed out events that we think are to occur with the establishment of Zion. Isaiah is very direct with the subject. What is missing?

Edited October 12, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[skalenfehl]

Hmm . . . . .

Knowing this, what is the event that Isaiah (Isa. 14:31-32) talks about. What is it about details that we seem to be over looking that we give our approval of without question.

Isaiah gives the information about the event associated with the establishment of Zion in our day. It seems that we talk about things in a manner that displays a good deal of knowledge about what we believe is suppose to happen related to the establish of Zion. Why are not we noticing the details that are in front of us? Why as an inspired latter-day church do we not know what this event is? As you have pointed out events that we think are to occur with the establishment of Zion. Isaiah is very direct with the subject. What is missing?

Isaiah is referring to the Philistines. He is saying that they shouldn't rejoice prematurely in the destruction of Assyria. You have to go back a few verses.

29 ¶Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent’s root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.

30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.

31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the Lord hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.

After Assyria (serpent's root) falls, Babylon will rise (cockatrise) and his fruit (i.e. fruit of loins) is Nebuchadnezzar who then also came against the Philistines as we read in v. 31. Understanding Isaiah requires some understanding of the history of Assyria and surrounding nations/conflicts.

[skalenfehl]

What I find interesting in v 31 is that when Babylon destroyed Jerusalem before Lehi escaped, thousands of smiths, princes, artisans, etc were taken captive along with their families, leaving only the poorest of the poor in Jerusalem behind. They were of no value to Babylon and its empire.

The Lord has always protected his most humble and poor people. Poor because they are poor in heart. In Zion none exist but those who are equal in all things. There are no rich there. Joseph Smith was a poor businessman because he literally impoverished himself in the process of helping anyone and everyone. This is why Jesus Christ told the rich man to go and sell everything he had, give the money to the poor. Then and only then would he be ready to follow the Master. Thus, in my opinion, As He prepares to bring Zion back, only the pure in heart, which are the poor in heart will be worthy to abide the building up of Zion and His presence. The Lord takes care of His own.

[Speakzeasy]

Isaiah is referring to the Philistines. He is saying that they shouldn't rejoice prematurely in the destruction of Assyria. You have to go back a few verses.

Isaiah and other prophets will talk about things going on during their own time period and then jump that moment forward to the last days. Isaiah does this with the founding of Zion statement in Isa. 14:31-32.

Another example of this is in Isaiah 5:26-30. He does the same thing with the story presented there. The 'ensign' mentioned in verse 26 is the Zion in Isa. 14:32.

Another good example is Jeremiah chapters 50 and 51. If you were to read those chapters you should see that the events he associates with Babylon are applied to a future date. That is our future (near present) time period. Only Jeremiah (as does Isaiah and others) uses his understanding to tell the story from his day and jumps forward to our day.

Last day prophecy is presented this way. When a vision was given to prophets, they simply recorded to the best of their understanding. It is interesting how much methodology they have in common between them.

You might find the cross reference (as examples) between Jeremiah 51:8 and Revelation 18:9, Jeremiah 51:13 and Revelation 17:1 of interest. Johns vision is about our time period. John came along well after the Babylon of Jeremiah's time.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Speakzeasy