On observation concerning USA politics

[Traveler]

It should be obvious at this point that many things being said in the political arena are outright lies with full intent to deceive and mislead the citizens of the USA. What also should be obvious is that both political parties are more focused on their political agenda and power than they are in serving the American people.

I use to think that the USA was the least corrupt of any country - now I do not believe that to be so. I believe our corruption has spilled far beyond politics - and into entertainment, methods of conducting business (including advertizing), education and in what is considered socially acceptable.

Although I very much would be an optimist - I honestly do not see any way out of this mess without divine intervention. The one hope I have is in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and others that are willing to align themselves with the prophets that lead the LDS. Those that align themselves against temple marriage, the family and getting out of debt greatly concern me. It is my observations and finding that too many hearts among the Saints are turning from and finding excuse to criticize elements that the Saints have received by revelation. I expect the next 5 years or so to be most interesting and informative.

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

It should be obvious at this point that many things being said in the political arena are outright lies with full intent to deceive and mislead the citizens of the USA.

Actually, I have a slightly more charitable view on things. It's not that we're being outright lied to with full intent to deceive. It's that we're being spun, with full intent to shape our response in such a way that helps the spinners achieve an end.

(Not much of a difference? Remember, I did say slightly more charitable.)

What also should be obvious is that both political parties are more focused on their political agenda and power than they are in serving the American people.

Two great commandments of politics:

1. Thou shalt get in power.

2. Thou shalt grow in power.

I use to think that the USA was the least corrupt of any country - now I do not believe that to be so. I believe our corruption has spilled far beyond politics - and into entertainment, methods of conducting business (including advertizing), education and in what is considered socially acceptable.

Yeah. I went down that roller coaster somewhere around the turn of the century. Rough ride bro - hope you land better.

Although I very much would be an optimist - I honestly do not see any way out of this mess without divine intervention.

Here's how I see things, and the USA's place in them:

All nations have three things - a political class, an economic class, and a military class. If you are missing one of these things, you're not really a nation, but a vassal-state of some other nation. Every class contains elites. The elites vie among themselves for personal power, and classes vie among other classes for national power, and nations vie among each other for geopolitical power. One nation will see the economic powerbrokers as most influential, other nations will be dominated by military or political class.

There is only one way you make a difference in any level, and it's not through being good, or right, or truthful, or just. It's through having leverage against the other guy/class/nation. This has been the situation everywhere, since Adam and Eve got the boot from the garden and their kids grew up. Satan runs the show with his powerful armies and earthly treasures and whatnot. This will always be the situation until the millennium. This is what God's kids do, when given their own planet and told to be good.

The USA is a relatively new dancer in a very, very old song. We started out, youthful and full of ideology, tested our muscles against our neighbors, evolved into a world power, hegemon, and finally an empire. Now we're doing what empires do, and destroying ourselves from within. God never propped up any of the other fallen empires, I think it's just ordinary hubris to believe he'd do it with ours, because we're somehow more righteous, or our constitution more inspired, or whatever.

(Again, this is where I landed. I hope your landing is softer.)

[Still_Small_Voice]

From what I see America will continue to crumble until there are a good number of people who wish to turn to God and obey His commandments. Make the covenant with God fellow Americans to follow Him and ask for His protection.

If we refuse it is only a matter of time before America we knew is completely gone.

[Guest]

I agree with LM.

Lots of nations have risen and fallen. It's the cycle of nations. I mean, look at the Nephites and Lamanites... Up and down they go.

We tend to think America is the last of these great nations. I'm not so sure about that. America rose and eventually it will fall. Because we are a fallen people and that's just the way of it.

I don't know why you think America is not corrupt. I worked for the Marcos elections and I was stapling 7 pesos to ballots. 7 pesos at that time was like 50 cents. And we all know how corrupt Marcos was. But, I come to America and they were buying elections. Well, not with 7 pesos stapled to a ballot, but by fancy words like welfare and affirmative action and amnesty. And, of course, congress was buying senate and house votes with pork. Frankly, I'd rather staple 7 pesos to ballots. At least it's something you can work into the government budget as an every 6-years fixed expenditure (Philippine presidents have a 6 year term). Not something that gets budgeted at 900 million that would end up costing 2 trillion!

[Windseeker]

So where do we go to avoid it?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/World_Map_Index_of_perception_of_corruption.svg

[Anddenex]

I expect the next 5 years or so to be most interesting and informative.

The Traveler

I am definitely interested to watch what will happen within four years. My personal opinion I think we will see something happen within our government and within our Church that will either draw people toward the Church or away from it either before the next presidential election or a short time after the next president is determined.

[Praetorian_Brow]

America will default on their loans, crashing the markets and ending their barely 70 year "empire". However, as it rusts away, just like the USSR did, more people will get desperate, leading to more conflict. Besides, its easier to attack the same people who hold your loans, sort of like what Germany did with France.

[Guest]

America will default on their loans, crashing the markets and ending their barely 70 year "empire". However, as it rusts away, just like the USSR did, more people will get desperate, leading to more conflict. Besides, its easier to attack the same people who hold your loans, sort of like what Germany did with France.

I have been thinking about this. I still don't quite grasp how America plans to diminish its $17T debt. Some magicking will have to happen, like a bomb dropped in China. With Obamacare on the brink of full implementation, it's just going to get much much worse.

[NeuroTypical]

Guess what I bought off of ebay for three bucks a while ago:

Have a few years of double or triple digit inflation, and suddenly 15 trillion in debt isn't that daunting.

[yjacket]

I have been thinking about this. I still don't quite grasp how America plans to diminish its $17T debt. Some magicking will have to happen, like a bomb dropped in China. With Obamacare on the brink of full implementation, it's just going to get much much worse.

The magic is the "magic" of inflation.

And it's not so much the amount but the ratio.

United States Government Debt To GDP | Actual Data | Forecasts

To put it in perspective, if we had the debt/gdp ratio of the 1940s the debt would be 20T right now. At some point, economies have too much debt relative to what they produce and the debt starts to choke off their productivity. At what point that starts to happen is anyone's guess. There are only three ways out of the problem. 1a) Pay it back through increase in productivity 1b) Pay it back with increase in taxes 2) inflate out of it (soft default), or 3) hard default. The so called "austerity" programs are really #1b, which is like getting blood from a turnip. 1 & 3 are politically not viable so 2 is what will happen . . . .although IMO it's the worst choice.

Of course things get a little worse when you actually realize that our entire economic system is built on nothing but debt. If the US eliminated all debt, then all the dollar bills in existence would go up in a puff of smoke.

It's a retched system of slavery for the masses and expropriation for the uber-wealthy, the politically connected, the financially wealth connected. It's a system that actively promotes financial bubbles and corruption. If The Traveler thinks corruption is bad at the political level, then wait until he discovers the corruption of the monetary system, 100x worse.

For a quick and dirty see:The Federal Reserve Can Only Fail | Peak Prosperity

And I highly recommend the Crash Course

The Crash Course | Peak Prosperity

Very simple quick videos on some big problems

Edited October 30, 2013 by yjacket

[mnn727]

“The America of my time line is a laboratory example of what can happen to democracies, what has eventually happened to all perfect democracies throughout all histories. A perfect democracy, a ‘warm body’ democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction. It depends solely on the wisdom and self-restraint of citizens… which is opposed by the folly and lack of self-restraint of other citizens. What is supposed to happen in a democracy is that each sovereign citizen will always vote in the public interest for the safety and welfare of all. But what does happen is that he votes his own self-interest as he sees it… which for the majority translates as ‘Bread and Circuses.’

‘Bread and Circuses’ is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure. Democracy often works beautifully at first. But once a state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in its weakened condition the state succumbs to an invader—the barbarians enter Rome.”

Robert Heinlein

[Quin]

“The America of my time line is a laboratory example of what can happen to democracies, what has eventually happened to all perfect democracies throughout all histories. A perfect democracy, a ‘warm body’ democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction. It depends solely on the wisdom and self-restraint of citizens… which is opposed by the folly and lack of self-restraint of other citizens. What is supposed to happen in a democracy is that each sovereign citizen will always vote in the public interest for the safety and welfare of all. But what does happen is that he votes his own self-interest as he sees it… which for the majority translates as ‘Bread and Circuses.’

‘Bread and Circuses’ is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure. Democracy often works beautifully at first. But once a state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in its weakened condition the state succumbs to an invader—the barbarians enter Rome.”

Robert Heinlein

Out of all political commentators in history... Heilein is probably my favorite. Here's another quote by him:

Signs of a dying culture

It is a bad sign when the people of a country stop identifying themselves with the country and start identifying with a group. A racial group. Or a religion. Or a language. Anything, as long as it isn't the whole population.

A very bad sign. Particularism. It was once considered a Spanish vice but any country can fall sick with it. Dominance of males over females seems to be one of the symptoms.

Before a revolution can take place, the population must loose faith in both the police and the courts.

High taxation is important and so is inflation of the currency and the ratio of the productive to those on the public payroll. But that's old hat; everybody knows that a country is on the skids when its income and outgo get out of balance and stay that way - even though there are always endless attempts to wish it way by legislation. But I started looking for little signs and what some call silly-season symptoms.

I want to mention one of the obvious symptoms: Violence. Muggings. Sniping. Arson. Bombing. Terrorism of any sort. Riots of course - but I suspect that little incidents of violence, pecking way at people day after day, damage a culture even more than riots that flare up and then die down. Oh, conscription and slavery and arbitrary compulsion of all sorts and imprisonment without bail and without speedy trial - but those things are obvious; all the histories list them.

I think you have missed the most alarming symptom of all. This one I shall tell you. But go back and search for it. Examine it. Sick cultures show a complex of symptoms as you have named... But a dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than a riot.

This symptom is especially serious in that an individual displaying it never thinks of it as a sign of ill health but as proof of his/her strength. Look for it. Study it. It is too late to save this culture - this worldwide culture, not just the freak show here in California. Therefore we must now prepare the monasteries for the coming Dark Age. Electronic records are too fragile; we must again have books, of stable inks and resistant paper.

Friday & Dr. Baldwin in "Friday" by Robert A Heinlein

----

Also... Why I personally will NOT vote my religious choices into law:

"It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics." - Robert A Heinlein

That and that I've lived in religious states. It always blows my mind that the same people clamoring for democracy in the middle easy, and and end to the caliphate and religious tyranny in other nations are the same people clamoring to have our own nation turned into a religious state.

Q

[bytebear]

“The America of my time line is a laboratory example of what can happen to democracies, what has eventually happened to all perfect democracies throughout all histories. A perfect democracy, a ‘warm body’ democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction. It depends solely on the wisdom and self-restraint of citizens… which is opposed by the folly and lack of self-restraint of other citizens. What is supposed to happen in a democracy is that each sovereign citizen will always vote in the public interest for the safety and welfare of all. But what does happen is that he votes his own self-interest as he sees it… which for the majority translates as ‘Bread and Circuses.’

‘Bread and Circuses’ is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure. Democracy often works beautifully at first. But once a state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in its weakened condition the state succumbs to an invader—the barbarians enter Rome.”

Robert Heinlein

Which is why we have a Federal Democratic Republic. The founders knew that a pure democracy would fail, but if they gave each state or region maximum sovereignty, then they may vote their own region into poverty and depravity, but economic factors will force citizens and businesses to seek out different regions (states) to live in that have a more successful strategy. The problem is really with the balance of powers ganging up on the states and taking away all of their sovereignty. Simply put, 90% of what the Federal government does is unconstitutional. I would love to live in a nation that tells people, "Sorry, but we have no jurisdiction to solve your problems. You go figure it out."