"anti" Propoganda

[JonboySquarepants]

francine, are you lds?

[JonboySquarepants]

nevermind. you're toaist. i should have checked your profile first. :) francine, the lds church believes that we were all born (angels and humans) to our heavenly father and heavenly mother in the premortal existence.

[Francine]

nevermind. you're toaist. i should have checked your profile first. :) francine, the lds church believes that we were all born (angels and humans) to our heavenly father and heavenly mother in the premortal existence.

I cannot comment on the doctrine of a heavenly mother, because I have been firmly chastised by LDS on another forum for assuming that things are LDS doctrines which do not appear in the KJV, the BoM, the D&C, or the PoGP.

[JonboySquarepants]

why wold they do that? aren't lds taught that God is married? that God once was a man and went through his mortal experience just as we are doing, that he married, and fathered our spirits in heaven? why would you be chastised for commenting on a doctrine in which they believe?

[Iggy]

nevermind. you're toaist. i should have checked your profile first. :) francine, the lds church believes that we were all born (angels and humans) to our heavenly father and heavenly mother in the premortal existence.

Give references JonBoy- references! We really are not taught about Heavenly Mother. Though there is reference to her in one of our hymns- unless I have missed that months lesson in Gospel Doctrine class. Where are the references?

[JonboySquarepants]

are you saying that you, you personally, do not believe in a heavenly mother?

[Iggy]

are you saying that you, you personally, do not believe in a heavenly mother?

It doesn't matter what I, personally-as an individual- think. You are conversing with an investigator- who seems to take what we, as individuals think and feel, as GOSPEL- DOCTRINE.

Unless it is our standard works - or explained fully in a conference talk - Investigators could very well misinterpret our feelings and thoughts as Doctrine.

Reference to a Heavenly Mother in just a Hymn, is not good enough. Can you reference it in the Standard Works, or an article from one of the Church Magazines??

[Francine]

why wold they do that? aren't lds taught that God is married? that God once was a man and went through his mortal experience just as we are doing, that he married, and fathered our spirits in heaven? why would you be chastised for commenting on a doctrine in which they believe?

I was told in no uncertain terms to keep my questions about what Mormons believe confined only to things which are given in what they called the Standard Works. This is rather difficult for me, because I only have access to the KJV and the BoM.

[JonboySquarepants]

francine, go to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

there, you can highlight "Gospel Library" and then click on "Scriptures." there it will let you choose between the old testament, new testamant, book of mormon, doctrine and covenants, pearl of great price, and also give you links to the lds study helps.

[JonboySquarepants]

iggy, i wouldn't say it if it wasn't taught. i know for a fact that it is taught. are you saying that it is not taught? do you believe in it? if you do, why? was it taught to you? now i'm just curious.

[JonboySquarepants]

iggy, here is a link to a primary lesson for the kids.

LDS.org - Primary Chapter Detail - I Am a Child of God

the lesson is entitled "I Am a Child of God." the reference is “Lesson 3: I Am a Child of God,” Primary 2: Choose the Right A, 11."

in this lesson, the primary kids are taught of heavenly mother.

why teach it to the kids if it is not church doctrine?

[Iggy]

iggy, here is a link to a primary lesson for the kids.

LDS.org - Primary Chapter Detail - I Am a Child of God

the lesson is entitled "I Am a Child of God." the reference is “Lesson 3: I Am a Child of God,” Primary 2: Choose the Right A, 11."

in this lesson, the primary kids are taught of heavenly mother.

why teach it to the kids if it is not church doctrine?

In your reference, heavenly mother is all in small case. Here you will see the Official LDS statement: It is from LDS Newsroom, scroll all the way down to Clairfications to Religion Writers and Editors regarding Newsweek Report 7 September 2001- Click on that and it is the fifth paragraph from the bottom:

"(God) also has a divine wife, whom Mormons call the Mother." [this is from Newsweek]

"The Mother" is not a term that is used among Church members, in Church meetings, classes or lesson manuals. While the official Proclamation on the Family affirms that each human being is a beloved son or daughter of heavenly parents, there are no teachings about a Heavenly Mother in Latter-day Saint scripture." [this is from the LDS Church]

[JonboySquarepants]

i don't understand. the quote you gave me says it's not taught but i showed you where it is taught. it's taught to primary kids. "the official Proclamation on the Family affirms that each human being is a beloved son or daughter of heavenly parents..." i'm assuming that one of the heavenly parents is heavenly father, and the other is a heavenly mother. if that's what the official proclamation on the family teachs, how does the church not teach that there is a heavenly mother?

i don't see where i'm supposed to click to read it.

[Iggy]

i don't understand. the quote you gave me says it's not taught but i showed you where it is taught. it's taught to primary kids. "the official Proclamation on the Family affirms that each human being is a beloved son or daughter of heavenly parents..." i'm assuming that one of the heavenly parents is heavenly father, and the other is a heavenly mother. if that's what the official proclamation on the family teachs, how does the church not teach that there is a heavenly mother?

JonBoy- the reference you gave me does NOT teach that we have a Heavenly Mother.

I am going to quote it for you:

Explain that we all lived in heaven with Heavenly Father before we came to this earth. We are his children. That is why we call him Heavenly Father. We also lived with our heavenly mother and all the rest of Heavenly Father’s children. Everyone who has been born on the earth is a child of Heavenly Father. We do not remember living with Heavenly Father, but we know we are his children because we read it in the scriptures.

Because heavenly mother is not capitalized, she is not Heavenly Fathers spouse. She is our mother who lived with us in heaven, just like our siblings, father, grandparents lived with us in heaven. I know, I taught this lesson in Primary. It was a difficult lesson for me to teach, because I feel that Heavenly Father has a Heavenly Wife. BUT that is MY personal feelings, NOT the Doctrine of the church. As a Primary 1st Councilor- I must teach what is Doctrine. I can not and did not teach the Gospel according to Iggy. :)

[prisonchaplain]

I just read the passage in the lesson manual. It refers to Heavenly Father and heavenly mother. In the clarification, the church says it does not teach Heavenly Mother or "The Mother." True...it teaches heavenly mother.

Frankly, the clarification seems to create more confusion. What does the lack of capitization for heavenly mother indicate?

[JonboySquarepants]

so, we have heavenly parents, but they are not married?

[Guest Malcolm]

Chaplan:

I think the issue here is one of cognitive dissonance. It "sounds weird" to think about Jesus and Lucifer as well as us in those terms. The fact is that most people do not engage in those kinds of philosophical mind bends. Once we stop to consider that we are ALL (spiritual and physical creation) children of the Father then the conclusion is unavoidable. Yes Al-Satan "the accuser" is also our relative although we certainly abhor the kinship and do not give him much air time in our talks. My grandma would not even mention his name "the cursed one" she called him. But unfortunately yes, were are relatives. He forsook his inheritance by rebellion and has an appointment on a lava spa at the end times. We, on account of our faith in Christ, his Atonement and the covenants our Father has provided for us will inherit His kingdom and ALL that He has. Is that beautiful or what?

[a-train]

There is no indication in the capitalization or lack thereof of the marital status our our heavenly mother. The difference is that of pronoun vs. noun. Heavenly Father is our heavenly father. The capital letters designate a name or title. We have no name for our mother in heaven. We do not call upon any being by that name while in this life.

However, we have every indication that the mother of our spirit is indeed married to our Heavenly Father. The indications of this are in the terms of exaltation itself. We know that God has passed through the temporal human experience as we have. Jesus is the Great Testimony of that fact.

We further know that 'In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.' (D&C 131:1-4)

It is therefore believed that as the Saviour passed through all the requirements necessary to fulfil all righteousness (Matt 3:15), He would also pass through the requirements of the highest priesthood.

Because the Father also passed through these things, He too would have entered into such a covenant. Now, we cannot be certain that these things have taken place. We have no revelation that explicitly tells us of the Saviour or the Father having been married.

So there you have it. We know we have a heavenly mother and that God has at a minimum the power to be married. But that is about all we have with total conclusiveness. We can only assume that our heavenly mother is indeed married to God, the idea that she is not would seem to present us the notion of illegitimacy. However, if we arrive in God's Presence to discover a system yet unimagined, we should not be concerned.

-a-train

[Dr T]

I do not believe that God has to do anything but be. God has no other requirements.

[JonboySquarepants]

a-train, thank you. iggy was really starting to confuse me. i knew lds believe that heavenly father is married and has a heavenly wife, but she was telling me that that's not true. even though she does believe it. :)

[Iggy]

a-train, thank you. iggy was really starting to confuse me. i knew lds believe that heavenly father is married and has a heavenly wife, but she was telling me that that's not true. even though she does believe it. :)

What I said JonBoy is that it is NOT taught as Doctrine in the Church. I even provided a direct quote along with the link. When we answer questions of investigators and when we teach- we are admonished to teach only the doctrines of the Church.

[WillowTheWhisp]

If it was not a doctrine of the church I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be allowed in the Hymn book. Those hymns aren't just written on a whim. They are specifically chosen. We don't have any details of our heavenly mother and knowing about her isn't pertinent to our salvation. The things which are concentrated on when new members and investigators are being taught are the things which are important to our salvation. It's like being fed milk first before we can digest the meat.

willow, the book of mormon says:

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

37 And now, my beloved brethren, I desire that ye should remember these things, and that ye should work out your salvation with fear before God, and that ye should no more deny the coming of Christ;"

alma 34:32-37

if God says that "Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world," then why do temple work for people that already died? isn't saying they can't accept him after they're dead?

The significant part in your quote is "as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance" - it is addressed to those who have already heard the Gospel, not just once but 'so many' times and they are being urged not to put off acting upon that. If they do not accept then they have made their choice. This is totally different to people who have never had the opportunity to hear.

[tiancum]

I do not believe that God has to do anything but be. God has no other requirements.

He probably has to create something too.

[rameumptom]

Originally Posted by Dr T View Post

I do not believe that God has to do anything but be. God has no other requirements.

Moses 1:39 teaches us that God's work AND GLORY are to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man. God, to be God, does have requirements. God must be forever progressing in works, otherwise he would cease to be God.

Unlike the Trinitarian view of God, LDS believe that God is fully integrated mentally and emotionally with his creations. Enoch witnessed God cry at the preparation of destroying the world by Flood. The resurrected Jesus wept before the Nephites several times, once due to the wickedness of the House of Israel. When a child cries, God is emotionally connected. When a child falls from grace, it weighs heavy on God's being.

Otherwise, what would the Bible mean when it says, "God is love"? If God is disconnected from us, then how could he really love us? In the Book of Moses, we get a true feeling for God's concern and love for us, as he explains to Enoch that he weeps because these are his creation, his children, and it saddens him to have to chasten or destroy them.

So, I am of the strong opinion that God cannot just be, he must do all things required to be God - creating universes and children and families.

[pushka]

why wold they do that? aren't lds taught that God is married? that God once was a man and went through his mortal experience just as we are doing, that he married, and fathered our spirits in heaven? why would you be chastised for commenting on a doctrine in which they believe?

Here is where non LDS are confused regarding LDS doctrine of the nature of God.

You state here that God was once a man and went thru his mortal experience as we are doing, and that he married and fathered our spirits in Heaven...

I have heard God's mortality explained by LDS on this forum as being the time when Jesus took on the mortal frame...so that would be after the time that God fathered His and all of our spirits..

So how could God have been mortal and then died, married a wife and fathered all of us, including Jesus, before he became mortal as Jesus?

This is very confusing...Does that also infer that our heavenly mother was a mortal before she married God and conceived our spirits?