Doctrines of the church

[gfchase]

The BASIC doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are so simple that even a child of 8 can understand them sufficient to be baptized, but the more we learn the more confusion as to what is doctrine comes creeping in. We all learn line upon line , precept, upon precept, here a little and there a little until we eventually come if we are worthy, to a full understanding of all Fathers knowledge. This of course will be long after our deaths. I find it so very interesting how much personal opinion is passed off as doctrine. This is quite evident from simply reading the posts on this forum. No wonder that so many of our brothers and sisters of other faiths are confused about what we believe. There is only one doctrine of Jesus Christ and it is not subject to private interpretation. The problem is that so many believe their opinion to be doctrine. We would do well to be as sure as possible of our statements before we post and when any uncertainty at all is present, simply state it as opinion. Contention is of the devil, and he laughs when we contend with anyone. There are about 15,000,000 members of the church today and just about that many understandings. My depth of understanding today is far greater than it was 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, yet at each of those times I thought I had a solid understanding of the doctrines of the church. How foolish of me as I now begin to understand how little I really understood then and now recognize how much more there is to learn. This has especially been brought home to me over the past few months in attending the Temple and there receiving personal revelation on doctrinal issues that I never before had considered and that I had never before heard taught, but when I search the scripture there it is. These things cannot be talked about because they have not been made available to the church by a prophet and so must be held close. My point my brothers and sisters is please seek for truth before we respond on an open forum, even if you think you know the answer.

Jerry

[McLainDow]

My response to this is if someone is going to take something a poster on site says as doctrine and not do the work needed to seek the truth then that person is probably going to go through mortality confused about doctrine no matter what. They have their agency and can be spiritually lazy if the choose.

[gfchase]

My response to this is if someone is going to take something a poster on site says as doctrine and not do the work needed to seek the truth then that person is probably going to go through mortality confused about doctrine no matter what. They have their agency and can be spiritually lazy if the choose.

Not to be harsh here but does that not make you or anyone else here spiritually lazy if you post false doctrine, when with a few minutes of research you could be accurate with your posts???

Jerry

[Quin]

Most people, myself included, are pretty good about saying "in my understanding, from what I see one of the things, in my experience, from what I've observed, according to XYZ source," etc.

But this is an open forum.

We're not publishing, here.

There's no editor to double check our statements.

Nor are we writing them under any kind of official umbrella.

We're chatting.

And debating.

And questioning.

And seeking better understanding.

And sharing our own understanding.

An open RELIGIOUS forum.

Which means that most of the above is on religious matters.

If all of us waited until we had a perfect understanding of truth...the forum would be empty.

No discourse necessary.

Q

[Guest]

Respectfully, gfchase, just yesterday I read something that you posted with your interpretation, stating that yours is the right one, and wondered if you had anything to back your opinion on the matter up. I hope we all do our best, and as (volunteer) moderators we try watch for outright false doctrine and definitely anti. . . but as McLain said, this IS a forum, and hopefully people are using much more than this resource for truth seeking.

[skippy740]

The BASIC doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are so simple that even a child of 8 can understand them sufficient to be baptized, but the more we learn the more confusion as to what is doctrine comes creeping in. We all learn line upon line , precept, upon precept, here a little and there a little until we eventually come if we are worthy, to a full understanding of all Fathers knowledge. This of course will be long after our deaths. I find it so very interesting how much personal opinion is passed off as doctrine. This is quite evident from simply reading the posts on this forum. No wonder that so many of our brothers and sisters of other faiths are confused about what we believe. There is only one doctrine of Jesus Christ and it is not subject to private interpretation. The problem is that so many believe their opinion to be doctrine. We would do well to be as sure as possible of our statements before we post and when any uncertainty at all is present, simply state it as opinion. Contention is of the devil, and he laughs when we contend with anyone. There are about 15,000,000 members of the church today and just about that many understandings. My depth of understanding today is far greater than it was 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, yet at each of those times I thought I had a solid understanding of the doctrines of the church. How foolish of me as I now begin to understand how little I really understood then and now recognize how much more there is to learn. This has especially been brought home to me over the past few months in attending the Temple and there receiving personal revelation on doctrinal issues that I never before had considered and that I had never before heard taught, but when I search the scripture there it is. These things cannot be talked about because they have not been made available to the church by a prophet and so must be held close. My point my brothers and sisters is please seek for truth before we respond on an open forum, even if you think you know the answer.

Jerry

The doctrines of the church ARE simple.

So is using the [Enter] key to use paragraphs to be understood.

Please use paragraphs so YOU can be better read and understood. :)

[gfchase]

Respectfully, gfchase, just yesterday I read something that you posted with your interpretation, stating that yours is the right one, and wondered if you had anything to back your opinion on the matter up. I hope we all do our best, and as (volunteer) moderators we try watch for outright false doctrine and definitely anti. . . but as McLain said, this IS a forum, and hopefully people are using much more than this resource for truth seeking.

I understand that it is a forum. I have been on many. When someone says that it is their opinion, that is understandable, but unfortunately much is posted as doctrine that is incorrect. There are many non members that read here and it would be good if we present accuracy when with 5 minutes of research we could. As for my posts you may rest assured that I am virtually always doctrinally correct. I do not post what I cannot back up. Do I really expect people to change their habits? Not really. This is just wishful thinking.

Jerry

[Suzie]

I understand that it is a forum. I have been on many. When someone says that it is their opinion, that is understandable, but unfortunately much is posted as doctrine that is incorrect.

Sometimes people forget or sometimes they just want to say it that way, what I usually do is kindly ask the poster for the source of the information provided, if I have one that contradicts their statement then I bring it into the discussion for analysis, if they cannot provide one because they heard it "from an uncle who told his cousin who told a missionary that a general authority once said in their ward that..." then I point out it is just a rumor, speculation or just their opinion.

As for my posts you may rest assured that I am virtually always doctrinally correct.

But you are just a stranger on the internet so people should still search if what you are sharing is doctrinally correct.

[gfchase]

Suzie - You are right I am a stranger here and you do not know me, so I invite all who have a desire to look up anything I say, to do so. Please never accept anything I or anyone else says on face value no matter how well you may know them. Anyone can be wrong. I am though very careful about what I post because I do believe it is important to be accurate.

Jerry

Edited February 23, 2014 by gfchase

[Leah]

The BASIC doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are so simple that even a child of 8 can understand them sufficient to be baptized, but the more we learn the more confusion as to what is doctrine comes creeping in. We all learn line upon line , precept, upon precept, here a little and there a little until we eventually come if we are worthy, to a full understanding of all Fathers knowledge. This of course will be long after our deaths. I find it so very interesting how much personal opinion is passed off as doctrine. This is quite evident from simply reading the posts on this forum. No wonder that so many of our brothers and sisters of other faiths are confused about what we believe. There is only one doctrine of Jesus Christ and it is not subject to private interpretation. The problem is that so many believe their opinion to be doctrine. We would do well to be as sure as possible of our statements before we post and when any uncertainty at all is present, simply state it as opinion. Contention is of the devil, and he laughs when we contend with anyone. There are about 15,000,000 members of the church today and just about that many understandings. My depth of understanding today is far greater than it was 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, yet at each of those times I thought I had a solid understanding of the doctrines of the church. How foolish of me as I now begin to understand how little I really understood then and now recognize how much more there is to learn. This has especially been brought home to me over the past few months in attending the Temple and there receiving personal revelation on doctrinal issues that I never before had considered and that I had never before heard taught, but when I search the scripture there it is. These things cannot be talked about because they have not been made available to the church by a prophet and so must be held close. My point my brothers and sisters is please seek for truth before we respond on an open forum, even if you think you know the answer.

Jerry

I am not sure I am correctly understanding what you posted about personal revelation. It reads as though you are saying you know things about doctrine that have never been taught by the church, nor have been revealed to the prophet to share with others?

[Anddenex]

Jerry,

This forum provides a unique experience for all of us. The one thing that attracted me to this site is the brilliant minded individuals who have thoroughly studied Church doctrines. All of which are able to provide backing for the reason why they share and believe the doctrine to be as such, and I thought, I want to be a part of this. I also recognized that people are willing to share their personal opinion, and at times, these discussions get heated.

We have also, individuals who are learning the basics in the gospel. They share what they know, what they understand as doctrinal truth, which they have every right to share. As they become more studied, they may look back and think, as you once did ("yet at each of those times I thought I had a solid understanding of the doctrines of the church. How foolish of me as I now begin to understand how little I really understood then and now recognize how much more there is to learn."), that they didn't really understand but now know. I don't think these individuals should be inhibited from sharing their thoughts because that is a part of growth in the gospel. We share, and then someone wise/more studied, may be able to provide us with a correct understanding. However, they would not learn, or be corrected, if they weren't willing to share in the first place.

The most we can do is share what we understand to be doctrinal truths...and then let people govern themselves.

[pam]

In many ways I have to agree with gfchase.

It surprises me to no end how so many opinions come up regarding basic principles of the gospel on this forum.

While yes this is a forum, you might be surprised to find out how many times lds.net comes up in a google search when people search key words or phrases. Unfortunately, many who are trying to understand some of what we believe will use what is said on an LDS forum as fact based because well...it's an LDS forum so it should be correct right?

I always try pretty hard to state "in my opinion" or "it's my understanding" so people don't take what I have to say as fact if I'm not entirely sure of my answer.

But many don't and that can lead to people taking what is said on lds.net as fact because again, it is an LDS based forum.

We do want to make sure that anything we say regarding our beliefs are accurate and fact based.

[Drpepper]

If people are seeking pure doctrine go to LDS.org.

Yes there are many here using the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

[Palerider]

I am not sure I am correctly understanding what you posted about personal revelation. It reads as though you are saying you know things about doctrine that have never been taught by the church, nor have been revealed to the prophet to share with others?

I wondered the same thing.

[pam]

If people are seeking pure doctrine go to LDS.org.

Yes there are many here using the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

The problem with lds.org is that it totally caters to those who are already LDS. So for a new person or an investigator it can come off as not too friendly.

The church is aware of that and are working to come up with a more user friendly lds.org for those seeking to learn. As to how I know this. I work full time in the LDS website and social media community and have many contacts who ask the opinions of the admins of LDS based websites and facebook pages.

Don't get me wrong. LDS.org is a wonderful place for resources. That I agree on..but not always the best place for a new investigator to start out.

[Palerider]

The problem with lds.org is that it totally caters to those who are already LDS. So for a new person or an investigator it can come off as not too friendly.

The church is aware of that and are working to come up with a more user friendly lds.org for those seeking to learn. As to how I know this. I work full time in the LDS website and social media community and have many contacts who ask the opinions of the admins of LDS based websites and facebook pages.

Don't get me wrong. LDS.org is a wonderful place for resources. That I agree on..but not always the best place for a new investigator to start out.

I thought that was the purpose of Mormon.org ?

[pam]

I thought that was the purpose of Mormon.org ?

Exactly. I would be recommending mormon.org to investigators or new members before lds.org.

[gfchase]

I am not sure I am correctly understanding what you posted about personal revelation. It reads as though you are saying you know things about doctrine that have never been taught by the church, nor have been revealed to the prophet to share with others?

Not that these things have not been revealed to the prophets but that the prophets have not revealed them to the church. I am in a hurry now and if necessary will find the references that if we are worthy we can receive that which is not been given to the church for our own learning and edification but we have no right to share it with others and if we do the Lord will cease to teach us further. Also if we are worthy we may have the Lord himself to teach us. We need not be a prophet.

Jerry

[Drpepper]

gfchase the bottom line is forums are forums. Here you will find the intellectual, the lonely, the Dr, the unemployed, the religious zealot, the occasional, the desperate, the uneducated, the seeker of truth, the seeker of contention, the broken hearted, the lost, the found, the convert, the apostate, the righteous, the wicked, the professor, the painter.

If you had really read through this forum you would have realised that not everyone post here looking for truth, some just seek to be heard, understood, to share, to laugh, to cry, to reach out, to comfort, to let out. That is what a forum is.

There is as much truth and personal opinion to be found here as there is in a High Priests class on Sunday.

[Lakumi]

gfchase the bottom line is forums are forums. Here you will find the intellectual, the lonely, the Dr, the unemployed, the religious zealot, the occasional, the desperate, the uneducated, the seeker of truth, the seeker of contention, the broken hearted, the lost, the found, the convert, the apostate, the righteous, the wicked, the professor, the painter.

If you had really read through this forum you would have realised that not everyone post here looking for truth, some just seek to be heard, understood, to share, to laugh, to cry, to reach out, to comfort, to let out. That is what a forum is.

There is as much truth and personal opinion to be found here as there is in a High Priests class on Sunday.

you forgot "doll collecting weirdo"

[skippy740]

There is as much truth and personal opinion to be found here as there is in a High Priests class on Sunday.

I will disagree with this particular statement.

Typically, at church, we don't get into heated debates as we do in forums.

There's a lot more freedom of expression in forums than there is in Sunday School.

[Drpepper]

I will disagree with this particular statement.

Typically, at church, we don't get into heated debates as we do in forums.

There's a lot more freedom of expression in forums than there is in Sunday School.

Not sure about your ward, but your welcome to join me in High Priests on Sunday. :)

More emphasis on the personal opinions than heated debates, although sometimes.......

[Maureen]

I understand that it is a forum. I have been on many. When someone says that it is their opinion, that is understandable, but unfortunately much is posted as doctrine that is incorrect.

Hi Jerry,

But what about doctrine that is not spelled out explicitly and it lets the member interpret it; with help from God?

There are many non members that read here and it would be good if we present accuracy when with 5 minutes of research we could.

I wouldn't worry about the non members; we are just as able to find answers through authoritative sources.

As for my posts you may rest assured that I am virtually always doctrinally correct. I do not post what I cannot back up.

Understanding doctrine also requires interpretation. How do you know your interpretation is correct? LDS doctrine can also evolve. Take for example the Tithing thread; you may find an explanation for tithing defining tithing one way, while I can find an explanation defining tithing slightly differently. Who's right?

M.

[Leah]

Not that these things have not been revealed to the prophets but that the prophets have not revealed them to the church. I am in a hurry now and if necessary will find the references that if we are worthy we can receive that which is not been given to the church for our own learning and edification but we have no right to share it with others and if we do the Lord will cease to teach us further. Also if we are worthy we may have the Lord himself to teach us. We need not be a prophet.

Jerry

And how do you know that they have been revealed to the prophets?

Why would the prophets be asked to withhold this information, while at the same time it is being revealed to others?

[gfchase]

Leah - After posting that statement last night I left home and did not return until late. I thought about it and wished that I had phrased it a little differently and I realized that I might get your first question from someone. It might be possible, though I think very unlikely that a revelation might come to an individual before a prophet. It makes no sense to me that that might be the case but I cannot prove it. I do know that prophets receive revelation but are sometimes told to withhold it from the world. We need look no further that the Book of Mormon to find several instances of this. If a revelation did come to an individual first, it would not be their right to divulge it for what is meant for the world ALWAYS comes through a prophet.

A particular personal revelation that I received came after a long period of contemplation. I had found nothing in scripture or in the words of prophets to either support or disprove a common teaching that simply did not make sense to me. While in the temple an answer came that made perfect sense and when I went back to the scriptures the answers were there when read in light of what I had been given, but I do not believe that I would have ever come to that understanding without revelation. In this case members have read assorted scriptures and come to conclusions that are wrong because the combination of verses are easily misunderstood and when I understood, it filled my soul with ah and thanksgiving. In this case I cannot possibly imagine that the Prophet did not know. This teaching is something that does not affect our salvation one way or the other.

Jerry

Edited February 24, 2014 by gfchase