Friends of Scouting

[Guest]

Sure; but that's beside the point. As I understood it, your point was that BSA needs to pay salaries that are "competitive" with what corporate America pays. But in corporate America those higher salaries come with a trade-off: it's understood that the buck stops with the executive. If you don't make the institution perform--you're gone.

An 11% drop in profit does not necessarily cause Executives in the private sector to be gone. An 11% drop in Golf Course membership doesn't necessarily cause Golf Course Executives to get fired.

An 11% drop in profit may cause Executives to get laid off to keep the company in the black.

Two different things.

An Executive can be the best worker in the planet but he sells Barbie Dolls. When a temporary shift in the economy happens so that parents buy food instead of Barbies, the Mattel Executive still gets a bonus for keeping sales at 11% drop instead of 20%.

The main complaint would be that BSA is acting like a for-corporation--which its apologists already concede that it's doing.

But I'm not sure BSA should act like a for-profit corporation--either in executive salaries paid, or in (lack of) job security for those executives. In a for-profit corporation you can say "hey, the CEO's only getting a couple of pennies off of every widget sold". But the BSA doesn't sell widgets; it solicits contributions from LDS ward members--thus pre-empting other worthy projects/programs that could be funded by those same dollars.

The Great Salt Lake Council's website proclaims that it currently has just shy of 32,000 adult volunteers. You're telling me that none of those 32,000 individuals could and would do the job--and do it well--for $90K per year? I just don't buy it.

And this is where we disagree. I believe - and I believe this by experience - that ESPECIALLY charitable and government organizations have to be run like Private For-Profit Capitalist businesses. The Private Industry has honed Best Practices for everything - from how much to sell a widget for to how to compensate Board Members and where cost cutting is effective and where cost cutting is just cutting your legs to spite your face.

A Charitable Organization should only be different from a Private Business in the source of their investment monies and how to get those monies. Just because a Private Business gets profit from their investments doesn't mean they waste their resources willy-nilly. It is just as important for Private Businesses to practice best cost principles because they don't survive if they can't undercut competition.

[Guest]

P.S. Just so my position is clear.

I'm not debating whether the BSA Executives are paid more than they are worth. I don't know what they're paid and I don't know what they're worth.

I am debating that saying "BSA Executives shouldn't make more than $100K/year because they're a Charitable Organization" does not make sense. Most Executives make more than $100K/year.

[Just_A_Guy]

And, so that I can be equally clear: I'm not saying "BSA executives shouldn't make more than $100K/year because they're a charitable organization". I'm saying a) "Nonprofits have a particular incentive/responsibility to get the most for their money"; b) "I don't think BSA executives should make more than $100K/year unless it can be demonstrated that it's impossible to get similar competency for less than that amount"; and c) "Because I don't believe that the contingency outlined in b) has been convincingly demonstrated to be the case, I will not contribute as much to FoS as I otherwise might".

Edited February 26, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest]

And, so that I can be equally clear: I'm not saying "BSA executives shouldn't make more than $100K/year because they're a charitable organization". I'm saying a) "Nonprofits have a particular incentive/responsibility to get the most for their money"; b) "I don't think BSA executives should make more than $100K/year unless it can be demonstrated that it's impossible to get similar competency for less than that amount"; and c) "Because I don't believe that the contingency outlined in b) has been convincingly demonstrated to be the case, I will not contribute as much to FoS as I otherwise might".

What's your basis that they should be able to get similar competency for less than that amount (note my husband's 2nd statement above)?

In my opinion, not contributing to FoS because of the salary issue only hurts the program more - because your contribution does not just cover salaries - it goes to all the programs too. I would express my protest in a different manner. Like a media campaign, letter campaign, a dialogue with leadership, or a protest.

[Backroads]

From a former insider's perspective, yes, that FoS money does benefit your Scouts. Just probably not in the direct ways you prefer. Sadly, some of it does go to pay salaries, but that is the nature of the beast. It helps maintenance on a council's camps, it helps with events, etc.

The other downside is that you are in a long line of people being pressured to reach goals.

[Just_A_Guy]

What's your basis that they should be able to get similar competency for less than that amount (note my husband's 2nd statement above)?

My basis is, it's my money. You ("you" here is rhetorical, not directed at you specifically, Anatess) want me to part with it--you convince me. I've worked with too many excellent scouters--many/most of whom work in professions where they doubtless earn far less than $100K/year--to believe that where salaries are concerned the Council couldn't (as they keep reminding us to do) "do more with less".

With regard to your husband's second statement: I'm not quite sure what the implication is here--is it that the hope of attaining the $200K golden prize is necessary to keep scouters in the system for 20-30 years? And if it is--whose decision was it to set up the seniority/hire-from-within system in that way?

In my opinion, not contributing to FoS because of the salary issue only hurts the program more - because your contribution does not just cover salaries - it goes to all the programs too. I would express my protest in a different manner. Like a media campaign, letter campaign, a dialogue with leadership, or a protest.

That may be true--it's certainly the practical calculus that the Church seems to apply--but it doesn't make the BSA right, and if a BSA exec said what you just said it would sound downright thuggish (look, I'm not gonna give--so either you hand your money over to Guido here, or the kid gets it!)

As for the manner of the protest--I figure, I still gave my ten bucks (as opposed to the twenty or fifty or hundred I would have given if I had more faith in the program and if my circumstances allowed a higher donation); and if the local council exec wants to appropriate all of that $10 for his salary then the sin is on his head, not mine.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[mirkwood]

I do not donate to FOS. I donate to the troop in my ward.

[Leah]

We get hounded every year for several weeks "to donate whatever we feel we can spare". We are told each week what the "goal" is (apparently it's not a goal set by the local troop, rather by the officials at the scout office) & we are told each week how "short" our donations fall.

We also get a similar drill about the scouts need donations as we draw nearer to scout camp each summer.

Keep in mind ... it "Scouting" that the donations are for, NOT the young men's organization.

It irritates me & if I could I would avoid Priesthood this time of year ....

We can not outright ask for donations for the young women to help them pay for girls camp each summer, they have to do fund raisers & aren't permitted to use "church functions" or ward newsletters etc in those fund raising efforts ... but scouting does repeatedly.

In my mind, that sends a VERY strong message about ....

You should move the last ward I was in...and join RS. :)

Last year - the new, young - announced that our husbands had received info on FOS in their priesthood meeting and we were to get the information from them. Groovy. That means we single ladies were off the hook - we weren't even to be trusted with the knowledge, much less be asked for our money. The year before that, there was a joint presentation in SS and we were all encouraged to donate.

I haven't heard a thing in the ward I am in this year. But...I am still a woman, so perhaps that is why?

[MarginOfError]

Truthfully, I've never heard anything about Friends of Scouting when at church. It's only ever been brought up at the Courts of Honor. In the ward I grew up in, Courts of Honor and Young Women in Excellence were full-ward affairs, so I guess it was kind of the same thing, but our worship services at least weren't being interrupted with this kind of stuff.

[Leah]

Truthfully, I've never heard anything about Friends of Scouting when at church. It's only ever been brought up at the Courts of Honor. In the ward I grew up in, Courts of Honor and Young Women in Excellence were full-ward affairs, so I guess it was kind of the same thing, but our worship services at least weren't being interrupted with this kind of stuff.

Worship services? I haven't seen anyone post that this was brought up in Sacrament Meeting. Perhaps I missed that.

[Jenamarie]

Truthfully, I've never heard anything about Friends of Scouting when at church. It's only ever been brought up at the Courts of Honor. In the ward I grew up in, Courts of Honor and Young Women in Excellence were full-ward affairs, so I guess it was kind of the same thing, but our worship services at least weren't being interrupted with this kind of stuff.

Lucky you. Thankfully my new ward seems to be pretty mum about Scouting unless you're directly involved in it, but in my old ward it was like a sales pitch every Sunday until they'd met their goal. Announcements in all meetings, 5th Sundays dedicated to it, and even being approached in the hall by the ward Scout leader to ask if you'd submitted your donation yet (with the assumption that, of course, you were going to donate!)

I think the most galling was when I was in the YW's presidency, and our girls had just been told that we would no longer be allowed to do any type of fundraisers for Girls Camp (a few years later that rule was thankfully dropped), and it was going to be all on them and their parents to get them there that year, and then here comes in Mr. Scout Master announcing to us leaders that they were x% away from reaching their goal for fundraising for Scouts, and be sure to donate for the boys!

I understand why some people don't donate.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Jenamarie

[Jenamarie]

Worship services? I haven't seen anyone post that this was brought up in Sacrament Meeting. Perhaps I missed that.

I would interrupting Sunday School and RS/Priesthood for anything other than a cursory announcement as being "interrupting worship services". I come to Gospel Doctrine to learn about gospel doctrine, not to receive a sales pitch. (which is what it felt like in my old ward, the way it was handled)

[Wingnut]

I would interrupting Sunday School and RS/Priesthood for anything other than a cursory announcement as being "interrupting worship services". I come to Gospel Doctrine to learn about gospel doctrine, not to receive a sales pitch. (which is what it felt like in my old ward, the way it was handled)

I'm in that position right now (sales pitch). Our ward mission leader is quite...zealous. He certainly magnifies his calling. But every single week, I get an email from him with a Google Form in it that he expects every ward member to fill out every week, with questions about when we can go out with the missionaries, when we can have them over, who we have ready for them to teach, etc. If he wasn't also my neighbor, I might just mark the emails as spam. Alas, I have a relationship to preserve.

[mnn727]

If people knew how Friends of Scouting funds were spent they would never support them.

My wife's company books travel arrangements for the various big shots in their councils offices. Always First Class flights, 4 Star Hotels, expensive rentals. Its not about scouting, its about supporting an expensive lifestyle.

They will never get a penny from me for 'Friends of Scouting'

Support the local troops, but not the fat cats.

Edited February 26, 2014 by mnn727

[Guest]

If people knew how Friends of Scouting funds were spent they would never support them.

My wife's company books travel arrangements for the various big shots in their regional offices. Always First Class flights, 4 Star Hotels, expensive rentals. Its not about scouting, its about supporting an expensive lifestyle.

They will never get a penny from me for 'Friends of Scouting'

Support the local troops, but not the fat cats.

These are all paid for by BSA?

[mnn727]

We can not outright ask for donations for the young women to help them pay for girls camp each summer, they have to do fund raisers & aren't permitted to use "church functions" or ward newsletters etc in those fund raising efforts ... but scouting does repeatedly.

My ward does, we always donate to both YW's and Scouts for their camps.

Its what the Other line is for on a tithing slip.

The Bishopric takes the total cost of YW's or Scouts camp - subtracts the donations and the fund raising money then divides by the number of girls/boys going to get their final per youth cost.

We also have a number of people that will pay for a girl or boy to go for those that their family can not afford it.

[mnn727]

These are all paid for by BSA?

Yes, paid for with the BSA account.

[pam]

I've seen things regarding FOS in the Sunday program under announcements but never anything announced over the pulpit.

[Palerider]

I donate to FOS but it's an amount that I want to donate. We never ask in priesthood for donations.

[Leah]

I would interrupting Sunday School and RS/Priesthood for anything other than a cursory announcement as being "interrupting worship services". I come to Gospel Doctrine to learn about gospel doctrine, not to receive a sales pitch. (which is what it felt like in my old ward, the way it was handled)

I've never encountered anyone who equated a class or a meeting such as RS with a "worship service".

[notquiteperfect]

To me, the FOS campaign is (one of) the "Frauds of Scouting". So, no, we don't donate money and if we were ever approached that person would get an earful. I figure that with all the *time* my husband has spent over the years involved with scouts (and now me with Cubs, unfortunately) - that is our donation (except that our tithing supports the BSA nonsense as well - but I try not to think about it).

I would need the following answered before I ever changed my mind -

-why are the camps not self-sustaining given how much the boys have to pay to go?

-how is the difference in camps fair to the girls?

-given they can do fundraisers, why do they need more money?

-is the money only going towards what's needed for rank and not every doo-dad that's offered? (can give recent example from my ward - unreal!!!)

-how much do the execs make for a *non-profit organization*?

-how much has been paid out for lawsuits?

-how much of it really goes to the boys?

-how much have you gotten from business donations?

I think it's wrong for this to be brought up over the pulpit or take up time in SS or PH/RS since it has nothing to do with the Gospel and if I were an investigator, a sales pitch at church would be a major turn-off!

Edited February 27, 2014 by notquiteperfect

[MarginOfError]

I've never encountered anyone who equated a class or a meeting such as RS with a "worship service".

"As an illustration of what a typical service looks like, men, women and teenagers speak from the pulpit; sing hymns; offer extemporaneous, not recited, prayers; participate in the sacrament (similar to communion); attend scripture classes and engage in discussion; and share personal faith stories, or “testimonies.”"

Of Chapels and Temples: Explaining Mormon Worship Services

By and large, the Church considers the full 3-hour block to be the weekly worship service (or worship services).

[MarginOfError]

I would need the following answered before I ever changed my mind -

-why are the camps not self-sustaining given how much the boys have to pay to go?

How much are the boys paying? because at $250 a week, Boy Scout camps run a quarter of the cost of commercial camps.

-how is the difference in camps fair to the girls

That's a problem with the LDS Church, not with Scouting.

-given they can do fundraisers, why do they need more money?

As I explained before, the troop fundraisers and the Friends of Scouting campaign fund different parts of the BSA organization. Also, the usual troop fundraisers are not tax deductible, so FOS provides an opportunity to solicit tax deductible donations.

-is the money only going towards what's needed for rank and not every doo-dad that's offered? (can give recent example from my ward - unreal!!!)

I'm not sure what you mean by "every doo-dad," but your allusion to your ward makes me think this is more of a problem in your ward, not the scouting council.

-how much do the execs make for a *non-profit organization*?

We've hashed this out some in the thread already

-how much has been paid out for lawsuits?

I'm not sure why this is relevant. But the short answer is as much as was necessary to protect the organization's interests (as misguided as some of us believe they may be). But that is kind of the price of doing business these days.

-how much of it really goes to the boys?

Directly, nothing from FOS goes to the boys. Please see my post on the first page of this thread.

-how much have you gotten from business donations?

Not enough, obviously. Not that it would matter. Are you really going to begrudge the organization for pursuing every avenue of fundraising available to it?

[notquiteperfect]

How much are the boys paying? because at $250 a week, Boy Scout camps run a quarter of the cost of commercial camps.

In other posts above, it was mentioned that part of the money goes towards maintaining the camps but with how high the fees are, why doesn't that cover it?

That's a problem with the LDS Church, not with Scouting.

OK, so you would advocate the girls pay $250 every year? Mine didn't cost that much and I had a great time!

As I explained before, the troop fundraisers and the Friends of Scouting campaign fund different parts of the BSA organization. Also, the usual troop fundraisers are not tax deductible, so FOS provides an opportunity to solicit tax deductible donations.

Money is money - why would I donate to both especially given the steep salaries in the BSA?

I'm not sure what you mean by "every doo-dad," but your allusion to your ward makes me think this is more of a problem in your ward, not the scouting council.

I don't think it's just my ward that misspends their funds and it doesn't help that councils push all these crazy ribbons, patches, badges, etc.

We've hashed this out some in the thread already

Yes, we have and my point was made.

I'm not sure why this is relevant. But the short answer is as much as was necessary to protect the organization's interests (as misguided as some of us believe they may be). But that is kind of the price of doing business these days.

It's relevant because I'm not giving money to an organization that was stupid in how they've handled things over the years (sexual abuse). Their stupidity in the past does not justify me donating to cover their tail now.

Directly, nothing from FOS goes to the boys. Please see my post on the first page of this thread.

Yes, but I don't think very many know that.

Not enough, obviously. Not that it would matter. Are you really going to begrudge the organization for pursuing every avenue of fundraising available to it?

It would be enough if they cut out the frivolous nonsense! And no, I don't begrudge them going to businesses but since they do, to also go to the families - that seems a bit over the top!

I had great experiences in Young Women so I really wonder why it takes so much more money for the boys to have a great experience as well! Furthermore, not all boys care about scouts yet that is the focus and where the money goes and as stated in other posts, they have more leeway because of it which is a problem in my book.

(the quoting didn't work as planned so responses in blue it is)

Edited February 27, 2014 by notquiteperfect

[Guest]

-how much do the execs make for a *non-profit organization*?

JAG, see this? This is what I'm trying to tell you. Wealth envy is not just a democrat thing.