Can you be a "good" member of the Church and not want to go to church?

[Lakumi]

Yeah when crowds and the like at times make you afraid or even sick, there is no giving yourself up. I don't choose anxiety it is just there.

Boredom can be a thing but its not an issue like anxiety or my lack of understanding of other people.

And obey, obey who?

[The Folk Prophet]

I think this is in GENERAL good advice, but it doesn't apply to all.  When you are drowning, it is not the time to think about serving others.  You can't save anyone until you get out of your own life or death situation.  

 

Mental/emotional health issues, abuse, and other challenges can be applicable to drowning . To be fair, even at my lowest moments I did find small ways to serve and it did help a little, but that was not my focus.  Church meetings can be very hard when you are suffering from major depressive order (for example) and the talks revolve around "square your shoulders and have a positive attitude" that is such a large part of our church culture. 

 

I'm not disagreeing with you exactly, just saying that your advice (along with that of other posters) does not apply to every situation.  

 

I do not think this is valid in the gospel. It is the paradox of this teaching - lose oneself to find oneself, give one's life to save one's life, etc. It is a paradox, and it doesn't seem to make literal sense. But it is gospel truth. We give ourselves up entirely to the Lord and His purposes and only in this manner can we truly find ourselves.

[Lakumi]

My thinking never quite understood that sort of stuff. I think in a very literal sense.

[mnn727]

I detest sitting through boring sacrament meetings with speakers who have not taken the time to prepare properly or simply regurgitate the same pat answers.

 Oh, this is me, 100%. 

I know not all people are good at public speaking but please PLEASE take the time necessary to prepare and don't wait until the last minute or 'wing it'. A 10 minute talk takes much more than 10 minutes to prepare. I think I spent 4 to 5 hours (over the 2 weeks I had) preparing my last talk (which ran 13 minutes)

[The Folk Prophet]

I know not all people are good at public speaking but please PLEASE take the time necessary to prepare and don't wait until the last minute or 'wing it'.

 

I always "wing" my talks, or at the very least wait 'til the last minute to prepare them. :)

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I do not think this is valid in the gospel. It is the paradox of this teaching - lose oneself to find oneself, give one's life to save one's life, etc. It is a paradox, and it doesn't seem to make literal sense. But it is gospel truth. We give ourselves up entirely to the Lord and His purposes and only in this manner can we truly find ourselves.

 

And yet the gospel also teaches us, "Do not run faster than you have strength."   That is what I am talking about.

 

I understand about service, I really do.  I did a series of posts on my blog that I called "Monday Mitzvahs"...which were all about very small acts of service that even someone who is deeply depressed or overwhelmed can do.  Of course, service is a blessing,  

 

The point I disagree with you on is what I see as your oversimplification of the problem.  You can't just say to someone who has a mental disorder "lose yourself and you will feel better" and expect that to be the end of it--just as you would not expect someone with cancer to pray away their illness. Boredom is not the only thing that can make people feel uncomfortable at church.  I think your advice applies in some situations, but not all.  "Do not run faster than you have strength" and many other aspects of the gospel can be applied here as well.

[The Folk Prophet]

And yet the gospel also teaches us, "Do not run faster than you have strength."   That is what I am talking about.

 

I understand about service, I really do.  I did a series of posts on my blog that I called "Monday Mitzvahs"...which were all about very small acts of service that even someone who is deeply depressed or overwhelmed can do.  Of course, service is a blessing,  

 

The point I disagree with you on is what I see as your oversimplification of the problem.  You can't just say to someone who has a mental disorder "lose yourself and you will feel better" and expect that to be the end of it--just as you would not expect someone with cancer to pray away their illness. Boredom is not the only thing that can make people feel uncomfortable at church.  I think your advice applies in some situations, but not all.  "Do not run faster than you have strength" and many other aspects of the gospel can be applied here as well.

 

Why do people keep claiming my statements of gospel principle to be oversimplification? By insinuation you are calling the gospel oversimplified. These were Christ's words, not mine. These are exactly the words that Christ said to those with "mental disorders". I don't remember any, "unless you're depressed" conditionals to His teachings.

 

Of course I agree with not running faster than able, and that each must find the ways that they can serve. But that doesn't diminish the principle.

 

Sorry if I seem defensive. I'm dealing with the same accusation in another thread so my hackles may be raised a bit.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Why do people keep claiming my statements of gospel principle to be oversimplification? By insinuation you are calling the gospel oversimplified. These were Christ's words, not mine. These are exactly the words that Christ said to those with "mental disorders". I don't remember any, "unless you're depressed" conditionals to His teachings.

 

Of course I agree with not running faster than able, and that each must find the ways that they can serve. But that doesn't diminish the principle.

 

Sorry if I seem defensive. I'm dealing with the same accusation in another thread so my hackles may be raised a bit.

 

I can't answer your first question,  However, if I were you, and I were getting this message repeatedly, I would be wondering if there were something to it.  

 

No I am not calling the gospel oversimplified, only your application of it.  There is a difference. 

[The Folk Prophet]

I can't answer your first question,  However, if I were you, and I were getting this message repeatedly, I would be wondering if there were something to it.  

 

No I am not calling the gospel oversimplified, only your application of it.  There is a difference. 

 

There is certainly something to it. But it is as likely as not something about those saying it as it is an incorrect application of what are, actually, very simple principles. The gospel is simple. It is simple to apply. But it is not "over" simple, and a simple application is not "over" simplification.

 

It is very simple. There will never be a time when selfishness is the better choice then selflessness. There may be times when a person's status, either mentally, emotionally, or otherwise, makes it impossible for them to be selfless. But that does not change the principle, nor make a suggested application of the principle an oversimplified approach.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

There will never be a time when selfishness is the better choice then selflessness. 

 

This statement tells me that you are not understanding my point at all.  I didn't say that, or IMO anything remotely close to it.  We can't discuss this if we can't at least try to understand one another.

[The Folk Prophet]

This statement tells me that you are not understanding my point at all.  I didn't say that, or IMO anything remotely close to it.  We can't discuss this if we can't at least try to understand one another.

 

How does that tell you I am not understanding your point? As near as I can tell I basically agreed with your point. ("Of course I agree with not running faster than able, and that each must find the ways that they can serve.") 

 

I didn't say that you said that or anything closely related to it. I said it. It was my original point. ("...stop worrying about yourself. Give yourself up.") What you did say is that my point was an oversimplification. I am trying to point out that I do not think that it is an oversimplification. Are you misunderstanding me?

 

If we simply disagree, we simply disagree. That tends to be my read of it. You think it's an over simplification, I do not. So...we disagree. That does not mean we are not trying to understand one another.

[Lakumi]

There is certainly something to it. But it is as likely as not something about those saying it as it is an incorrect application of what are, actually, very simple principles. The gospel is simple. It is simple to apply. But it is not "over" simple, and a simple application is not "over" simplification.

 

It is very simple. There will never be a time when selfishness is the better choice then selflessness. There may be times when a person's status, either mentally, emotionally, or otherwise, makes it impossible for them to be selfless. But that does not change the principle, nor make a suggested application of the principle an oversimplified approach.

 

but it can be taken as insulting to just tell someone to get over it and go to church (I'll use that as an example) when they have anxiety and social problems.

It is the wrong way to approach someone like that and comes off as uncaring, what works for you doesn't work for me.

[The Folk Prophet]

but it can be taken as insulting to just tell someone to get over it and go to church (I'll use that as an example) when they have anxiety and social problems.

It is the wrong way to approach someone like that and comes off as uncaring, what works for you doesn't work for me.

 

I did not say just get over it. I quoted the words of Jesus. If you're reading "Just get over it" into that I cannot help it. But that is not what I said.

[Lakumi]

I did not say just get over it. I quoted the words of Jesus. If you're reading "Just get over it" into that I cannot help it. But that is not what I said.

Never said you did, otherwise I'd have said it was a quote from you

just some things I have heard in the past and felt it relivant to the conversation

Does Jesus know me personally?

[The Folk Prophet]

Does Jesus know me personally?

 

Yes.

[Lakumi]

Yes.

 

If he knew me, then he would share with me a solution which I could live with, not a blanket as scripture says.

Or is that more things I can only discover in prayer? And how does what one recives in prayer cooperate with scriptures if its different?

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

If we simply disagree, we simply disagree. That tends to be my read of it. You think it's an over simplification, I do not. So...we disagree. That does not mean we are not trying to understand one another.

 

Perhaps you are right.  It is also possible that I am being overly sensitive.  I read it the same way Lakuni does, that you are saying get over it.  I don't think that is what the Savior intended, but it is how I interpret your words--to be fair, not just your words, but many who have said similar things.

 

This is a topic that is close to my heart.  I find church meetings painful more often than not.  I have PTSD*, and things that are said or not said at church trigger me.  It is only because of my love of the Savior, and to be an example to my children that I continue to attend every week.  

 

I do try to serve others.  I make the comments in meetings that I would like to hear.  I try to "do all the right things" but when all is said and done, it is STILL really hard for me to go to church.  I am just getting to a point where I don't dread it anymore, but is still hard.

 

I hope that helps clarify my position a little better.

 

 

 

* I don't say this as an excuse as in "I will always be this way", I'm in therapy, and I am working very hard to heal.  But healing takes time.  Service helps but it is not an overnight solution.

[The Folk Prophet]

Perhaps you are right.  It is also possible that I am being overly sensitive.  I read it the same way Lakuni does, that you are saying get over it.  I don't think that is what the Savior intended, but it is how I interpret your words--to be fair, not just your words, but many who have said similar things.

 

This is a topic that is close to my heart.  I find church meetings painful more often than not.  I have PTSD*, and things that are said or not said at church trigger me.  It is only because of my love of the Savior, and to be an example to my children that I continue to attend every week.  

 

I do try to serve others.  I make the comments in meetings that I would like to hear.  I try to "do all the right things" but when all is said and done, it is STILL really hard for me to go to church.  I am just getting to a point where I don't dread it anymore, but is still hard.

 

I hope that helps clarify my position a little better.

 

 

 

* I don't say this as an excuse as in "I will always be this way", I'm in therapy, and I am working very hard to heal.  But healing takes time.  Service helps but it is not an overnight solution.

 

Thank you for what is a very gracious reply. I understand where you are coming from. And it helps me better explain myself.

 

I do not mean just get over it, nor do I mean that if we give ourselves up that we'll magically be healed. But eventually, with persistence, I think this is the key. Contrary to what some might argue, the church and the gospel has never taught us that we can simply pray away the problems of life. But through the principles and application of the Atonement, we can grow and consistently become more the people that we should be.

 

As for myself, learning to enjoy church took many years. It did not happen overnight. And, as I said, in some ways I also still struggle (though certainly never struggled in the way you describe --- though I do severely struggle with other aspects of life...but that's another thread... :)). For others it may take a life time, or they may never reach the point at all. It is a struggle - and struggle is life.

 

Long-suffering is a gospel principle for a reason. Sometimes, we just have to deal with the fact that we are mortal, and we will face the problems of mortality. But we should do our best to face them with faith, trust, and selflessness.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Thanks Folk Prophet, I understand you better now.  I appreciate you explaining your position.  I will try to remember it the next time I hear something similar at church.  I mean I will remind myself that perhaps there is more intended by their words than I am perceiving.  I think that will be helpful.  

 

Our conversation has inspired some new thoughts for me (besides what I just shared) that could prove to be helpful.  I need some more time to sort them out.  Aside from being triggered, it is difficult to hear the answers that I have heard all my life--things that I did find helpful for other trials (life-threatening health issues, death in the family, bankruptcy, and foreclosure...) ....but those things that felt like a torch light of hope before are but a tiny spark now.  Thus my feeling that you are oversimplifying, but it is me that has changed not the answers . . .  I need to make my peace with that. And those are not answers anyone else can give me. It's something I need to continue to work out with the Lord.

[Lakumi]

I donno, right now in my life (in the here and now) church would be more harmful to me then benificial-the future could change but as of right now the whole social church for a single weird loner just doesn't sound good.

I read my scriptures in solitude and write my thoughts about them and all that. I do my own thing because that's how I've always done things.

Its what I understand and feel happy with.

[Finrock]

Good Afternoon LiterateParakeet. I hope you've been well! =)

 

Mental/emotional health issues, abuse, and other challenges can be applicable to drowning . To be fair, even at my lowest moments I did find small ways to serve and it did help a little, but that was not my focus. Church meetings can be very hard when you are suffering from major depressive order (for example) and the talks revolve around "square your shoulders and have a positive attitude" that is such a large part of our church culture.

I'm not disagreeing with you exactly, just saying that your advice (along with that of other posters) does not apply to every situation.

There is a scripture that I have found meaningful and helpful to me as a survivor of physical and sexual abuse. It is found in the Jacob 5 from the Book of Mormon.

While working in the vineyard (the world) the servant thought to counsel the Master of the Vineyard (Jesus Christ).

 

21 And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: How comest thou hither to plant this tree, or this branch of the tree? For behold, it was the poorest spot in all the land of thy vineyard.

22 And the Lord of the vineyard said unto him: Counsel me not; I knew that it was a poor spot of ground; wherefore, I said unto thee, I have nourished it this long time, and thou beholdest that it hath brought forth much fruit.

23 And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard said unto his servant: Look hither; behold I have planted another branch of the tree also; and thou knowest that this spot of ground was poorer than the first. But, behold the tree. I have nourished it this long time, and it hath brought forth much fruit; therefore, gather it, and lay it up against the season, that I may preserve it unto mine own self.

While those who struggle with mental illness and emotional health might feel at times that their lot in life has been unfair, God knew the ground in which he planted all of His children. But, look how God said that He has continually nourished the plant that was planted in the poor and even the poorest spot. God has not and will not leave us alone in our struggles.

I guess my point in all of this is that despite our individual "little hells" we can be fruitful and grow. In many cases it is precisely the fact that we were planted in the poorest spot that has allowed us to blossom and grow so that we bring forth much fruit. We can have joy in our suffering. God has been and is there. He has always been there and He is not ignorant of the suffering that we suffer. Yet, He asks us to live like the Son lived who did all that was asked of Him even in the midst of the worse suffering of all. The Son has descended all things so that we can overcome all things.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that further in to the chapter of Jacob 5 there is this observation...

 

25 And he said unto the servant: Look hither and behold the last. Behold, this have I planted in a good spot of ground; and I have nourished it this long time, and only a part of the tree hath brought forth tame fruit, and the other part of the tree hath brought forth wild fruit; behold, I have nourished this tree like unto the others.

Being planted in the good spot of ground doesn't guarantee that we will bring forth much fruit, even though God nourishes all the same as He does others.

-Finrock

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Hello Finrock.  

 

That is a great scripture, thanks.  I've always liked Jacob 5, but never thought of that interpretation before.  I like that.

 

I agree with you that there is growth that can come from our personal hell. My book about healing from abuse and rebuilding my relationship with the Savior is in the final round of editing, and I realized with no small amount of chagrin, that in the end the conclusion that I came to i.e. that we can grow from hellish experiences, and that God is there even though sometimes we can't feel Him--is the message that people were trying to tell me all along. 

 

So why did it take me so long to come back to the answer that was there all along (my spiritual red slippers that would bring me home from Oz)?  That is a good question.  I love the Savior, and I love the gospel.  So why is church still so painful?

 

I think I know what the missing pieces (at least for me) are: lack of validation and dissociation.  The next question is what to do with that.  I'll ponder it some more.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Okay--mystery solved.  I can't believe it took me so long to figure this out.  

 

I can explain the reason I felt that Folk Prophet's comment was an "oversimplification".  Let's take the example of losing a loved one, most people have had that experience.  Well-meaning people often say, "He/she is in a better place."  And yet that doesn't help at all.  The person who is grieving knows their loved one is in a better place, but that doesn't resolve the grief.

 

The person who is grieving needs people who will "mourn with those who mourn", and allow them the necessary time to work through their feelings.  However well-intended, "he/she is in a better place" can feel rather dismissive as if the loss doesn't matter because the person who died has gone to a better place.

 

Trauma can be more difficult to work through than a death.  If you doubt that consider this: survivors of trauma can get PTSD, survivors of sexual assault/abuse may struggle with urges to self-harm, suicidal ideation,  dissociative disorders and much more.  For people healing from trauma, many well-intended messages will fall short and perhaps even feel dismissive of their pain, because what they really need is not a "gospel pep talk: (i.e. reminders of things they already know) but someone to mourn with them, to lift up the hands which hang down and strengthen the feeble knees.  Not to someone to cheer them up but  a friend to wipe away their tears.

[heronephi]

I like the Lords question to Adam, "why dost thou offer sacrifice?" Adams reply " I know not save the Lord has commanded me."

In third Nephi the Savior told the Nephites to meat together often.  Sometime the simplest answer is the only answer this is what faith requires of us.

 

There are many Sundays I do not want to go to church.  For many different reasons.  It does not make me anything but human.  But I still go because The Lord commands me to. It is interesting to note I learn something about me and the gospel and my relationship with others each time I am obedient.  I do not know what my being there does for others.  My faithfulness just may be what helps somebody else to be more faithful.  We in our ignorance depend on each other in many different ways, many we do not know about or understand.

[Traveler]

I donno, right now in my life (in the here and now) church would be more harmful to me then benificial-the future could change but as of right now the whole social church for a single weird loner just doesn't sound good.

I read my scriptures in solitude and write my thoughts about them and all that. I do my own thing because that's how I've always done things.

Its what I understand and feel happy with.

Have you considered the possibility that you were in the pre-existence so advanced that in order for your experience here to be meaningful you had to have a challenge suited to your capabilities?  My father would say that it is not the difficulty that makes something seem impossible but our unwillingness to face difficulties.  Or as others have suggested – when the going gets tough; the tough get going.  One other thing my father would say, “Courage is not going on without fear but going on in spite of fear.”