Sin...just how bad is it?

[prisonchaplain]

Just how bad is sin in LDS teaching?  Yes, of course it is disobedience, or, at minimum, a foolish and ignorant inclination towards selfishness and wrong.  When I look at the cost of forgiveness, and at the price of sin, it just seems that the LDS conception of sin is less severe.  After all, if I sin I risk eternal hellfire--separation from God that is eternal and without appeal.  The LDS teaching of 3 heavenly kingdoms, of opportunities for repentance after death, and of Jesus' sacrifice being more or less completed in the Garden, rather than the more dramatic bloodletting on the cross--well to non-LDS eyes and ears, it just all seems serious--but less so.  I'm probably deeply wrong on this, so...let's discuss.

[bytebear]

You cannot repent after death.  If you have not heard of Christ, you will be introduced to Him and have an opportunity to accept the Ordinances of salvation through proxy, but that only applies to those who would have accepted His message on Earth. If you rejected it here, you will reject it there.

 

And although Mormons do not believe in a literal buring for eterntiy, the separation from God is a very real and eternal sorrow.

 

I think the greater point is that sin must be atoned for.  Christ atoned for all of mankind, but if we reject that gift and do not repent, we will atone for that sin.

 

 

 15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

 16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

 17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

 18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

-Doctrine and Covenants 19

[SpiritDragon]

Doctrine and covenants 19:

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

 

I agree that LDS theology has a different take on sin, repentance, punishment, judgment etc. than evangelical christianity does. I think it shows a great deal of respect and insight that although you see our views as less severe that you would ask for discussion rather than simply make up your mind on your own perception of our views.

 

I find this passage of scripture above does a great deal to help explain some of these differences. Essentially we believe that everyone will repent. If they repent in this life than the atonement of Jesus Christ covers them and they need not go through more pain than that required of forsaking evil and offering a pure heart and contrite spirit. As for those who die without the law, we know that they can be taught the gospel and have ordinances performed on their behalf that they are free to choose; yet we know very little about how repentance works outside of this life. As for those who have the gospel in this life, but do not repent... these are clearly who this passage is speaking to (not necessarily exclusively). These will suffer a pain that is incomprehensible to us, essentially putting the Saviour's sacrifice to naught. The suffering endured will meet the demands of Eternal and Endless punishment under the direction of He who is Endless and Eternal, but not lasting indefinitely. I would not want to find myself in this position.

 

It should also be noted that those suffering such will not be going on to exaltation as this would half defeat the need for a savior if we could all just suffer for our own sins. The lesser kingdoms of glory, while no doubt wonderful, do represent a damnation as far as it refers to having a limit on progression. This in contrast to eternal progression in the highest order of Celestial glory and exaltation.

 

A thorough reading of the 76th section of the Doctrine and Covenants helps to paint a more clear picture of the individual kingdoms of glory, or the many mansions prepared for us. Because everyone will acknowledge that Christ is the Lord and be judged by him there will no doubt be regrets within those that are in the lesser kingdoms, but we are given assurances they will be happy places. 

[Lakumi]

Yeah the LDS certainly have a nicer view of the afterlife, one of the nicest.

[Guest]

Sin is very bad, PC. Same as how you see it. The difference is, we believe that those who do wrong without a testimony of the right is not held accountable for what he doesn't know in the same manner as one who knows the truth. Learning doesn't end in death. But knowing the truth and not repenting of actions contrary to truth before death holds a price in the same way that you believe.

[Lakumi]

So if you know, the basics of all that, but don't believe it, are you still held in the same regard as someone who fell away or walked away from it?

[faith4]

So if you know, the basics of all that, but don't believe it, are you still held in the same regard as someone who fell away or walked away from it?

 

Similar to most Christian faiths, what Anatess is saying (I believe) is that God will judge us according to our knowledge, what we truly know in our minds and hearts.   God knows all, there is nothing we can hide from Him.  We are each judged separately for our knowledge and charity towards others. 

[Lakumi]

I understand completely

[prisonchaplain]

I'd suggest, and wonder if some LDS might agree, that we will be judged for what we know in our heads.  That is, we don't get less punishment because we close our hearts to a gospel truth.  If we had heard/understood a clear presentation of truth, then our refusal to consider it will NOT mitigate in our favor. 

[Seminarysnoozer]

I'd suggest, and wonder if some LDS might agree, that we will be judged for what we know in our heads.  That is, we don't get less punishment because we close our hearts to a gospel truth.  If we had heard/understood a clear presentation of truth, then our refusal to consider it will mitigate in our favor. 

We believe that was the test that took place before coming here, what is called the "first estate".  That is where we had all the facts, all the truth before us.  Everyone here chose correctly and therefore will merit a Kingdom of Heaven through the saving grace of Christ.  The test of mortality was meant to take place with minimal information as to reflect our true, primitive nature and drives, "the desire of our heart".

 

Now we face the test of true character, whether we will actually do the thing we said we would or not.  It is a test of integrity, or 'how far would you go?' 

 

We all believe in Christ, we sometimes call this the "light of Christ" and it is ours to ignore as we chose to ignore our spiritual side in this life.  Sin, then is a reflection of character, not a mistake that someone can say, "oops, my bad."  This probationary period we call mortality is the only chance we have to change character, a "change of heart,"  or being born again.  After this, our trajectory is set.

 

I explain it to my children this way; A soldier in boot camp will vow to never leave a fallen soldier behind, they all agree to that standard (like what we agree to in pre-mortal life).  But, in the heat of the battle only some will actually follow through with that standard (integrity - the test of mortality). Just like in this life, only some will actually follow through with their professed belief in the God's plan, to require a Savior, and have enough faith to follow His gospel despite being in the "heat of the battle".

 

So, sin is really bad in terms of it reflecting our true nature, our difficult to change character. It is a deep hole that is difficult to get out of but it can be done through repentence.  

[Traveler]

Just how bad is sin in LDS teaching?  Yes, of course it is disobedience, or, at minimum, a foolish and ignorant inclination towards selfishness and wrong.  When I look at the cost of forgiveness, and at the price of sin, it just seems that the LDS conception of sin is less severe.  After all, if I sin I risk eternal hellfire--separation from God that is eternal and without appeal.  The LDS teaching of 3 heavenly kingdoms, of opportunities for repentance after death, and of Jesus' sacrifice being more or less completed in the Garden, rather than the more dramatic bloodletting on the cross--well to non-LDS eyes and ears, it just all seems serious--but less so.  I'm probably deeply wrong on this, so...let's discuss.

 

In this matter I will speak only for my self.  It seems to me that our experience with sin is a good news bad news kind of thing.  I will use the example of soiled clothing as the example of sin.  The bad news is that sin soils the clothing that is our life - not just our mortal life but our eternal forever life.  Sin does not just look bad on our clothing but it stinks really badly and never goes away.  The good news is that there is a way to wash our clothing.  It is called baptism and is only provided by Jesus Christ who was ordained a High Priest after the Order of Melchizedek.  I believe the only way to get your garments clean is by the single means of baptism provided by Jesus Christ or someone properly acting as the proxy of Christ (example - the apostles ordained to that same order by Jesus).

 

More bad news - There are a lot of counterfeits claiming to be able to get our clothing clean but despite claims (some very exotic or emotional claims) - just will not work.  The good news is that temples have been build so that everyone, regardless of time and place can get their clothing  washed with the one baptism that works.

[Guest]

I'd suggest, and wonder if some LDS might agree, that we will be judged for what we know in our heads.  That is, we don't get less punishment because we close our hearts to a gospel truth.  If we had heard/understood a clear presentation of truth, then our refusal to consider it will mitigate in our favor. 

 

PC, we believe in the Light of Christ.  Like Seminary said, we chose to follow Christ in pre-mortal life... that's why we're here.  Everyone that is born on earth, then, is born with the Light of Christ.

 

Therefore, if you are born in the remote mountains of the Cordilleras and lived in a primitive village that has never heard of Christ, nor the Bible, nor anything about a one true God, you are not going to be "exempt" from judgement.  Because, even in your primitive village, you are still exercising free agency to follow that Light of Christ within you - a universal truth.  But, because you lived and died without having been taught of the gospel of Christ, nor had the opportunity to be baptized to accept Christ as your Savior, you do not lose that opportunity just because you died before hearing it.  Your deeds in mortality will be judged according to the Light of Christ, and you will progress in the Spirit World, accepting Christ as your Savior, repent, get baptized and confirmed and gain an eternal companion, etc... even after death.  But, if you rejected that Light of Christ within you, then you will be judged accordingly as well...

 

Now, what if you had the opportunity to hear of truth and you closed your heart to it?  Well, if the Light of Christ within you prompted you to listen and you rejected that prompting, you will be judged accordingly.

 

Now, what if you had the opportunity to hear of truth from the AoG and the LDS both?  And you went with the AoG because that is what you believe is the truth?  Well, you have that testimony of truth and you will be judged accordingly... because, it doesn't matter if it's an AoG or LDS missionary testifying that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.  That truth remains true regardless of the religious affiliation of those who says it...

 

But what if you gained a testimony of the truth of the restored gospel and the authority of the Priesthood of the LDS Church but you chose to reject that testimony and went with AoG because they give you cookies and coffee before church service?   You will be judged accordingly as well...

[prisonchaplain]

I did learn something in this thread--that LDS teaching about pre-mortal existence includes the belief that all humans born "chose Christ" beforehand.  That understandings does answer the question of those who have never heard.  It also helps me better understand the 3 kingdoms--especially the Telestial one. Many thanks!

[prisonchaplain]

But what if you gained a testimony of the truth of the restored gospel and the authority of the Priesthood of the LDS Church but you chose to reject that testimony and went with AoG because they give you cookies and coffee before church service?   You will be judged accordingly as well...

 

You don't get the cookies and coffee until AFTER the service.  :-)

[Guest]

You don't get the cookies and coffee until AFTER the service.  :-)

 

Well, in that case, they should've gone to the LDS Church then ran to the AoG to grab their cookies... and hopefully convince the minister to offer hot chocolate!  Best of both worlds... :-)

[Lakumi]

Well, in that case, they should've gone to the LDS Church then ran to the AoG to grab their cookies... and hopefully convince the minister to offer hot chocolate!  Best of both worlds... :-)

well maybe they didn't like the atmosphere or beliefs. People have all sorts of reasons for leaving or changing a church, and I don't often hear of malicious reasons.

I've never heard of reasons of food.

[Guest]

well maybe they didn't like the atmosphere or beliefs. People have all sorts of reasons for leaving or changing a church, and I don't often hear of malicious reasons.

I've never heard of reasons of food.

 

The scenario was that the person gained a testimony of the truth of the restored gospel (restored by Joseph Smith) and the authority of the Priesthood of the LDS Church.  When one gains a testimony of this, the atmosphere becomes a test to see how you follow through with that testimony for which one can be judged.

 

It is the difference between a Covenant People and those that just follow along depending on where the wind blows.

[Lakumi]

The scenario was that the person gained a testimony of the truth of the restored gospel (restored by Joseph Smith) and the authority of the Priesthood of the LDS Church.  When one gains a testimony of this, the atmosphere becomes a test to see how you follow through with that testimony for which one can be judged.

 

It is the difference between a Covenant People and those that just follow along depending on where the wind blows.

 

Yeah I understand-I was being far more broad

[prisonchaplain]

Well, in that case, they should've gone to the LDS Church then ran to the AoG to grab their cookies... and hopefully convince the minister to offer hot chocolate!  Best of both worlds... :-)

 

Honest bishop, when the minister said, "Well, we have mochas," how was I to know that was an espresso with chocolate????

[Traveler]

Honest bishop, when the minister said, "Well, we have mochas," how was I to know that was an espresso with chocolate????

 

What do you think - is it a sin to reject any truth; regardless of source?  or is it only a sin if certain specific truths of particular religious stripe are rejected?

 

And what does it mean to reject a truth - could rejection include the intent to put it off until later?

[The Folk Prophet]

This is an interesting subject PC, and I've been doing some consideration on it lately, but without a lot of personal insight as of yet. In some ways there seems to be a level of playing down the severity of sin in LDS theology in the idea of everyone being saved but the sons of perdition (of which there will be, theoretically, few from mortality). In some circles much of the nasty warnings in the Book of Mormon spoken to those who sin are accounted only to the sons of perdition as well. I wonder about that, mostly in that the theme of "watch out or be cast off" is very consistent through the scriptures, and it seems strange to constantly repeat a strong and dire warning if only a relative few are really ever in danger of said punishment.

 

We do know that those who do not accept Christ and sin on any level without repentance will be required to pay for their sins -- and that payment comes prior to the assignment of a kingdom of glory -- and it will the full measure of hell (though we do not believe in literal fire...but the agony -- yeah...that we believe in). How long our stay in this hell will be prior to moving on to glory is unknown, I think, though it is likely relative to the sins committed. Not sure on that, actually.

 

That being said, I think that in the end when one finds themselves in a lower kingdom than one could have attained if only -- well, I believe personally that that will constitute its own level of agony that in some ways may be less bearable than the 'hell' that came before. As pointed out, we all came here with a hope in Christ, having chosen Him, and with the great desire to become more like Him through the great plan of salvation. When we come back to ourselves and learn that we have failed in that regard......

 

Oh...and as to the bloodletting on the cross vs. the garden... Mankind likes to envision horror in terms that it understand. Mankind can relate to the horror of hanging from a cross with nails in one's hands. So it is easy to relate to the drama. The suffering Christ had in the garden, on the other hand, is incomprehensible. The agony He felt when He took upon Himself the suffering of the world.... The pain of hanging from the cross was likely nothing relative to that. Death and physical suffering is, in the eternal scheme of things, probably fairly insignificant. I do not mean to say that in terms of lacking compassion to that end, but only theoretically. The scriptures use the example of a woman travailing in childbirth. It is but a short moment of suffering to a greater joy and purpose. So is the physical pain of life in many ways. But the pain of suffering from sin is a much weightier pain that will constitutes the reality of hell.

[Seminarysnoozer]

What do you think - is it a sin to reject any truth; regardless of source?  or is it only a sin if certain specific truths of particular religious stripe are rejected?

 

And what does it mean to reject a truth - could rejection include the intent to put it off until later?

If a 16 year old catholic young woman (for example) encountered the missionaries and was invited to hear the discussions but remembers her parents instructions to 'not listen to anything those missionaries tell you' and therefore turns away the missionaries invitation, is that a sin or not?

 

Boy, that is a tough one.  I think it is way too complicated for us to say one way or the other.  She is honoring her parents by following their instructions and yet turning away greater truths.  I think it depends on a lot of factors that we are not privy to.  For example, if she was one to burn away her light of Christ by engaging in certain behaviors before that encounter then maybe she missed the promptings of the Holy Ghost at that moment that would have told her what to do.  There are way to many factors to make a blanket statement about such things because we really do not see all the circumstances, history and spiritual ability of any given individual, but God can see those things and make a judgement.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Just how bad is sin in LDS teaching?  Yes, of course it is disobedience, or, at minimum, a foolish and ignorant inclination towards selfishness and wrong.  When I look at the cost of forgiveness, and at the price of sin, it just seems that the LDS conception of sin is less severe.  After all, if I sin I risk eternal hellfire--separation from God that is eternal and without appeal.  The LDS teaching of 3 heavenly kingdoms, of opportunities for repentance after death, and of Jesus' sacrifice being more or less completed in the Garden, rather than the more dramatic bloodletting on the cross--well to non-LDS eyes and ears, it just all seems serious--but less so.  I'm probably deeply wrong on this, so...let's discuss.

 

PC, although we don't believe in hell fire, we do believe in separation from God.  Although we don't remember Him know, we knew God as our Father before we came here we knew him well and loved Him.  Imagine the pain that most people have when their earthly parents die.  Being eternally separated from our Heavenly Father sounds a like a very serious punishment to me!  

 

And because we have all sinned, we are all endanger of being eternally separated from our Father.  Without Christ we would be lost.

 

I love the Three Degrees of Glory.  I remember as a child (I was not raised in the church), I attended several different churches and I learned about heaven and hell.  I remember wondering where I would end up.  I didn't think I was bad enough to go to hell, and yet I wondered if I was a good as people that would go to heaven.  Where is the line drawn, I wondered?

 

Then one day I heard a preacher talking about taking Christ into your heart and inviting people to come forward and be baptized.  I thought I had found the answer to not going to hell!  So I went forward, but naturally they said I couldn't be baptized without my parents permission.  

 

My mom asked me to attend the LDS church first, but then I could make my own choice.  I attended the LDS church for awhile, and learned about the three degrees of glory.  I loved that idea.  And the rest is history.  :)

[Traveler]

If a 16 year old catholic young woman (for example) encountered the missionaries and was invited to hear the discussions but remembers her parents instructions to 'not listen to anything those missionaries tell you' and therefore turns away the missionaries invitation, is that a sin or not?

 

Boy, that is a tough one.  I think it is way too complicated for us to say one way or the other.  She is honoring her parents by following their instructions and yet turning away greater truths.  I think it depends on a lot of factors that we are not privy to.  For example, if she was one to burn away her light of Christ by engaging in certain behaviors before that encounter then maybe she missed the promptings of the Holy Ghost at that moment that would have told her what to do.  There are way to many factors to make a blanket statement about such things because we really do not see all the circumstances, history and spiritual ability of any given individual, but God can see those things and make a judgement.

 

I had hoped that for an example one might see something closer to their own home.  We are stewards that have dominion, gifts, callings or talents or what ever one may refer to our life journey.   As stewards; are we eating healthy and pursuing healthy life styles both in regards to spiritual and physical health.  Are we wise stewards of the wealth we have been given or do we adorn ourselves with fine clothing, comfortable dwellings and tech stuff beyond our "needs".  Do we seek understanding and wisdom in the "best books" of science, politics, economics, entertainment and religion or do we entertain and enlighten ourselves on a diet of the talents of others contributing little or nothing ourselves.

 

It seems to me that the nature of the "natural man" is to see and catalog well the sin of others, not just as individuals but as social, political or some other category, however so small the effects of such sins and then to diminish to near nothing the effects (however so prominent) our own, regardless of what impact such has on ourselves and those around us.

 

In essence we all think we will be saved in heaven from our own sins and that others, whoever they may be - just not us; will be damned forever in some hell or kingdom less than Celestial.

 

I do not know about everybody else but I am very concerned and my best plan is to beg as much as possible for any mercy or leniency possible - for me an everybody I know.

[Blackmarch]

Just how bad is sin in LDS teaching?  Yes, of course it is disobedience, or, at minimum, a foolish and ignorant inclination towards selfishness and wrong.  When I look at the cost of forgiveness, and at the price of sin, it just seems that the LDS conception of sin is less severe.  After all, if I sin I risk eternal hellfire--separation from God that is eternal and without appeal.  The LDS teaching of 3 heavenly kingdoms, of opportunities for repentance after death, and of Jesus' sacrifice being more or less completed in the Garden, rather than the more dramatic bloodletting on the cross--well to non-LDS eyes and ears, it just all seems serious--but less so.  I'm probably deeply wrong on this, so...let's discuss.

sin will get you burnt. if you do not accept christ (or choose something else to be more important than him) to any degree you will suffer even as he has suffered. then at the end of the last resurrection if you still choose to want sin over God and Christ, then you will be exiled to the outer darkness where its even worse.