Repentance, Forgiveness and Mercy vs Karma

[Traveler]

First I will apologize for starting a thread and then riding off into the sunset for a spell.  But the expression of this thread has been on my mind for a while and I wanted to get it out in the forum.  Though I will be quite tied up, I will endeavor to take time to peek in but it is not likely I will be able to think through my responses as well as I should.

 

Okay – here is the question.  How much is changed through repentance?  I believe the answer is that we receive blessings.  But are the blessings the same, better, or less than if we had remained faithful?  Let me give one possible example.  Let us suppose that at general conference President Monson asks us all to read the Book of Mormon over the next 6 months and that if we will complete the task we will be granted special (or additional) blessings of peace and prosperity through difficult times coming.  We then start out reading but by time we get to 2nd Nephi we are occupied by other things and do not complete the task within the requested 6 months.  Thus we lose the blessing we were promised by President Monson.  But then a year later as things become difficult in our lives we repent and over the following year complete a reading of the Book of Mormon.  Should we now expect the same blessings that were initially promised?

 

We can also think of scenarios concerning callings, paying tithing, living the word of wisdom, speaking ill of the L-rd’s anointed, keeping the Sabbath holy and many other things.  I am thinking that if we are disobedient we lose blessings.  That by repenting we may qualify for new blessings but blessings lost from disobedience are in essence blessings lost and that karma may affect us moving forward in mortality and possibly even our treasures in Heaven – such as family relationships?

[mdfxdb]

D&C 130: 20-21

[FunkyTown]

I love Karma. Karma lets me go around and treat everyone like poop.

 

With Karma, I can assume they must have done something to deserve it.

[The Folk Prophet]

Repentance

Forgiveness

Mercy

Karma

 

[Blackmarch]

I love Karma. Karma lets me go around and treat everyone like poop.

 

With Karma, I can assume they must have done something to deserve it.

it also means you'll be getting poop back too lol.

[Palerider]

Kinda like a boomerang .....what you throw out there will come right back to you.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I love Karma. Karma lets me go around and treat everyone like poop.

 

With Karma, I can assume they must have done something to deserve it.

 

Interesting interpretation...but remember the Christian version of Karma is  "As you sow, so shall ye reap"...

 

So some of that poop might be coming back at you.  

 

So for the hijack, Traveler.  

 

I think in your question about reading the scriptures you forfeit the blessings for the time you didn't do it, but receive them when you do. :)  But your question "how much is changed through repentance?" is a much deeper question.  Consider sins that hurt other people...repentance does not undo the damage caused.  I don't know that answer, because I do believe in repentance, but clearly repentance can't always make it as if the sin never occurred.  The consequences are still there . . .

[Guest]

Define blessings...

 

A lot of times, people think of blessings as totally separate from the action.  Like the American kid soccer trophy.  Blessings are a lot of times consequences of actions.  So, if you don't act, you don't get the blessings.  If you act, then you get the blessings.  Would it be better/the same/worse than the blessing you would have received had you followed it the first time?  Depends on the action and the time.  If you receive confirmation that the church is true but you delayed baptism because you didn't want to quit smoking and you get hit by a Mack truck and died... that would be much different than if you got baptized the day you received confirmation... and much different than if you never received confirmatoin that the church is true...

 

But the blessings are there, regardless of whether you started laboring at the vineyard at sunrise or at sunset...

 

[Seminarysnoozer]

First I will apologize for starting a thread and then riding off into the sunset for a spell.  But the expression of this thread has been on my mind for a while and I wanted to get it out in the forum.  Though I will be quite tied up, I will endeavor to take time to peek in but it is not likely I will be able to think through my responses as well as I should.

 

Okay – here is the question.  How much is changed through repentance?  I believe the answer is that we receive blessings.  But are the blessings the same, better, or less than if we had remained faithful?  Let me give one possible example.  Let us suppose that at general conference President Monson asks us all to read the Book of Mormon over the next 6 months and that if we will complete the task we will be granted special (or additional) blessings of peace and prosperity through difficult times coming.  We then start out reading but by time we get to 2nd Nephi we are occupied by other things and do not complete the task within the requested 6 months.  Thus we lose the blessing we were promised by President Monson.  But then a year later as things become difficult in our lives we repent and over the following year complete a reading of the Book of Mormon.  Should we now expect the same blessings that were initially promised?

 

We can also think of scenarios concerning callings, paying tithing, living the word of wisdom, speaking ill of the L-rd’s anointed, keeping the Sabbath holy and many other things.  I am thinking that if we are disobedient we lose blessings.  That by repenting we may qualify for new blessings but blessings lost from disobedience are in essence blessings lost and that karma may affect us moving forward in mortality and possibly even our treasures in Heaven – such as family relationships?

I think the story of the prodigal son suggests that it is never too late to come back and be a part of everything the Father has. Even though the prodigal son spent his inheritance he was accepted back into a full inheritance again.

 

Loss would occur if the character of the person remained in an awful state of being.  We are judged by where we end up not necesarily how we got there.  If 2 people die with their heart single to the glory of God and learned to love their neighbor as their self and were in that state of being when they died then they will receive similar blessings even if one of them took a little longer to have the change of heart.

 

Think of the greatness of the son of Alma even though he sought to destroy the church in his early years. I think his path allowed him to counsel his sons in a way that even gives us greater understanding of the process.  In other words, his folly in his youth and that history allowed him to be able to counsel those that had similar struggles a little more specifically, the process became a blessing for them and for us as we read his stories.  For example, his wisdom related to this process; Alma 41; " 5 The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.

 6 And so it is on the other hand. If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days, even so he shall be rewarded unto righteousness."

 

The desire is the most important aspect of the process, not how many times one has fallen or how long it takes to get up from the fall.

[Teancum]

I think the story of the prodigal son suggests that it is never too late to come back and be a part of everything the Father has. Even though the prodigal son spent his inheritance he was accepted back into a full inheritance again.

 

Think of the greatness of the son of Alma even though he sought to destroy the church in his early years. I think his path allowed him to counsel his sons in a way that even gives us greater understanding of the process.  In other words, his folly in his youth and that history allowed him to be able to counsel those that had similar struggles a little more specifically, the process became a blessing for them and for us as we read his stories. 

 

 

While I agree that it's never to late to repent and be forgiven, prior to leaving this mortal realm, I would argue that the prodigal son did not receive a full inheritance again, upon his return.  As a reference, the father, speaking to the elder son, says: "Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine."  Hence, while the prodigal son's father completely forgave him for his poor decision, the consequences of that decision remained.  In other words, the prodigal son had already spent his portion of his father's earthly estate, and although he was forgiven, he was in no way entitled to his brother's portion of their father's estate and would subsequently not be receiving an earthly inheritance upon his father's passing.  That being said, as our Father's heavenly estate is not limited, we can all inherit all that the Father has.  However, we cannot get back the blessings that are lost as a result of sin.  For example, if I choose to engage in riotous living for 10 years, placing the gospel on the back burner, I can certainly repent, be forgiven, and one day inherit all that the Father has.  What I can't do, is get back those 10 years and the blessings, learning, and spiritual development that could have accompanied them had I been righteous.

 

Similarly, in regards to Alma the Younger, while I agree that his poor choices during his early years serve as a good teaching point for his children, and for all of us, I would look at this more as making the best of a bad situation.  Put another way, Christ never sinned, yet he is considered the Master Teacher.  Thus, one could extrapolate that experience is not a prerequisite of effective and powerful teaching.  What's more, Alma now has to live with the knowledge that his poor example, and unrighteous choices, caused others to fall away.  While he of course is not ultimately held accountable for the choices of others, I imagine that this was a consequence that caused him sorrow as he looked back on his life - and was also not something that went away simply because he repented and was forgiven.  Subsequently, it should be noted that while our sins our washed away, allowing us to avoid eternal punishment and receive blessing in the future, the consequences and repercussions that resulted from our poor choices are not washed away.  Restitution should of course be made to the extent possible, as part of the repentance process, but - as pointed out earlier - full restitution is rarely possible. 

 

In response to the following post by Traveler: How much is changed through repentance? I believe the answer is that we receive blessings. But are the blessings the same, better, or less than if we had remained faithful? Let me give one possible example. Let us suppose that at general conference President Monson asks us all to read the Book of Mormon over the next 6 months and that if we will complete the task we will be granted special (or additional) blessings of peace and prosperity through difficult times coming. We then start out reading but by time we get to 2nd Nephi we are occupied by other things and do not complete the task within the requested 6 months. Thus we lose the blessing we were promised by President Monson. But then a year later as things become difficult in our lives we repent and over the following year complete a reading of the Book of Mormon. Should we now expect the same blessings that were initially promised?

 

I would have to say that we don't necessarily receive better or worse blessings, we receive different blessings.  In other words, if you chose not to read the Book of Mormon in six months, as President Monson asked, then you have lost the promised blessing for accomplishing that task.  However, if down the road you decide to read the entire Book of Mormon, you will of course be blessed for your righteous choice; but the blessings received will be those associated with your choice to read the Book of Mormon, not those promised by the prophet for completing the specified task.  Put another way, if I told you that I'd give you $20 dollars to mow my lawn on Saturday June 21 and you choice to do something else, then that ship has sailed.  You can never again receive $20 for mowing my lawn on June 21.  However, that doesn't mean that you won't be compensated later, maybe even with $20, for mowing my lawn at some other point in the future.  Even if you do mow my lawn the next Saturday, you've still only received $20 for mowing my lawn once, instead of the $40 you could have had if you chose to mow my lawn twice.  In essence then, the moral of the story is that while you can't change the past, or reclaim lost blessings and opportunities - unless you have a DeLorean - you can shape the future and ensure that your choices going forward are better than those made in the past.

[Seminarysnoozer]

While I agree that it's never to late to repent and be forgiven, prior to leaving this mortal realm, I would argue that the prodigal son did not receive a full inheritance again, upon his return.  As a reference, the father, speaking to the elder son, says: "Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine."  Hence, while the prodigal son's father completely forgave him for his poor decision, the consequences of that decision remained.  In other words, the prodigal son had already spent his portion of his father's earthly estate, and although he was forgiven, he was in no way entitled to his brother's portion of their father's estate and would subsequently not be receiving an earthly inheritance upon his father's passing.  That being said, as our Father's heavenly estate is not limited, we can all inherit all that the Father has.  However, we cannot get back the blessings that are lost as a result of sin.  For example, if I choose to engage in riotous living for 10 years, placing the gospel on the back burner, I can certainly repent, be forgiven, and one day inherit all that the Father has.  What I can't do, is get back those 10 years and the blessings, learning, and spiritual development that could have accompanied them had I been righteous.

In the eternal view, what is 10 years?   Is there really that much lost.  We are given this time.  We are given a probationary time for this purpose, to work it out.   If in the end, we work it out, then there is nothing lost.

 

One key lesson from the Prodigal son is to not compare.  That is the lesson. In other words, we are not supposed to take from this that one son deserved something different than the other.  I think one misses the point of the story if one feels that way.  Jeffery Holland said about this story; "The father in this story does not tantalize his children. He does not mercilessly measure them against their neighbors. He doesn’t even compare them with each other. His gestures of compassion toward one do not require a withdrawal or denial of love for the other. He is divinely generous to both of these sons."

 

In the same talk he also said; "It will help us always to remember Paul’s succinct prioritizing of virtues—“Now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” He reminds us we are all of the body of Christ, and that all members, whether comely or feeble, are adored, essential, and important. We feel the depth of his plea that there be “no schism in the body, but that the members … have the same care one for another. And [when] one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or [when] one member [is] honoured, all the members rejoice.” ... "Brothers and sisters, I testify that no one of us is less treasured or cherished of God than another. I testify that He loves each of us—insecurities, anxieties, self-image, and all. He doesn’t measure our talents or our looks; He doesn’t measure our professions or our possessions. He cheers on every runner, calling out that the race is against sin, not against each other. I know that if we will be faithful, there is a perfectly tailored robe of righteousness ready and waiting for everyone, “robes … made … white in the blood of the Lamb.”

 

Like you are saying, when true inheritance is received it does not take away from someone else.  Whether someone is entitled to any inheritance or all inheritance is up to God to judge.  When the prodigal son returns he is in the full graces of his father and is loved equally as he does the older son.  There is no difference - that is one of the key points of the story. 

[Anddenex]

Okay – here is the question.  How much is changed through repentance?  I believe the answer is that we receive blessings.  But are the blessings the same, better, or less than if we had remained faithful?  Let me give one possible example.  Let us suppose that at general conference President Monson asks us all to read the Book of Mormon over the next 6 months and that if we will complete the task we will be granted special (or additional) blessings of peace and prosperity through difficult times coming.  We then start out reading but by time we get to 2nd Nephi we are occupied by other things and do not complete the task within the requested 6 months.  Thus we lose the blessing we were promised by President Monson.  But then a year later as things become difficult in our lives we repent and over the following year complete a reading of the Book of Mormon.  Should we now expect the same blessings that were initially promised?

 

How much is changed through repentance?

 

As to my knowledge I believe the answer is determined by the actual promise and the promised blessings.  Exaltation, the achievement of, is determined by our repentance whether since the beginning, or like the sons of Alma who repented later in their lives; although, the danger of repenting later, procrastinating, has a greater tendency to lead us away from the Lord.  As a person comes unto Christ, that individual is cleansed through the atonement.  Exaltation is not lost, the promise is still received.

 

In relation to the example provided, the promises may or may not be received depending on the promise.  However, anytime we deny the light we ultimately loose something (e.g. experience).  Experiences lost cannot be gained even if later the experience (blessing/light) is once again restored.  

 

Example, if by honoring President Monson's request, one day we are reading and are enlightened by the spirit of the Lord.  Through this enlightenment, we feel an impression and follow the impression.  This impression leads to a wonderful experience -- blessing.  The opposite is true also, we don't obey,  we may not have been enlightened, we loose out on the impression, and we loose out on the experience -- blessing.  In light of this, there are promised blessings of reading scriptures, now or repenting later, which are readily given ( as someone already shared D&C 130: 20-21 ). These are never lost, if we repent and do as we are commanded.

 

Should we now expect the same blessings that were initially promised?

 

As to my knowledge, as it is now, No.  We do not have any right to expect to receive any promised blessings if the allotted time is over -- procrastination doesn't appear to be awarded; although, do I believe we are able to plead, cry out, to our Father in faith that these blessings be restored unto us, according to the Father's will, the Father's pleasure, and the Father's mercy and love?  Yes.  We should plead, but never expect, and be grateful should they again be restored upon us or even if they are not.  We made the choice to disregard the promise.  We are only to be faulted, not Heavenly Father.

 

To conclude, as my introduction paragraph, it would appear in this life some blessings are lost if we have missed the allotted time period, while some may be restored due to the grace of God.

[Traveler]

A couple of quick thoughts.  There is a Buddhist saying (changed somewhat by myself to make a point) – that if you splash and make waves in your swimming pool then you will swim in un-calm waters.    It would seem that eternal law would return the results of what we initiate.   In essence the garden of our blessings will not produce fruit that we do not plant and cultivate.   We can be forgiven for cultivating bad fruit but the good fruit comes only from cultivating good.  We can repent of evil but there is no repentance for not doing that which is good.

It seems to me that many expect blessing beyond that which we develop.  Does repentance entitle individuals to blessing?   It appears to me that repentance removes the stain of sin – but is that enough in the eternal scheme of things?   Does being innocent and pure qualify someone for the Celestial Kingdom or is that just a qualification for the resurrection to some kingdom of glory?  Is an attitude change enough for the Celestial Kingdom or are deeds necessary?

 

The parable of the prodigal son has been highlighted.  I find this parable most interesting in that “prodigal” does not mean sinful – it means extravagant.   Some may argue that extravagance (prodigal) is sin.  But it is not the sin of rebellion as it is a sin of not appreciating and keeping sacred the blessings we have.  But there is another thought about the prodigal son.  This is that Jesus uses parables to teach of divine things.  In the parable of the prodigal son – which son most presents an example of Jesus?  Is the prodigal son an example of Jesus’ devotion to the Father?  Does Jesus feel obligation to keep all the Father’s commands and to do the Father’s will?  Does Jesus have reason to be obedient?  Has he, like the prodigal son returned to the Father not so much thinking to inherit everything but willing to do whatever the Father asks so that he can be with him?

[Seminarysnoozer]

 We can repent of evil but there is no repentance for not doing that which is good.

It seems to me that many expect blessing beyond that which we develop. 

 

 Has he, like the prodigal son returned to the Father not so much thinking to inherit everything but willing to do whatever the Father asks so that he can be with him?

D&C 58; " 42 Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more."

 

From Shane Bowen of the Quorum of the Seventy, his talk and video entitled "The Atonement Can Clean, Reclaim, and Sanctify Our Lives"; "Also speaking of the Atonement, Jacob, the brother of Nephi, taught: “Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more” (2 Nephi 9:7).

The Atonement of Jesus Christ is available to each of us. His Atonement is infinite. It applies to everyone, even you. It can clean, reclaim, and sanctify even you. That is what infinite means—total, complete, all, forever. President Boyd K. Packer has taught: “There is no habit, no addiction, no rebellion, no transgression, no apostasy, no crime exempted from the promise of complete forgiveness. That is the promise of the atonement of Christ”

 

Matthew 20; " 9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

 11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

 12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

 13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

 14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee."

 

Look carefully at Elder Hollands words; "Whether you are not yet of our faith or were with us once and have not remained, there is nothing in either case that you have done that cannot be undone. There is no problem which you cannot overcome. There is no dream that in the unfolding of time and eternity cannot yet be realized. Even if you feel you are the lost and last laborer of the eleventh hour, the Lord of the vineyard still stands beckoning. “Come boldly [to] the throne of grace,”³ and fall at the feet of the Holy One of Israel. Come and feast “without money and without price”⁴ at the table of the Lord."

 

He says very clearly, against your statement, that even someone who has refrained from doing good - they didn't remain in the church - that yes they can repent and the effects of that "not doing good" can be "undone".  They "can feast without money and without price".

 

I wonder if you have an appreciation of what "grace" means - it is to give something for which the person did not pay a full price for or even for free.  This is our religion - don't fight it.  Read Elder Holland's talk "It is never to late", he explains that the parable of the laborers in the vineyard is about "grace". Elder Holland; "This is a story about God’s goodness, His patience and forgiveness, and the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is a story about generosity and compassion. It is a story about grace."  Elder Holland; "So don’t hyperventilate about something that happened at 9:00 in the morning when the grace of God is trying to reward you at 6:00 in the evening—whatever your labor arrangements have been through the day."  

 

It is never too late!!! to undo completely the effects of not doing good - that is because God is merciful and the atonement of Christ is infinite and complete - not partial. This is all about the strength of faith one has in Christ.  To say that there is some incomplete forgiveness is to say that even Christ' atonement is not that powerful, that demonstrates a lack of testimony and faith in Christ.  I believe that Christ is that powerful and can be the "finisher" of our faith, to make up the difference that we could not or did not do ourselves so long as we have faith and repent. We do not have to do it all our selves!!! Satan tried to convince people that they did not need a Savior, that they should just be rewarded for their own deeds and receive all the glory in and of their self.  He already lost that battle because that is not true.  We need a Savior to complete the parts that we could not do for ourself. We receive that portion as a gift not as a payment of equivalent value to the work we did.

 

------

Also, to be with God is to inherit all that He has.  The prodigal son had to physically come back to his father to have all that he had, the other son had all the father had because he was physically with him.  Christ does not separate the two facts like you are trying to do. To be with Him is to inherit all that He has and to inherit all that He has one has to have a desire to be one with Him. They are one in the samel, not two separate issues.

[Anddenex]

"It would seem that eternal law would return the results of what we initiate.   In essence the garden of our blessings will not produce fruit that we do not plant and cultivate."   

 

This is well taught within the Book of Mormon -- restoration (Alma 41: 3-5).  The state of our intelligence will be determined by our works and our personal desires for good or evil.  This is also the reason why I love this verse delivered by Isaiah (2 Nephi 13: 9), "The show of their countenance doth witness against them, and doth declare their sin to be even as Sodom."  Our works, our desires, will either increase our intelligence (light and truth) or it will be decreased.  Thus, I enjoy the analogy of a garden in relation to the blessings of heaven.  We reap what we have cultivated.  

 

Repentance is a "change of mind."  Without a change from evil to good, there is no repentance.  I agree with the sentiment.  Criminals for a time while in jail stop and feel bad for their behaviors, but when they are free again they have not repented and return to the mire.

 

It seems to me that many expect blessing beyond that which we develop.  Does repentance entitle individuals to blessing?

 

I would agree with the sentiment that many people expect blessings by which they have not earned or deserve.  We see this within the Church, within our government, and within educational system.  Within our Church we observe individuals who sincerely believe they are worthy of all the Father hath, but do nothing to serve in the Church.  They want all the Father hath without serving the Father.  They want fruit to grow in their garden without cultivating the soil.  Heck some don't even care to plant.

 

It appears to me that repentance removes the stain of sin – but is that enough in the eternal scheme of things?

 

Excellent question, especially when a person ponders the analogy of the prodigal son; however,  is there a possibility repentance isn't enough?  Yes, depending on the sins committed and the level of knowledge one has.  King David is known to have sought repentance and repented -- recognized his evil -- sought the Lord.  We also know that David lost his exaltation.  He lost all the father hath.  I guess another question one might ask then David really repent?  He appears to have tried.  Mercy cannot rob justice, and justice cannot rob mercy, they both must have their claim.  

 

Does being innocent and pure qualify someone for the Celestial Kingdom or is that just a qualification for the resurrection to some kingdom of glory?

 

In the case of children, yes.  In the case of some autistic, down syndrome, and other mentally challenged sons/daughters of God -- yes.  When I taught seminary to children with special needs one of the most important lessons I was taught is that they are learning, IF, a person teaches by the spirit; physically they may not be able to explain what they learn, but when the spirit speaks to their spirit they are learning.  They are innocent and pure in this life.  Their spirits are however learning. I can see no reason, nor would it be just, to deny such the Celestial kingdom.  As to my knowledge as it currently stands.

 

Is an attitude change enough for the Celestial Kingdom or are deeds necessary?

 

We are saved according by the grace of God after all we can do.  We are judged according to our works and the desires of our heart.  The parable of the talents is a good analogy of how the Lord feels about our works and how he feels about increasing our talents -- gifts.

 

The parable of the prodigal son has been highlighted.  I find this parable most interesting in that “prodigal” does not mean sinful – it means extravagant.   Some may argue that extravagance (prodigal) is sin.  But it is not the sin of rebellion as it is a sin of not appreciating and keeping sacred the blessings we have.  But there is another thought about the prodigal son.  This is that Jesus uses parables to teach of divine things.  In the parable of the prodigal son – which son most presents an example of Jesus?  Is the prodigal son an example of Jesus’ devotion to the Father?  Does Jesus feel obligation to keep all the Father’s commands and to do the Father’s will?  Does Jesus have reason to be obedient?  Has he, like the prodigal son returned to the Father not so much thinking to inherit everything but willing to do whatever the Father asks so that he can be with him?

 

If my love were perfect for my wife, obligation would definitely be apart of my life.  Obligation though would be influenced by my love.  Due to my love the obligation to obey, to serve, would not result from compulsion.  Compulsion would be out of the equation.  The more we love the more we recognize our responsibilities and that we need to honor and keep them.  Our sin is a result of not having a perfect love for God.  

 

As God moved with love for us in delivering his only begotten son, Jesus moved with love of God and his fellowmen such that he paid the ultimate price.  Yes, he had reason to be obedient, however, even without the need to save us, he still would have been perfect because that is his nature -- Godly (intelligence = light and truth).

 

As pertaining to the prodigal son, I once read a statement which distinguished the righteous son from the prodigal.  The father says to the righteous son, paraphrased, I have given him a fatted calf and a party but you I have given all that I have.  What is the reason for the distinction, because wouldn't the prodigal also receive all the father has also since he returned -- repented?   The statement is moot if so and the distinction is pointless.  Then why the statement.

 

The individual presented it is because the son wasted away his days of probation and despite his return he still would not receive all the father hath.  This appears to be true, the circumstance as to which is true, I don't know.  Could this be the son, who wasted his days of probation, but due to the righteousness of his father is able to be received in the Celestial kingdom but not be exalted, in other words, he/she is with the Father but will not receive all the Father hath.  Three degrees in the Celestial kingdom tend to provide evidence to this.

 

@Seminary--define for me what you mean to be with God?  Because we have three degrees of glory by which people will be with the Father but will not have all that he hath.

[Traveler]

 

....

 

As pertaining to the prodigal son, I once read a statement which distinguished the righteous son from the prodigal.  The father says to the righteous son, paraphrased, I have given him a fatted calf and a party but you I have given all that I have.  What is the reason for the distinction, because wouldn't the prodigal also receive all the father has also since he returned -- repented?   The statement is moot if so and the distinction is pointless.  Then why the statement.

 

The individual presented it is because the son wasted away his days of probation and despite his return he still would not receive all the father hath.  This appears to be true, the circumstance as to which is true, I don't know.  Could this be the son, who wasted his days of probation, but due to the righteousness of his father is able to be received in the Celestial kingdom but not be exalted, in other words, he/she is with the Father but will not receive all the Father hath.  Three degrees in the Celestial kingdom tend to provide evidence to this.

 

@Seminary--define for me what you mean to be with God?  Because we have three degrees of glory by which people will be with the Father but will not have all that he hath.

 

 

There are dimensions to the prodigal son I find interesting a worthy of extended study and consideration.    From our LDS scripture study helps we learn that repentance is a change of heart or attitude adjustment.    Also many are sure we will inherit all the Father has or in other words the Father will give us all he has.   There is however, quite a difference from a parent willing to do anything and everything for their children and children utilizing what they receive from their parents and not “wasting” the efforts of their parents.  Many times I have tried to imply that it really is not that important to consider what the Father is willing to do for us and give us.  What is important is what we do with what we are given and receive.  Focusing of what we get is what the two sons both do in the parable of the prodigal son.  The one difference is that one of the sons come to their senses and no longer desired to be given anything from the father but rather desires to serve their father – knowing the father to be just.  It is obvious from the discussion that the oldest son did not make this most important transformation.

 

In both cases the father gave all he had to each son – one came to understand the value of his father and his father’s willingness to give and forgive and the other did not.   Thus the prodigal son was the only son to actually received all the father had – which included the understanding and ability to give and forgive others.   I believe the parable is given that we come to identify ourselves with the repentant son that having lost all then found joy and value in “returning” to the Father not for his father’s wealth, glory power or gifts but to be like him.

[Seminarysnoozer]

 

 

@Seminary--define for me what you mean to be with God?  Because we have three degrees of glory by which people will be with the Father but will not have all that he hath.

 

It was in response to Travelers question or statement; "Has he, like the prodigal son returned to the Father not so much thinking to inherit everything but willing to do whatever the Father asks so that he can be with him?"

 

Since we were talking about the Savior, then I guess I was only refering to those that will be "one" with God as Christ is "one" with Him, all those that are "willing to do whatever the Father asks so that (they) can be with Him". 

 

To be with God requires the ability to be in that state of glory.  To be in that state of glory requires having all that God has.  I don't think they can be separated.  The prodigal son could not have all his father had without being there. He couldn't do it traveling off to a far away land.  He had to be with him.

 

The specifics of what it means to "be" with God, I cannot answer.  I kind of doubt it is a physical thing but more of a connectiveness as if the two are experiencing similar things or aware of what the other is experiencing, however that is done, through physical location or some other means I don't know.   But I think we can call all that simply as "being one with Him".