Earrings

[mirkwood]

Can we argue about caffeine in this thread too?

[Guest]

Only if beards are free fodder. 

[jerome1232]

Only if beards are free fodder. 

I prefer to shampoo my beard in Pepsi

[Guest]

I've heard of glazing ham with Pepsi, but not beards.

[The Folk Prophet]

 

I can us the topical guide also what you are missing is Context

 

 

Statements by leaders may be useful and true, but when they are “expressed outside the established, prophetic parameters,” they do “not represent the official doctrine or position of the Church.”15 This includes statements given in General Conference. Conference talks—while certainly beneficial for 

the spiritual edification of the Saints—generally focus on revealed, official truths. They do not—by nature of being given in Conference—expound “official” doctrine. As Harold B. Lee said, “It is not to be thought that every word spoken by the General Authorities is inspired, or that they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost in everything they write.”16 To claim that anything taught in general conference is “official” doctrine, notes J. F. McConkie, “makes the place where something is said rather than what is said the standard of truth. Nor is something doctrine simply because it was said by someone who holds a particular office or position. Truth is not an office or a position to which one is ordained.”17

 

15 Brent L. Top, Larry E. Dahl, and Walter D. Bowen, Follow the 

Living Prophets (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1993), 118. 16 Harold B. Lee, Stand Ye in Holy Places (Salt Lake City: Deseret 

Book Company., 1974), 162. 

17 Joseph Fielding McConkie, Answers: Straightforward Answers to 

Tough Gospel Questions (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 

1998), 213–214.

 

 

Let me restate since there seems to be misunderstanding.

 

No one is, or should be, saying that everything said at general conference is doctrine or that how many earrings one wears is doctrinal. What I am saying, now re-saying that maybe it might get through, is that it IS doctrinal that we should follow the counsel of our leaders, particularly our prophet.

[omegaseamaster75]

Can we argue about caffeine in this thread too?

sure but it's all hearsay :)

[Backroads]

Not every word uttered in General conference should be taken as doctrine. I do not think our prophets want to have "follow the leader" mentality in the church. I believe that the gifts held by our Prophet, those of being a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator are manifest under under special conditions. I think that many members of the church give to much credence to the talks given in Conference, and are to quick to claim that since a GA said it, it must be doctrine or something that we must do.

 

 

I like this. And I'm one who most if not always takes into consideration what GAs say.

 

But, I believe, technically, it's pretty much advice.  Good advice, perhaps even inspired advice.  But still just advice.  We ought to consider it, but not at the level of gospel doctrine.

[Backroads]

And while we're talking about Pepsi and beards, I will also declare each and everyone of you to have a wrong understanding of the WoW.

[mirkwood]

Are you saying that while wearing a white shirt?

[omegaseamaster75]

And while we're talking about Pepsi and beards, I will also declare each and everyone of you to have a wrong understanding of the WoW.

98.9% of members do not understand WoW

[The Folk Prophet]

98.9% of members do not understand WoW

 

And 93.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

 

Where'd you pull yours from?

[Just_A_Guy]

And 93.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

 

Where's you pull yours from?

 

I pull mine from the 6.7% I pay in tithing (on my net income, of course, after deducting my mortgage, food expenses, payments on my BMW, and my semi-annual vacations to Bora Bora), leaving 93.3%, which--incidentally--is the same number TFP just gave, which I take as divine confirmation that my position is correct.

[Backroads]

Are you saying that while wearing a white shirt?

 

 

Actually, yes.

[The Folk Prophet]

I like this. And I'm one who most if not always takes into consideration what GAs say.

 

But, I believe, technically, it's pretty much advice.  Good advice, perhaps even inspired advice.  But still just advice.  We ought to consider it, but not at the level of gospel doctrine.

 

There is this trend going around that if it's not "doctrine" then it isn't important -- that it's only for consideration. I reject that. It does not need to be gospel doctrine to be important. Following the counsel of the prophet is, as I've stated, not a recommendation.  I'll re-post this scripture:  D&C 21:4

 

"Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;"

 

Somehow this has been relegated to: thou shalt give heed unto all his commandments, but his other words may be picked and chosen from according to thy will.

 

I'm not buying.

 

"...all his words and commandments..."

 

It's one thing to talk about some chatty advice that an apostle or prophet may give as not that important and just his opinion. It's another thing entirely to take what is prophetic advice, officially and clearly directed tot he church at large, albeit only advice, and disregard it. It may well not be "gospel doctrine", as you say. But it is still the voice of the Lord. And I, for one, plan on following advice from the Lord as if it is gospel doctrine. Failure to heed to such advise will bring the promised peril

 

D&C 124:45 again:

 

"...if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest..."

 

D&C 21:6

"For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory."

 

That's a promise I want! I want to be "blest" and have the powers of darkness disperse from before me. It the mists of darkness in these latter days this promise is so important. And it comes by faithfully following all the "advice" and counsel of our prophets and apostles, as well as the "gospel doctrine" they command.

[Backroads]

TFP, if that were completely true, advice to the church members would remain constant throughout the decades.  Twenty years ago we were advised to pay our way through college and not take out student loans.  Decades ago we were advised to let no mother work outside the home. 

 

I suppose one could argue the advice is given as it is needed, but does that mean we suffer in silence until need causes GAs to give a different bunch of advice?

[The Folk Prophet]

TFP, if that were completely true, advice to the church members would remain constant throughout the decades.

 

Nonsense. The Israelites needed no advise about social media.

 

Look, you can view it how you want. The scriptures are pretty straight forward. Ignore the prophet's and apostle's words at our peril.

 

 

I suppose one could argue the advice is given as it is needed, but does that mean we suffer in silence until need causes GAs to give a different bunch of advice?

 

And we all have the right to personal inspiration and the spirit justifies. If the spirit tells someone to wear multiple earrings and never wear a white shirt then they best follow. That is true of commandments as well (example: Nephi and Laban). That does not and should not translate to a general preaching that we should blow off prophetic advise as "whatever, I'll think about it...if I agree I'll follow...maybe... But if I happen to disagree then I can ignore it because it's not a commandment" sort of talk.

[Backroads]

But our point was that often GAs DO state their opinion on matters and it is broadcasted to the church at large.  This is different from prophetic advice. 

 

I agree, do not blow off prophetic counsel.  But if we treat everything that comes from the musings of a GA as prophetic counsel to the church as a whole we can lose our focus and far too many church members become "holier than though".

[The Folk Prophet]

But our point was that often GAs DO state their opinion on matters and it is broadcasted to the church at large.  This is different from prophetic advice. 

 

I agree, do not blow off prophetic counsel.  But if we treat everything that comes from the musings of a GA as prophetic counsel to the church as a whole we can lose our focus and far too many church members become "holier than though".

 

I have to wonder, which particular bit of advice given over the pulpit to the church at large are you suggesting we ignore?

 

And since when to you presume that our prophets and apostles broadcasts are "musings" that will lead members astray and drive them to become holier-than thou? This opinion seems highly cynical. Do you not believe that they put great thought, effort, and prayer into the messages they deliver? Do you suppose they take their responsibility and influence so lightly?

[mrmarklin]

Lots of the advice we get from the GAs has a huge cultural bias.

 

These guys live largely on the East Bench (yeah, it's the good area) in SLC, go to affluent wards, rarely, if ever, see anyone there not dressed in accordance to their white bread, cultural circumstances. When they travel, which is a lot, they see largely the best foot forward-Potemkin Village stuff.

 

So when a GA goes somewhere and sees too many earrings, non-white shirts, tattoos, piercings, beards and other non-SLC dress patterns etc. it's jarring to their sensibilities.  Hence we get "advice".

 

We need to take it all with a grain of salt IMHO.

 

Treat this as a post in the White Shirt category as well.

[The Folk Prophet]

Lots of the advice we get from the GAs has a huge cultural bias.

 

These guys live largely on the East Bench (yeah, it's the good area) in SLC, go to affluent wards, rarely, if ever, see anyone there not dressed in accordance to their white bread, cultural circumstances. When they travel, which is a lot, they see largely the best foot forward-Potemkin Village stuff.

 

So when a GA goes somewhere and sees too many earrings, non-white shirts, tattoos, piercings, beards and other non-SLC dress patterns etc. it's jarring to their sensibilities.  Hence we get "advice".

 

We need to take it all with a grain of salt IMHO.

 

Treat this as a post in the White Shirt category as well.

 

Right. Cultural bias. They aren't led by the spirit or anything. Just a bunch of rich white guys in suits who don't understand.

[jerome1232]

Think of the Prophet as your daddy and yourself as a rebellious child looking for any excuse to mitigate their advice. I don't mean to be insulting but that's what your post comes across to me as. The rebellious child accusing daddy of not understanding and being an old stuffy guy with no connection to how things work these days.

[omegaseamaster75]

Right. Cultural bias. They aren't led by the spirit or anything. Just a bunch of rich white guys in suits who don't understand.

From your mouth to Gods ears.....

 

I can, I suppose list the number of times a GA has put his foot in his mouth, or given poor or incorrect council but what would be the point. The church does not offer apologies or retractions. I am fine with this, as we are also taught to use and exercise our own free agency to humbly pray for our own answers and to seek out our own personal revelation.

[Just_A_Guy]

I have no illusions of the GAs being (in their individual capacities) perfect; but I think there's a huge difference between "The GAs are wrong until I can be convinced otherwise" versus "The GAs are right until I can be convinced otherwise".

 

In the culture in which most Mormons (including, but not limited to, the East Bench of the Wasatch Front) currently function, white is a symbol of purity and can contribute to the experience of a ritual such as the sacrament or a priesthood ordination/blessing.  In the culture in which most Mormons (including, but not limited to, the East Bench of the Wasatch Front) currently function, huge and/or multiple earrings screams "I scorn the notions of obedience and compliance--NOTICE ME!!!!!".  In both situations, while the GAs' counsel is not framed as an imperative, there is certainly merit to that counsel and the cost of compliance is almost ridiculously small.

 

In both situations, whether an individual Mormon chooses to follow the counsel is none of my darned business--unless or until that individual Mormon uses the fact that the GA has weighed in on an issue in an attempt to drive a wedge between myself and the GA, the better to encourage me to disobedience on some of the weightier matters of the gospel.

[dahlia]

I noticed younger Mormon women had in Utah - the spaghetti strap shirts worn over a t-shirt. As far as I can tell, this seems to be a Mormon/Region fashion statement. I would not be surprised to see other Mormon women in other US states dress differently.

 

M.

We have a lot of the tee shirt under a sun dress thing going on here. We also have a lot of members who, if not from Utah, went to BYU. I thought it was just a modesty thing, rather than a Utah thing, but live and learn.

 

I do see a lot of the big hair, helmet hair, and streaked hair on sisters from the West. We are cute, but a bit more natural out here.

[Backroads]

I have to wonder, which particular bit of advice given over the pulpit to the church at large are you suggesting we ignore?

 

And since when to you presume that our prophets and apostles broadcasts are "musings" that will lead members astray and drive them to become holier-than thou? This opinion seems highly cynical. Do you not believe that they put great thought, effort, and prayer into the messages they deliver? Do you suppose they take their responsibility and influence so lightly?

 

I believe it was Ezra Taft Benson who declared we should not take out student loans to pay for college but rather work for our tuition fee no matter how long it took.  He said that over the pulpit.  I know many people of that generation who found the advice not feasible and ignored it.

 

That was forever ago, but that advice wasn't the best for everyone. 

 

I have a good friend that refuses to visit teach any woman with a tattoo as the GAs said we shouldn't get tattoos.  I'm not blaming the GAs for her views and yes, I do believe they put great thought and prayer into what they deliver.  But I also believe they do not want us to obey their words while forgetting higher laws of love and charity. 

 

You're right, we should listen to the GAs and heed their advice and I was wrong to suggest otherwise.  But if I must pick between dangly earrings and loving my neighbor, I'm going to love my neighbor.