25, Haven't Started Dating Because of Health Issues.

[The Folk Prophet]

This was posted earlier ....Harold B Lee thinks that you should not be married as a man until you can care for a family and be independent.

Sounds like I'm not to far off from the counsel of the church leaders as other have thought.

 

Yes, we all read it the first time it was posted.

 

You're off the counsel of the church, as indicated in the start of this, in saying, FINISH SCHOOL...then marry.

 

No one has said that people should marry if they can't care for their family. What is being said is that it is perfectly possible to care for a family while going to school.

[Suzie]

Reading through the thread again...to be fair to all, the Church never counseled that people should get married BEFORE finishing school and by the other hand,  the Church never counseled that people should get married AFTER finishing school. Saying this is the Church position or this isn't the Church position isn't accurate, IMO. Of course, when sharing personal opinions is all good but no more than that.

 

It seems to me based on the quotes provided earlier in the thread that the Church position is that they want members to become self-sufficient, independent and have the ability to care for a family before they think to get married (this could be before or after finishing school) and most importantly, that the decision to marry is so important that it should be made only after the most prayerful and careful consideration.

 

IMO, with this particular case, I think the OP shouldn't worry about marriage just yet. He should take his time to relax, learn some social skills, get to know people, make friends, go out, have fun etc since based on his account, due to his health issues, he never had that opportunity before.

[The Folk Prophet]

Reading through the thread again...to be fair to all, the Church never counseled that people should get married BEFORE finishing school and by the other hand,  the Church never counseled that people should get married AFTER finishing school.

 

But the church has counselled to not intentionally put off marriage to finish school.

 

Saying this is the Church position or this isn't the Church position isn't accurate, IMO. Of course, when sharing personal opinions is all good but no more than that.

 

Forgive me if I'm misreading this, but there seems to be an implication that the church has no position. I would contend that to be obviously inaccurate.

 

It seems to me based on the quotes provided earlier in the thread that the Church position is that they want members to become self-sufficient, independent and have the ability to care for a family before they think to get married (this could be before or after finishing school) and most importantly, 

 

It also seems to me that most peoples idea of what self-sufficient means is pretty far off based.

[estradling75]

It seems to me based on the quotes provided earlier in the thread that the Church position is that they want members to become self-sufficient, independent and have the ability to care for a family before they think to get married (this could be before or after finishing school) and most importantly, that the decision to marry is so important that it should be made only after the most prayerful and careful consideration.

 

I (mostly)agree with this.   Seems to me that the Church is being very clear on its messages which I see are.  "Don't forget that marriage and family should and need to be a priority" and "Don't be stupid about how you pursue the priority of Marriage and family."   I see it as a very constant message, but ones focused to different groups of people

 

  I think a lot of people allow very worldly notions of what it takes to be self-sufficient and independent.  I think way to many try to do it all at once instead of understanding that Marriage and Families build over time.  A person does not need to be able to afford a stay at home spouse, and pay for 6 missions/schooling/marriages before they can even think about asking someone to marry them.  In fact for that very first step (getting married) the ability of both people to independently provide for their own needs is more then enough to cover married life.  Two people can live together more cheaply then two people can live apart.  So if both are independent then marriage should be a quality of life increase.  At least until they start adjusting things to prepare to have kids.

 

That is usually when they go from being two independent adults to two interdependent adults.  This stereotypically takes the form of the guy providing the income and the lady providing the full time care for very dependent babies.  That is usually when the money stress really hits (on top of the stress of a new kid).  Lets face it adding a new dependent does require the families resources to be diverted from else where.  Those resources need to be there.  But at the same time if we avoid trying to keep up with the more worldly demands and definitions then we are more likely to see that we do have enough 

[The Folk Prophet]

At least until they start adjusting things to prepare to have kids.

 

If we wanted to start looking at the church's "position" on whether to wait for financial stability before having children or not, we get a whole new understanding.

 

The church's position, as always, incorporates wisdom, but it is, without question, that we should be making babies! :) (Legally and lawfully within the bounds of marriage, of course).

[Suzie]

 

Forgive me if I'm misreading this, but there seems to be an implication that the church has no position. I would contend that to be obviously inaccurate.

 

 

It also seems to me that most peoples idea of what self-sufficient means is pretty far off based.

 

I go by the quotes I posted earlier in the thread.

 

I am not trying to urge you younger men to marry too early. I think therein is one of the hazards of today’s living.We don’t want a young man to think of marriage until he is able to take care of a family, to have an institution of his own, to be independent.

 

“When full-time missionaries return home, they should be counseled concerning such matters as continuing their education or employment, strengthening family relationships, participating actively in the Church, paying tithes and offerings, and preparing for temple marriage. It is unwise, however, to ‘recommend that missionaries be married within a specific time.

 

For me, the first quote is very clear and I do not believe in extremes. Self-sufficient does not mean wealthy or having two cars and a big house but for me, it means you are financially independent and have a job that can support a family and pay for food, clothing and shelter. Perhaps someone can do this before they finish school, another while in school and another person can do it after school. In the end, as the Church clearly stated:

 

"The decision to marry is so important that it should be made only after the most prayerful and careful consideration by the individual.

"

[Suzie]

But the church has counselled to not intentionally put off marriage to finish school.

 

 

Forgive me if I'm misreading this, but there seems to be an implication that the church has no position. I would contend that to be obviously inaccurate.

 

 

It also seems to me that most peoples idea of what self-sufficient means is pretty far off based.

 

 

I go by the quotes I posted earlier in the thread.

 

I am not trying to urge you younger men to marry too early. I think therein is one of the hazards of today’s living.We don’t want a young man to think of marriage until he is able to take care of a family, to have an institution of his own, to be independent.

 

“When full-time missionaries return home, they should be counseled concerning such matters as continuing their education or employment, strengthening family relationships, participating actively in the Church, paying tithes and offerings, and preparing for temple marriage. It is unwise, however, to ‘recommend that missionaries be married within a specific time.

 

For me, the first quote is very clear and I do not believe in extremes. Self-sufficient does not mean wealthy or having two cars and a big house but for me, it means you are financially independent and have a job that can support a family and pay for food, clothing and shelter. Perhaps someone can do this before they finish school, another while in school and another person can do it after school. In the end, as the Church clearly stated:

 

"The decision to marry is so important that it should be made only after the most prayerful and careful consideration by the individual.

"

[Suzie]

A person does not need to be able to afford a stay at home spouse, and pay for 6 missions/schooling/marriages before they can even think about asking someone to marry them.

 

I agree but as the quote stated, they shouldn't be thinking about it until they are able to take care of a family (IMO, basic needs). It worries me a bit the underlined thought (generally speaking) that says "Oh, don't worry, all you have to do is have faith". Faith does not feed, cloth or shelter a spouse and babies.

 

I think is very irresponsible to get married if you aren't able to meet these needs, granted there are emergencies that occur and a person might lose a job while married etc, but other than that I do not think it is a good thing for someone to get married when they are not able to meet these needs and then perhaps expect that relatives or even the Church take care of  them financially.

[The Folk Prophet]

Quote

"The decision to marry is so important that it should be made only after the most prayerful and careful consideration by the individual.

 

The fact that the decision is individual (which is absolutely valid and clear) does not nullify the general counsel given.  For example, concerning having children, Elder Neil L Andersen said:

 

"When to have a child and how many children to have are private decisions to be made between a husband and wife and the Lord. These are sacred decisions—decisions that should be made with sincere prayer and acted on with great faith."

 

In the same article he taught that we should not delay or limit our family.

 

Was he breaking his own standard and contradicting himself in doing so? Of course not.

 

"I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves." Joseph Smith

 

So it is with these things. The church teaches us correct principles. But it is our business whether we follow them or not.

 

The correct principle is clear. Here's another quote for the mix:

 

"If you are a young man of appropriate age and are not married, don’t waste time in idle pursuits. Get on with life and focus on getting married. Don’t just coast through this period of life. Young men, serve a worthy mission. Then make your highest priority finding a worthy, eternal companion." - Richard G. Scott

 

(Incidentally, per your response to estradling75, how do you reconcile making it the highest priority and not thinking about it whatsoever? I believe it clear that when it says "not think about getting married", it does not mean literally do not think about it, but is a turn of phrase meaning they should not jump into it unprepared. The emphasis is clearly on preparing for it, which requires thinking about it. -- just my thoughts)

[The Folk Prophet]

Faith does not feed, cloth or shelter a spouse and babies.

 

Faith is EXACTLY what will feed and cloth spouse and babies.

 

Faith, as is well known, is an action word, and is dead without works.

 

Claiming faith, on the other hand, and then proceeding to ignore the counsel given by the church to be self-sufficient, gain an education, stay out of debt, etc., is no faith at all.

 

Refusing to see a doctor when sick because you have "faith" is not faith.

 

Faith is not equivalent to belief.

[estradling75]

I agree but as the quote stated, they shouldn't be thinking about it until they are able to take care of a family (IMO, basic needs). It worries me a bit the underlined thought (generally speaking) that says "Oh, don't worry, all you have to do is have faith". Faith does not feed, cloth or shelter a spouse and babies.

 

I think is very irresponsible to get married if you aren't able to meet these needs, granted there are emergencies that occur and a person might lose a job while married etc, but other than that I do not think it is a good thing for someone to get married when they are not able to meet these needs and then perhaps expect that relatives or even the Church take care of  them financially.

 

Which I covered when I said

 

 

I (mostly)agree with this.   Seems to me that the Church is being very clear on its messages which I see are.  "Don't forget that marriage and family should and need to be a priority" and "Don't be stupid about how you pursue the priority of Marriage and family."   I see it as a very constant message, but ones focused to different groups of people

 

The first group tends to let the World set their priorities or have some kind of fear of the idea.  Which is why they get the first message

 

The second group tends to hear the message for the first group and take it much farther then intended.  Such over reaction is what the second message is designed to correct.

 

Instead of the messages conflicting they both point to the same goal.  Preparing a person to get married and have kids

[Suzie]

 

The church's position, as always, incorporates wisdom, but it is, without question, that we should be making babies! :) (Legally and lawfully within the bounds of marriage, of course).

 

Let's add:

 

Children are one of the greatest blessings in life, and their birth into loving and nurturing families is central to God’s purposes for humanity. When husband and wife are physically able, they have the privilege and responsibility to bring children into the world and to nurture them. The decision of how many children to have and when to have them is a private matter for the husband and wife.

 

And:

 

Decisions about birth control and the consequences of those decisions rest solely with each married couple. Elective abortion as a method of birth control, however, is contrary to the commandments of God.

 

https://www.lds.org/topics/birth-control?lang=eng

[The Folk Prophet]

Let's add:

 

 

 

 

And:

 

 

 

 

https://www.lds.org/topics/birth-control?lang=eng

 

Addressed in post #59, but I'll restate. The fact that something is an individual decisions does not nullify the principle.

[Backroads]

One thought I kept having is that (without doing a proper historical search but simply basing this on what I have managed to glean) throughout history, one didn't seem to marry until one was able to support a wife.  I think our higher education-loving culture has altered what it means to be ready to support a family or on the other end of the spectrum made "support" unnecessary (marry for love!)

[omegaseamaster75]

I think that what is not being discussed is the cultural pressure that the OP feels to get married. He is 25 about to go on a mission and is concerned that at age 27 he will be to old to find a worthy spouse. This cultural pressure is what causes young people who are wholly unprepared for marriage and having kids to take the plunge. TFP said correctly that claiming faith, on the other hand, and then proceeding to ignore the counsel given by the church to be self-sufficient, gain an education, stay out of debt, etc., is no faith at all.

 

However this is not what happens. I went to what was once Ricks college and the perception that they can get married and somehow everything will work out was pervasive then and is now. 

 

​The simple fact that the divorce rate in the church approaches the national average says it all. Whatever we are doing is not working  

[The Folk Prophet]

However this is not what happens. I went to what was once Ricks college and the perception that they can get married and somehow everything will work out was pervasive then and is now. 

 

The problem isn't with the attitude of pressing forward without sure knowledge (sure knowledge is also not faith). The problem is pressing forward and then not doing what they can to succeed. There's nothing wrong with getting married without a solid plan in place from marriage vows to death. As estradling75 said, all you really need is basic paying jobs to start out (with a plan for increasing that via education and the like). There is a problem with jumping into marriage with no plan whatsoever, and no intent to work to succeed.

 

So I don't disagree with you as to the problem, but I think the reasons behind the problems stem from different things than you seem to.

 

​The simple fact that the divorce rate in the church approaches the national average says it all. Whatever we are doing is not working  

 

This is a logical fallacy. I would contend that the reason the divorce rate is increasing is because of the downplay of the importance of family, not because people are getting married too young.

 

Either way, you'd best support a view like that with some logical, statistical, empirical backing. Just claiming it doesn't hold much water.

[estradling75]

Culture based on a flawed understanding of principals is of course going to be be flawed.

 

The problem is (as amply shown in this thread even) that when one sees and tries to nudge people down the straight and narrow path is that they tend to over react.  They assume you mean it to go to the other extreme.  Then they either go to the other extreme or do their own nudge back the other way (which is seen as another over reaction)

[The Folk Prophet]

The problem is (as amply shown in this thread even) that when one sees and tries to nudge people down the straight and narrow path is that they tend to over react.  They assume you mean it to go to the other extreme.  Then they either go to the other extreme or do their own nudge back the other way (which is seen as another over reaction)

 

Thank you!

 

And, yes, I admit culpability along these lines.

[Suzie]

Faith is EXACTLY what will feed and cloth spouse and babies.

 

Faith, as is well known, is an action word, and is dead without works.

 

Claiming faith, on the other hand, and then proceeding to ignore the counsel given by the church to be self-sufficient, gain an education, stay out of debt, etc., is no faith at all.

 

Refusing to see a doctor when sick because you have "faith" is not faith.

 

Faith is not equivalent to belief.

 

Figure of speech. I meant that if you do NOT have a job and the means to take care of a family and you get married even though you cannot cover your basic needs (let alone a spouse), hoping that after you get married " I have faith something will work out" is a very immature and irresponsible way (IMO) to approach a sacred covenant such as marriage.

 

But let me ask you concretely so I can understand your position better:

 

 Do you agree (as the quote stated) that a person should have the ability to provide financially for a family, the basic needs such as food, clothing and shelter before they pursue marriage?

[mrmarklin]

Seems like this whole thread as revolved around TFP trying to rationalize and justify his decisions to marry in college, take on a load of debt and (I assume) have children while doing all this!

 

I sincerely hope you have a successful career and are able to overcome some of the burdens you have taken on for yourself. :)

They were unnecessary.

 

Most of all, I hope you're happy.

[The Folk Prophet]

 Do you agree (as the quote stated) that a person should have the ability to provide financially for a family, the basic needs such as food, clothing and shelter before they pursue marriage?

 

It's an interesting thought with a lot of semantic play in the meanings going into the views.

 

At a very basic level, the answer is yes. I do agree.

 

However, I believe that the ability to provide basic needs such as food, clothing, and shelter, takes about as long as it takes to go get a minimum wage job somewhere. Who is incapable of that?

 

I also don't see why someone could not be pursuing getting said job at the same time as dating and considering the future. I do not read unemployed as ineligible for thinking about marriage, particularly when the intent of looking for work is to prepare oneself.

 

And, certainly, if the approach is to get that minimum wage job and then retire from it 50 years later, then there's a problem. Though, frankly, that's less related to marriage than it is to basic self improvement and reliance (which, of course, becomes a part of marriage when you are responsible for others...but problematic for a single person as well).

[omegaseamaster75]

It's an interesting thought with a lot of semantic play in the meanings going into the views.

 

At a very basic level, the answer is yes. I do agree.

 

However, I believe that the ability to provide basic needs such as food, clothing, and shelter, takes about as long as it takes to go get a minimum wage job somewhere. Who is incapable of that?

 

 

 

A minimum wage job does not pay for basic needs. If you make say 10.00/hr that's $20,800.00 per year (gross). Please explain how to be self sufficient on that wage.

[Suzie]

It's an interesting thought with a lot of semantic play in the meanings going into the views.

 

At a very basic level, the answer is yes. I do agree.

 

 

Yay! We agree on something! lol

 

 

However, I believe that the ability to provide basic needs such as food, clothing, and shelter, takes about as long as it takes to go get a minimum wage job somewhere. Who is incapable of that?

 

If both are working minimum wage jobs perhaps they can maintain each other but children? Not sure. Rent, food, clothes, health, transportation?...hmmmmm.

 

 

 

I I do not read unemployed as ineligible for thinking about marriage, particularly when the intent of looking for work is to prepare oneself.

 

Being unemployed does not make you ineligible to think about anything you want but actually getting married if you are unemployed it is both unwise and irresponsible, IMO and I think the quote I provided earlier on supports that view (the one about having the ability to care for a family).

[Suzie]

A minimum wage job does not pay for basic needs. If you make say 10.00/hr that's $20,800.00 per year (gross). Please explain how to be self sufficient on that wage.

 

You will have to eat lots of Top Ramen noodles.

[Guest]

 Do you agree (as the quote stated) that a person should have the ability to provide financially for a family, the basic needs such as food, clothing and shelter before they pursue marriage?

 

This may be a response affected by my culture.  But here's my 2 cents.

 

Let's take 1 single person.  He still has to find the ability to provide all his temporal needs regardless of whether he is married or not.

 

Let's take the other single person.  She still has to find the ability to provide for all her temporal needs regardless of whether she is married or not.

 

If they are not capable, they remain under the support of their parents (I am going to assume that all y'all don't kick your kids out of the house at age 18 regardless of whether they can support themselves or not).

 

Now, what changes if they got married?  NOTHING.

 

They would both still have to figure out how to support themselves.  BUT... now they can do it together.  They can share the shelter, share the food, share any and all resources one to the other.  2 people finding resources and not only temporally but more importantly, spiritually supporting each other in the process.

 

What if they are not capable?  Same thing.  They remain under the support of their parents just like when they are single.

 

My oldest brother did not move out of my parents' house until he saved up enough money to rent his own place - his son was 7 months old by this time.  My sister didn't move out until she and her husband got approved for US visas - they had 2 children by this time.  My other brother did not move out of my parents' house until he was nearing 40 with 3 children because him and his wife were still in medical school.  I moved out when I graduated from college... I have been working since I was 12 and had my own money.  I sent money to my parents to add to their resources.  In this manner, we are all socialists - we put all our resources under one pot and we support whoever in the family needs it until they have the means to get their own house.

 

Now, the only reason then to postpone marriage is if you can't risk getting pregnant.  But, in American Society - the risk of getting pregnant when single is the same as when married...

 

So... am I saying you should get married even if you're destitute?  No.  I didn't say that.  All I said is - marriage is not dependent on the amount of money you have.  It is dependent on finding that eternal companion who vows to walk through life with you in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer, forever and ever and ever.