do apostates "deny the spirit!"

[priesthoodpower]

 

My wife had a witness of the spirit and its truthfulness and now is in total opposition of it, technically i feel that her actions and words cause her to "deny the spirit."

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by priesthoodpower

[Vort]

Whether or not your wife has denied the Holy Ghost is not your problem. (And I can almost guarantee you, she has not.)

[StallionMcBeastly]

I would say that just because she doesnt subscribe to the Mormon view of deity does not mean she has denied the spirit. She still believes in a loving God.

[Saul Hudson]

She is probably going to go through one of the worst and best experiences of her life. She will be deceived for a time, but then will learn to hate the darkness for what it is and come back into the light. Why? Because she has no where else to go. If she still loves God and feels that He loves her, then He will bring her back. Where will she go to find the peace and love and full spirit that she used to feel. Where will the doctrines and purity of the gospel be found other than here? She will one day miss that, because just having the thought of a loving God isn't enough when she will one day remember the full glory of the spirit.

 

You be humble, you pray every day, and you let your light so shine so that her soul will remember what it feels like.

[priesthoodpower]

thank you so much, u guys are awesome, those are the best answers and I really needed the support.

[The Folk Prophet]

She is probably going to go through one of the worst and best experiences of her life. She will be deceived for a time, but then will learn to hate the darkness for what it is and come back into the light. Why? Because she has no where else to go. If she still loves God and feels that He loves her, then He will bring her back. Where will she go to find the peace and love and full spirit that she used to feel. Where will the doctrines and purity of the gospel be found other than here? She will one day miss that, because just having the thought of a loving God isn't enough when she will one day remember the full glory of the spirit.

 

I'm not meaning to just argue...but the idea that every "apostate" is going through one of the best experiences of their life seems a mighty stretch to me. The idea that you could possibly know that she will exercise her agency as you describe also strikes me as entirely unknowable.

 

You be humble, you pray every day, and you let your light so shine so that her soul will remember what it feels like.

 

This, however, is spot on.

[Blackmarch]

my wife no longer believes in the church doctrines or prophets but still feels that there is a God and God loves her, she threw away her garments and considers herself a non-member but hasnt gone so far to ask that her name be removed from the records of the church. 

 

at what point do we consider leaving the church and going into an apostate state as "denying the spirit?"

 

my wife had a witness of the spirit and its truthfulness as she was born and raised/ served a mission and now is in total opposition of it, technically i feel that her actions and words cause her to "deny the spirit."

 

- JS never saw God/JC

- bk of mormon false

- all the LDS prohets are frauds

- the mormons culture causes its members to be fake two faced phonies.

that's god's call. all sin is of that same spirit of denial of some portion or another- however what Christ was talking about was the ultimate or complete form of it.

paraphrasing- but it would be like going out looking at the sun and saying it doesnt exist. (and then generally going about seeking the destruction of all who say it does, or seeking the destruction of it itself).

so i'd say no she's not at that point... supposing she ever had the revelations to know that much about God in the first place.

[Guest]

To deny the Spirit is to have full knowledge of the Spirit... I don't think your wife has reached that point.

 

Don't worry about whether she's in church or not or what religion she believes or not believe in anymore.  The only important thing is that she keep searching, diligently, humbly, and honestly, for Truth in all things.

 

You just need to love her with all your heart and support her in that search... wherever it may lead. 

[The Folk Prophet]

How is it that we preach leaving judgement to God but then feel comfortable judging someone?

 

Saying someone isn't going to hell is just as judgmental as saying someone is.

 

I say we leave such judgment to God...good and bad...righteousness and wickedness.

Edited December 10, 2014 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest Godless]

You be humble, you pray every day, and you let your light so shine so that her soul will remember what it feels like.

She will be deceived for a time, but then will learn to hate the darkness for what it is and come back into the light. Why? Because she has no where else to go. If she still loves God and feels that He loves her, then He will bring her back. Where will she go to find the peace and love and full spirit that she used to feel. Where will the doctrines and purity of the gospel be found other than here? She will one day miss that, because just having the thought of a loving God isn't enough when she will one day remember the full glory of the spirit.

 

Having grown up in (and left) the church, it was always my observation  (and personal experience) that most apostates don't come back. Some of them do. Others will find the light they seek in a different Christian denomination. But to suggest that a return to the LDS fold is inevitable is misleading and absolutely false.

 

I'm not meaning to just argue...but the idea that every "apostate" is going through one of the best experiences of their life seems a mighty stretch to me.

 

It never seems that way in the moment, but in retrospect it certainly can. Leaving the LDS church was one of the most painful experiences I've ever had, but it was also one of the best in retrospect.

 

It was horrible because I was terrified at the thought of letting go of all the things that had been taught to me as truths from the day I was born. It created a spiritual void that I didn't know how to fill. It left me with more questions than answers.

 

It was wonderful because it liberated me from a culture that I was growing increasingly uncomfortable and incompatible with. It forced me to dig deep and find my own convictions rather than feeding off those of my parents. It made me see the world in a way that made sense to me. It took me a few years to see this side of the apostate coin, but doing so was a big step towards finding peace in a new worldview.

[Guest]

How is it that we preach leaving judgement to God but then feel comfortable judging someone?

 

Saying someone isn't going to hell is just as judgmental as saying someone is.

 

I say we leave such judgment to God...good and bad...righteousness and wickedness.

 

I don't see a post here that says anything about whether she's going to hell or not going to hell... what did I miss?

[Guest Godless]

How is it that we preach leaving judgement to God but then feel comfortable judging someone?

 

Saying someone isn't going to hell is just as judgmental as saying someone is.

 

I say we leave such judgment to God...good and bad...righteousness and wickedness.

 

This entire thread is based on the LDS belief that "denying the spirit" is the worst sin a person can commit, and the only unforgivable one. Anatess and Blackmarch aren't making judgements, but rather clarifying this particular doctrine. The truth of the matter is that, according to LDS teachings, there are an extremely select few people who have lived throughout the entire course of human history that are even capable of committing this sin. It requires a PERFECT knowledge (not faith) of god's existence and the truth of his gospel, meaning you have to literally have been in his presence. By this standard, the typical apostate has not committed that unforgivable sin. They have simply denied something that they previously had faith in, but never received absolute confirmation of.

[The Folk Prophet]

This entire thread is based on the LDS belief that "denying the spirit" is the worst sin a person can commit, and the only unforgivable one. Anatess and Blackmarch aren't making judgements, but rather clarifying this particular doctrine. The truth of the matter is that, according to LDS teachings, there are an extremely select few people who have lived throughout the entire course of human history that are even capable of committing this sin. It requires a PERFECT knowledge (not faith) of god's existence and the truth of his gospel, meaning you have to literally have been in his presence. By this standard, the typical apostate has not committed that unforgivable sin. They have simply denied something that they previously had faith in, but never received absolute confirmation of.

 

When it moves into judgement is when we start saying someone is or is not a candidate. That's between them and God.

 

I do have issues with the typical view of what this all means based on teachings in the Book of Mormon...so I'll grant a bias. But saying someone is or is not a candidate is not our place.

[Guest]

When it moves into judgement is when we start saying someone is or is not a candidate. That's between them and God.

 

I do have issues with the typical view of what this all means based on teachings in the Book of Mormon...so I'll grant a bias. But saying someone is or is not a candidate is not our place.

 

I still don't understand you...

 

Is it the... "I don't think she has reached this place yet"... that triggered this response?

 

That's not judging her candidacy... that's giving the OP comfort based on my understanding of gospel principles.

 

Similar statements:

"I don't think she broke the WOW when she ate vanilla ice cream... or drank Coke... ".

 

You can argue the basis of this statement according to what the WOW actually means... but... it's something else to tell me I'm judging her eternal destination from that statement.

[The Folk Prophet]

I still don't understand you...

 

Is it the... "I don't think she has reached this place yet"... that triggered this response?

 

That's not judging her candidacy... that's giving the OP comfort based on my understanding of gospel principles.

 

Similar statements:

"I don't think she broke the WOW when she ate vanilla ice cream... or drank Coke... ".

 

You can argue the basis of this statement according to what the WOW actually means... but... it's something else to tell me I'm judging her eternal destination from that statement.

 

Really my contention is over what may or may not qualify someone, and what those so-called "gospel principles" are that keep getting mentioned. Yeah...I know the quotes. I'm not sure they're doctrinal.

 

I say we simply leave placement of kingdoms (or lack thereof) entirely to God and don't give "comfort" that is potentially false. We simply have no idea where God will place any given person who has apostatized from the gospel. Leave it to Him. Our job is merely to do our best to help bring them back to the fold.

 

But...I'll also admit that I may be picking a debate based on ideas that aren't directly correlated to the intentions of your and other's posts. And I'm arguing something that is more theoretical than practical. So... Probably not particularly useful in the end. Sorry.

[mrmarklin]

 

 

at what point do we consider leaving the church and going into an apostate state as "denying the spirit?"

 

my wife had a witness of the spirit and its truthfulness as she was born and raised/ served a mission and now is in total opposition of it, technically i feel that her actions and words cause her to "deny the spirit."

 

- JS never saw God/JC

- bk of mormon false

- all the LDS prohets are frauds

- the mormons culture causes its members to be fake two faced phonies.

You state that your wife had a witness of the spirit because she was raised Mormon and went on a mission.  That doesn't mean she ever had a real testimony. 

 

There are a lot of what I call "social Mormons" that go along to get along, so to speak.  Many here in California.  

 

Some want to return to Utah to feel comfortable in society and in their religion as well. 

 

I've known several Mormons that as soon as they left Utah and their families went immediately "inactive" and do nothing in the church.

 

So the idea that your wife is sinning against the spirit is likely very far fetched.

[Guest]

Really my contention is over what may or may not qualify someone, and what those so-called "gospel principles" are that keep getting mentioned. Yeah...I know the quotes. I'm not sure they're doctrinal.

 

I say we simply leave placement of kingdoms (or lack thereof) entirely to God and don't give "comfort" that is potentially false. We simply have no idea where God will place any given person who has apostatized from the gospel. Leave it to Him. Our job is merely to do our best to help bring them back to the fold.

 

But...I'll also admit that I may be picking a debate based on ideas that aren't directly correlated to the intentions of your and other's posts. And I'm arguing something that is more theoretical than practical. So... Probably not particularly useful in the end. Sorry.

 

I'm still not understanding this.  I didn't say where the soul is headed... but that beside the point, what gospel principle are we talking about that's not doctrinal?  Are you trying to say that you can deny the Spirit even without knowledge of the Spirit?  I'm not sure I get this.

Edited December 10, 2014 by anatess

[paulsifer42]

I don't recall the origin of the quote, but it's something like, denying the Holy Ghost means you are staring at the sun and saying it does not shine.  From what I understand, it's pretty tough.

[The Folk Prophet]

I'm still not understanding this.  I didn't say where the soul is headed... but that beside the point, what gospel principle are we talking about that's not doctrinal?  Are you trying to say that you can deny the Spirit even without knowledge of the Spirit?  I'm not sure I get this.

 

Actually, I'm not sure I am entirely prepared in my own thinking concerning the matter to really get into it. But the sense I get from the Book of Mormon is that there may well be a whole lot more cast into outer darkness than we like to believe. The principles I'm referring to are the ones that state otherwise -- that it will be exceedingly rare, that only those who have literally seen Christ qualify, etc... As I said, I'm not in a position to back that up. But I'll dig into the debate if you'd like. As long as it's with the clear understanding that the position I hold on the matter is one of the least secure I've ever held.

[priesthoodpower]

On 12/10/2014 at 6:44 AM, Godless said:

This entire thread is based on the LDS belief that "denying the spirit" is the worst sin a person can commit, and the only unforgivable one. Anatess and Blackmarch aren't making judgements, but rather clarifying this particular doctrine. The truth of the matter is that, according to LDS teachings, there are an extremely select few people who have lived throughout the entire course of human history that are even capable of committing this sin. It requires a PERFECT knowledge (not faith) of god's existence and the truth of his gospel, meaning you have to literally have been in his presence. By this standard, the typical apostate has not committed that unforgivable sin. They have simply denied something that they previously had faith in, but never received absolute confirmation of.

Thank you!

Edited August 10, 2020 by priesthoodpower

[Gingernut]

I was in the same position as your wife, I didn't stop beleiving in God, but I was influenced by others and I stopped believing in the theology and doctrines that were uniquely LDS, but in God, I still believed, I still had faith in  Jesus Christ as my saviour, I  joined  and left several different churches over the years,I was  searching, I eventually I returned to the Church. I  now have a strong testimony,Stronger than I had ever had before I left the church, I spent all that time trying to find what i'd lost somewhere else, then rediscovered it where I first had it, sometimes we don't realise what we have until we loose it. Sometimes you have to walk down the wrong path and experience the dead end for yourself to then realise that the path you were  previously travelling on was the right one. That is not denying the Holy Ghost, To be in that catagory, you would knowingly walk down the dead end, telling others to do likewise, whilst knowing you were leading them to a dead end.This is what Satan does.

[priesthoodpower]

What role did other people close to you (spouse,sibling,parents etc..) play in your coming back to the LDS church?

Edited August 10, 2020 by priesthoodpower

[Guest Godless]

ps* hey Godless if you left the LDS church why are you still hanging around in a LDS forum when you could be in an athiest forum learning more about your new direction in life?

 

Religion in general has always been a topic of interest for me, albeit more from an intellectual standpoint than a spiritual one. I've actually spent a great deal of time on other religious forums, ranging from Christian-centric to more atheist-centric. I was even active on a "recovery" site (more of an angry bash-fest) for ex-mormons for a little while in the early stages of my apostasy. I initially came to this site because I felt that the best way to help my "recovery" would be to face the LDS community head-on as an outsider. It was a very refreshing perspective for me. I continue to come here because I like most of the people here and I still enjoy discussing LDS doctrine occasionally even though I no longer embrace it.

[Guest]

Religion in general has always been a topic of interest for me, albeit more from an intellectual standpoint than a spiritual one. I've actually spent a great deal of time on other religious forums, ranging from Christian-centric to more atheist-centric. I was even active on a "recovery" site (more of an angry bash-fest) for ex-mormons for a little while in the early stages of my apostasy. I initially came to this site because I felt that the best way to help my "recovery" would be to face the LDS community head-on as an outsider. It was a very refreshing perspective for me. I continue to come here because I like most of the people here and I still enjoy discussing LDS doctrine occasionally even though I no longer embrace it.

 

And besides, we don't want Godless to go... he's one of those pillars here like PrisonChaplain that I would sorely miss if he stops posting.

[Misshalfway]

Well, I think everyone has done a great job clarifying what "denying the holy ghost" means and I really hope the OP can relax any fears on that score.

 

I think some of the other comments are interesting.  Reassurance is a good thing.  And encouraging prayer on behalf others is good too.  But we can't control people with prayer.  We can't make them feel or do or want the things we want them to feel, do, or want.  

 

And I'll also add  that I feel a little "twinge" of pain when I hear this man's wife referred to as an "apostate".  I've never been one for labels.  When they help us understand a concept or a problem, they are helpful.  But when put onto people I get uncomfortable. She's a person, just like the rest of us, who is trying to figure things out.

 

So, to the OP, I think you are scared. And why wouldn't you be?  Your wife's decisions are shifting the ground beneath your feet.  But if you can, remember she is still a person who is still in process, learning/growing, and figuring things out.  Remember that danger is real but fear is generally a big giant liar.  Don't let fears teach you the truth of all things.  K?