Correct usage of thou/thee/thy/thine -- now with bonus material!

[Vort]

Most new Church members, and many longtime or even lifetime members, struggle with correctly using the so-called "divine pronouns" thou, thee, thy, and thine. But like most such matters, it's actually very easy once you understand the basic principles.

 

First, though, what is "thou"? Why does it even exist? We already have a word, "you", so why do we need another that means The Same Thing?

Because it doesn't mean the same thing. Thou is singular, meaning you use it only when you're talking to just one person. You, in contrast, is plural, meaning you use it only when talking to more than one person.

 

So, for example, Jesus said to Peter, "Simon, Simon, Satan hath desired to have you [meaning Peter and all the rest of Christ's disciples], that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for thee [meaning Peter, alone, just him], that thy faith fail not: and when thou [Peter] art converted, strengthen thy brethren [meaning all the rest of the people that Christ's initial you referred to]." We do the same thing with I (singular) and we (plural) and with he/she/it (singular) and they (plural).

 

When do we use "thou" and when "thee"? The grammatical explanation is that "thou" is a subject pronoun, like "I" or "we" or "he" or "she" or "they". In contrast, "thee" is an object pronoun, like "me" or "us" or "him" or "her" or "them".

 

So here's an easy way to tell whether to use "thou" or "thee": Recast the sentence to use "he" or "him". Which one should you use? If you would use "he", then say "thou"; if you would say "him", use "thee". So if I would thank him, then when praying, I will say "I thank thee". If I think he is merciful, then when praying I would say "Thou art merciful." Easy as that.

 

What's the difference between thy and thine? The easiest and best answer is: Use them exactly as you would use my and mine. If you do this, you will be right 100% of the time -- my / thy hand, the glory is mine / thine.

 

(The slightly more complicated answer is that in Jacobean English hundreds of years ago, mine and thine were also often -- but not always -- used when the words they modified began with a vowel sound, to make it flow better. So they might say Mine eldest son instead of My eldest son and Thine honor instead of Thy honor, since "eldest" and "honor" begin with vowel sounds. But we don't really do that today, so there's no need to do it in prayer, either.)

 

And now you know.

 

BONUS EXPLAINER: We English speakers modify our verbs very slightly when we speak. For example, we say I eat and you eat and we eat and they eat, but we say he eats and she eats and it eats. Why the extra "s"? That is a special verb modification called a conjugation. A few of our verbs are fairly extensively conjugated, such as the verb to be (I am, he/she/it is, we/you/they are), and a few aren't conjugated hardly at all (I/you/he/she/it/we/they must), but for the most part, just the he/she/it verb -- called the third-person singular -- gets conjugated by sticking an -s onto the end.

 

Verbs used with thou also get conjugated, usually by adding an -st or an -est onto the end. So we say thou knowest and thou seest. A few verbs have special (or irregular) forms, and you just have to learn them. The most common and obvious is the verb to be, conjugated as thou art (also past tense, thou wast or thou wert; both are correct).

 

BONUS BONUS EXPLAINER: The word ye is the actual original plural subject form: Ye love me. The word you was the object form of the pronoun: I love you. For some reason, around the time that English speakers began forgetting the difference between you and thee, they also began forgetting the difference between you and ye. As a result, "you" sort of took over all the meanings for ye, thou, and thee.

 

So now those other words look strange and useless to us, when in fact they are all sorts of useful. The fact that we don't have them means we need to make up other ways of expressing the same idea, so that now we have "y'all" or "you all" or "all y'all" in a desperate attempt to distinguish between singular and plural. In losing thou and its brothers, we have lost a lot in our language. But we still get to use these forms in prayer; that's a minor consolation, at least.

[Litzy]

I can hear the moaning of those who despise grammar...

 

I love it!

[PolarVortex]

The distinction between 2nd person singular and plural still survives in English if you look hard, as when we say "enjoy yourself" and "enjoy yourselves."

 

Your thou-talk reminds me of the shock I felt when I first read the Book of Mormon and came across all kinds of modern verbs with -st forms.  I could swear that I once read "thou experimentest" in the Book of Mormon somewhere, but I cannot find it now.  And anyway, that's not so odd... the word "experiment" is very old, even though it sounds modern to my ears. 

[NightSG]

Maybe we should all just pray in Hebrew so this won't be an issue...and only having a half dozen forms of a word in English will seem simple by comparison.

[Vort]

Bonus bonus bonus explainer: How on earth could people just "forget" the difference between thou and ye? Seriously, how is that even possible? Were the Anglo-Saxons just especially stupid or something?

 

No, not really. The problem isn't that the Anglo-Saxons were stupid; it's that they were conquered by the Normans, French-speaking people from the northwest region of France (called Normandy, surprisingly enough). With the Normans as kings, all sorts of French-based words got introduced into our language.

 

Consider animals and the meats they provide. The animals were raised by the common folk, who used the older native English terms to refer to them: pigs, sheep, cattle. But the meat was prepared and served to the royalty, who used the old French animal names to refer to the meat: porc, moton, boef. Thus we use the French-derived terms pork, mutton, and beef to describe the meat taken from the animals named with the English terms pig, sheep, and ox.

 

Not just words got imported, though. English speakers also imported some of the grammar used by their conquerors. In French spoken a thousand years ago, the king was considered of more value that just one mere peasant. So the king was not referred to with the singular pronoun tu, but with the plural pronoun vous. (This was called the royal plural, and is why a king or queen or prince or princess traditionally referred to himself/herself as we instead of I -- the famous royal We.) This came to be seen as an honorific, polite way to address others. So you would speak to your intimates using thou, but you would speak more formally or honorifically to strangers and to those of higher "station" using the plural ye or you.

 

Well, the peasants of medieval England didn't attend twelve years of school and were not instructed in the niceties of grammar. They knew what they spoke, and what they spoke was a language where you used "you" and "thou" in different but often confusing ways. So, eventually, the thou just got dropped altogether, and the subject form ye got subsumed along with the thou forms into the ubiquitous "you". And here we are today.

[PolarVortex]

I just reread the Wikipedia article on the T-V distinction, and they suggested that the French tutoie-moi! can't really be translated into modern English ("Please use the thou pronoun when addressing me"?) but that Call me by my first name! would be close enough.  Fascinating.

[Vort]

I just reread the Wikipedia article on the T-V distinction, and they suggested that the French tutoie-moi! can't really be translated into modern English ("Please use the thou pronoun when addressing me"?) but that Call me by my first name! would be close enough.  Fascinating.

 

I remember watching an Italian film at BYU not too long after my mission, where the female protagonist achingly demanded of the man she loved, "Dammi del tu!" ("Give me the tu!" or, in other words, "Use the intimate tu form when you talk to me instead of the formal and less intimate lei!") There is no good English translation for that, traditionally or otherwise, so the translation given in the subtitles was "Call me by my first name!" The theater erupted in laughter, and I was among those laughing. But in retrospect, I felt pretty stupid, because really, how else can you translate it?

[NightSG]

The distinction between 2nd person singular and plural still survives in English if you look hard, as when we say "enjoy yourself" and "enjoy yourselves."

 

Or "y'all" and "y'all all."  

[PolarVortex]

Or "y'all" and "y'all all."  

 

I am a native Texan and appreciate these pronouns very much, although I don't dare use them in California now.  My favorite wallpaper store in Houston was called All Y'all's Walls... what a great name!

 

But in retrospect, I felt pretty stupid, because really, how else can you translate it?

 

 

I guess you can't.  It's one of those hard-to-translate things, like trying to translate He was Terrified with a capital T! into languages that have no capital letters.  A Russian friend of mine claimed that Saturday Night Fever was untranslatable into Russian.  

[NeuroTypical]

Time to try to cause Vort pain.  I used to think rules of grammar were important.  Then I learned some of what Vort knows, and it dawned on me that the rules of grammar aren't important (at least not in English).  What is important, is the ability to convey meaning in a way the recipient can receive it, so that you are understood.  Once I internalized this change, I found it freeing.  I have become part of a small group of people on Facebook who, in complete anonymousness, talk to each other in a language that we mutually made up, without ever meeting each other.   Here's a true cut-and-paste example, along with translation into Vort-accepted English.

 

(Note - Person 1 is royalty and refers to herself in the 3rd person.  The contradictions inherent in the concept of a republic with a constitution, and a ruler speaking to a subject, are there for comedic effect and social commentary.)

 

 

Person 1: come kids lunko is not being the entertain to subtext now required entertain lunko

in the lunkar rebunblic constitution so law

 

Person 2: Lunna lunna I haz gotting nue middle-finger foan! Can do an entretine of sillyface watchink now. [insert random grouping of smileys].

Translation:

Come, children!  Luna is no longer feels the need to entertain her subjects.  You, subject, are now required to entertain her.  This has been added to the constitution of the Lunar republic, and henceforth has become law.  

 

Luna!  Luna!  I've recently obtained a new iPhone!  I will entertain you with an assortment of silly faces and graemlin icons - watch this!  [insert smileys]

 

 

 

(Note, the reply contains additional humor and social commentary in the juxtaposition of "iPhone" with "middle-finger foan", painting the picture of a subject, responding to his ruler in a way the ruler finds agreeable, while an outside observer finds the response insulting and sarcastic.)

[Vort]

Rules of grammar are important insofar as they expedite communication. If we have a form like "thou", we should know how to use it cleanly and efficiently so that others can understand us. This is especially true in public worship.

 

Past that, I too tend to be rather Chomskian in my linguistic outlook. (Which drives Sister Vort, a strict prescriptive adherent, crazy.)

[Palerider]

The numerous times a speaker has addressed these issues in a talk and right after ....person walks up to offer a prayer and uses improper prayer language during prayer. Makes me wonder if they were sleeping or knitting during talk. Lol

[PolarVortex]

Then I learned some of what Vort knows, and it dawned on me that the rules of grammar aren't important (at least not in English). 

 

(Woman rings doorbell to house and a little girl opens the door.)

 

Woman: Hello, little girl.  Is your mother home?

Little girl: She ain't home!

Woman: My, my!  Where's your grammar?

Little girl: She ain't home, neither!

[lagarthaaz]

It is very common for people in my ward to end their talks and testimonies with 'in the name of thy son...'   It's an English as a second language thing for them I think. 

[Vort]

It is very common for people in my ward to end their talks and testimonies with 'in the name of thy son...'   It's an English as a second language thing for them I think. 

 

I have worked hard over the years not to allow this to become a pet peeve. When people speak, they are usually more focused on what they're trying to express than on the words they're using. And I suppose most people just don't realize, or don't think about, what "thy Son Jesus Christ" actually means.

[Irishcolleen]

Now that I live in the South I know the correct usage is really:

 

you- singular

y'all- plural up to a few

all y'all- for a group of people.

[PolarVortex]

Don't forget that these forms are available as possessives, as in Y'all's dog got loose again!

 

I've also heard y'all used as a vocative: Y'all, shush down, there's a Dolly Parton song on the radio.  (= "O friends, shush down...")

 

Polar (born in North Texas)