davidstarfall Posted April 24, 2015 Report Share Posted April 24, 2015 One clarification I would like to make.. is that just because good things come as a result of something does not automatically make the thing good in and of itself.But if God tells me to do something, then it must inherently be good (assuming that I am indeed following the spirit and not making stuff up). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted April 26, 2015 Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 Being present at something does not automatically mean I condone it.Can you name an occasion other than a homosexual "wedding" when you freely attend a celebration of something you find not merely morally repugnant but actually destructive of society? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Fine.. we can go there...Lets say I attend this event. Exactly as you described. In fact.. I drove her there. I helped her get dressed. She enjoys it. I tell her that I am glad she is happy.I am there for my friend. I helped her with something that is important to her (similarly to driving my friend to pick up cigarettes).Why did I do this? Because I felt like it was the right thing to do. In fact I was prompted by the spirit to attend.This act of love strengthens our friendship and our bond. We grow closer. She comes upon hard times. She opens up to me. I am able to share my testimony. She is converted to the Gospel, gets sealed in the temple, and has a happy family. Or maybe.. while I'm there, someone in the audience attacks her and I am there to save her life, and she rethinks her life and joins the church.Apparently it was in God's plan that I be there for this person, so that eventually I could be a spiritual guide for them. My point is... relationships are an important of the gospel. So my relationship with my friend, and maybe even my attendance at their "sinful" event, may possibly end up being a turning point in their life, and helps them find the gospel, and return to God. Some of you may say that the spirit would never prompt you to do such a thing. And I would have to respectfully disagree with you. God works in mysterious ways. Therefore, I reject logic that says that attending such an event is inherently wrong and strictly always against God's will. Some might also argue that God being all powerful, would just make things such that I do not need to attend such an event. But I reject that notion as well. " Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it comethquickly, saith the Lord. Amen." Pa Pa and Leah 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David13 Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Or what if you are just enabling? You could just be enabling. Enabling is where the wife of the alcoholic bails him out of jail, lies to his boss about why he cannot come to work, and 100 or 1000 other things that enable him to live his life as an alcoholic and never get sober.Enabling is not where my friend hands me $20 and says David can you go get me a pack of cigarettes? And I say no. You should not be smoking. And today he doesn't smoke. Not enabling is where you say to the drunk no I won't give you a dollar. I will give you some advice. Get sober. Find a way. Or, let me show you a way.dc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Can you name an occasion other than a homosexual "wedding" when you freely attend a celebration of something you find not merely morally repugnant but actually destructive of society? And here we are... facing the elephant in the room. Because... if we really look deep in our hearts... I am quite positively sure that many of us here who are fine with attending a gay wedding doesn't really believe that gay marriages are morally repugnant and destructive of society... How much you wanna bet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bini Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 I personally don't believe same-sex relationships or same-sex couples with a family are destructive of (to) society. I think destructive people are destructive to society; that could be a heterosexual individual or a homosexual individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 I personally don't believe same-sex relationships or same-sex couples with a family are destructive of (to) society. I think destructive people are destructive to society; that could be a heterosexual individual or a homosexual individual. Vort, case in point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bini Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Vort, case in point. That's exactly why I posted it, it was in response to your 'bet' So yes, we do exist! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 I have not said much - but now I will respond. There are many things that human do that I do not support. For example, I do not support the consumption of alcohol. I have attended wedding where alcohol is served. I do not knowingly partake of the alcohol. One time I almost partook but the drink smelled funny - so I asked and when I found out what I was served I disposed of the drink - publicly declaring that I do not drink and requested water to toast the marriage. I also have known people that love to drink alcohol and take every opportunity to do so. The have asked me to drink with them - but I make it clear that I do not drink alcohol nor do I condone drinking alcohol. I believe, for the most part, that adults have the right to drink alcohol if they desire to do so. I have tried to hang with friends (and family) when they drink and do not find any comfort doing so. I have found it best to excuse myself when drinking becomes part of any events I attend. I have advised those I know and have input to - that they do not define themselves by their propensity to drink alcohol - unless they recognize the addiction and desire themselves to use restraint to overcome the habit and addiction. I feel much the same way about same sex attractions. I would not say that I would not ever addend a same sex wedding any more than I would celebrate alcohol. I would not de-friend someone because of a weakness - but neither would I celebrate their weakness regardless of how much they enjoy it. I do not know that I would never attend a same sex wedding - I have never been invited. If I am ever invited - it would not be to celebrate their weakness as something I find commendable. And I would not pretend otherwise should I attend. If knowing my stand they still desired I come - I would have to consider that possibility and others involved. To be clear I will do what ever I can to assist anyone desiring to overcome any weakness they have. I believe that no human has any obligation to support anyone doing something they personally find offensive. I am most concerned - especially with efforts to gain support of those that find something offensive - especially within the constructs of the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 I personally don't believe same-sex relationships or same-sex couples with a family are destructive of (to) society. I think destructive people are destructive to society; that could be a heterosexual individual or a homosexual individual. What do you define as destructive? Do you believe same-sex relationships are necessary and that society cannot exist or any necessary benefit to society is lost if there are no same-sex relationships? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bini Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 What do you define as destructive? Do you believe same-sex relationships are necessary and that society cannot exist or any necessary benefit to society is lost if there are no same-sex relationships? I generally define destructive as being malicious or causing harm. I don't believe same sex relationships are malicious or cause harm. Homosexuals are human like everyone else, and as such, some individuals will be malicious and harmful just as some heterosexuals will be malicious and harmful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 I generally define destructive as being malicious or causing harm. I don't believe same sex relationships are malicious or cause harm. Homosexuals are human like everyone else, and as such, some individuals will be malicious and harmful just as some heterosexuals will be malicious and harmful. Can you answer the second question? ---> Do you believe same-sex relationships are necessary and that society cannot exist or any necessary benefit to society is lost if there are no same-sex relationships? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bini Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Can you answer the second question? ---> Do you believe same-sex relationships are necessary and that society cannot exist or any necessary benefit to society is lost if there are no same-sex relationships?Sure. Of course I believe same-sex relationships are necessary. For homosexuals to be able to commit their life and express their love for a partner, a relationship is needed, and therefore it is beneficial to society as society is made up of all kinds of relationship dynamics - including those in the GLBT arena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 (edited) Sure. Of course I believe same-sex relationships are necessary. For homosexuals to be able to commit their life and express their love for a partner, a relationship is needed, and therefore it is beneficial to society as society is made up of all kinds of relationship dynamics - including those in the GLBT arena. I see - so you believe that if someone has same sex attractions - and does not commit their life and express their love for a partner - that they are destructive (refuse to be a benefit) to society and should somehow be removed or punished for the benefit of society? Edited April 29, 2015 by Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bini Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 I see - so you believe that if someone has same sex attractions - and does not commit their life and express their love for a partner - that they are destructive (refuse to be a benefit) to society and should somehow be removed or punished for the benefit of society? Where was this even implied? I am a huge supporter of the GLBT community, regardless, of if an individual wishes to be in a relationship or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Homosexuals are human like everyone else, People love to say this as if it has any meaning whatsoever -- like the criteria for good or evil, acceptable or unacceptable, destructive or beneficial, is being a human. Leah and Vort 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Can you name an occasion other than a homosexual "wedding" when you freely attend a celebration of something you find not merely morally repugnant but actually destructive of society?I went to a fundraiser for the Democratic party once...... bytor2112 and Vort 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 (edited) If homosexual relationships are not in keeping with the Gospel of Jesus Christ (and they are not) it IS destructive to society. It is the natural man, which is an enemy to God that causes some to justify or treat gross transgression as though it does no harm. I am of the belief that we will be held accountable for that which we deemed good, just or as doing no harm when it is obviously in opposition to Gods plan of Salvation. It is mind boggling how so many claim to be faithful Latter Day Saints and yet clearly have little understanding of the Gospel. ' The things of God are only understood by the power of the Holy Spirit.... Edited April 29, 2015 by bytor2112 Leah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Can you name an occasion other than a homosexual "wedding" when you freely attend a celebration of something you find not merely morally repugnant but actually destructive of society? And here we are... facing the elephant in the room.Because... if we really look deep in our hearts... I am quite positively sure that many of us here who are fine with attending a gay wedding doesn't really believe that gay marriages are morally repugnant and destructive of society...How much you wanna bet? Nothing. Doubtless this is true, even of nominally LDS members on this very list. But the statement to which I was responding was: Being present at something does not automatically mean I condone it. The implication here is that David (or someone else) might attend a homosexual "wedding" as a celebration of the "marriage" with the participants without actually condoning it. I do not believe this is a viable strategy, and thus asked for an example of another celebration of harm and societal decay that one willingly attends. omegaseamaster's humorous Democratic fundraiser notwithstanding, I haven't yet seen or thought of a reasonable answer to that. I think there is not one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 (edited) Nothing. Doubtless this is true, even of nominally LDS members on this very list. But the statement to which I was responding was: The implication here is that David (or someone else) might attend a homosexual "wedding" as a celebration of the "marriage" with the participants without actually condoning it. I do not believe this is a viable strategy, and thus asked for an example of another celebration of harm and societal decay that one willingly attends. omegaseamaster's humorous Democratic fundraiser notwithstanding, I haven't yet seen or thought of a reasonable answer to that. I think there is not one. Example: My mother attending the baptism of my son. This is, of course, a sad thing that my son's baptism is not in communion with the Catholic Church. But she went. She refused to attend my wedding and my baptism but she went to my son's baptism... but that's because, even if she doesn't condone both ordinances, she saw my wedding as death while she deemed my child innocent. In a mega view... she sees my wedding and baptism as societal decay, she didn't think the same of my son's baptism. Both things repugnant to a devout Catholic. Edited April 30, 2015 by anatess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 I haven't read through all of the posts, but it seems to me that we are viewing this from the view point that people are choosing to be gay. It may be that people are born this way, or with a tendency towards this behavior..ie SSA. I for one cannot imagine "choosing" this lifestyle, but if it is part of who you are, who are we to say that they should not have the same opportunities at happiness that "straight" individuals do? For the record I do not presume to know if people are born this way or if it is a conscious decision to live/have these attractions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 who are we to say that they should not have the same opportunities at happiness that "straight" individuals do? They do have the same opportunities for happiness, through the same means that brings happiness to anyone -- the ONLY means that brings happiness to anyone -- obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. Or are you implying that in the case of homosexuality wickedness is happiness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightSG Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 I treat people the way they treat me. Any minority status simply increases the pool of insults available when they annoy me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 They do have the same opportunities for happiness, through the same means that brings happiness to anyone -- the ONLY means that brings happiness to anyone -- obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. Or are you implying that in the case of homosexuality wickedness is happiness?Clearly the only true and lasting happiness is that of an eternal nature achieved only through the gospel of Jesus Christ made possible by his atoning sacrifice. I don't think that most people have the eternal expectation of happiness that you and I enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Clearly the only true and lasting happiness is that of an eternal nature achieved only through the gospel of Jesus Christ made possible by his atoning sacrifice. I don't think that most people have the eternal expectation of happiness that you and I enjoy. Exactly. And enjoying the greater knowledge that staring at the sun will blind you, I think it wise we continue to advocate against doing so, regardless of it offending all those sun-staring folk who demand that we're just bigots trying to deprive them of their happiness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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