Conversion of jews

[pam]

Which is why I mentioned Revelations previously, the two witnesses who are supposed to be Enoch and Elijah. I don't believe that they will be asking for permission to preach, and if the scripture passage is anything to go by they will be unable to stop them until God allows it, and then only for a few days as they are resurrected!

 

Just as a clarification.  Are you saying that the two witnesses that will preach are the same two witnesses that will preach for 3 1/2 years, be killed, lie in the streets for 3 days and be resurrected?  I would like references where it is said that it is Enoch and Elijah that will do this.

[Latter Days Guy]

But as Mormon we are required to obey the law of the land. Surely we would not break the law?

 

Are Enoch and Elijah Mormon?  Are the witnesses to obey the law of the land or do what God has instructed them to do?

[Sunday21]

I wonder if a church leader has addressed these issues. Clearly interesting times are ahead.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Sunday21

[Latter Days Guy]

Just as a clarification.  Are you saying that the two witnesses that will preach are the same two witnesses that will preach for 3 1/2 years, be killed, lie in the streets for 3 days and be resurrected?  I would like references where it is said that it is Enoch and Elijah that will do this.

 

Depends, I'm talking only about the two witnesses in Revelation 11. As for them being Enoch and Elijah, this has always been the traditional view held by most Christians as to who the two witness are.  Do a little google fu, its easy to find!

[Latter Days Guy]

I would if a church leader has addressed these issues. Clearly interesting times are ahead.

 

Would a church leader contradict two witnesses sent from God and prophesied of in scripture?

[Guest]

Those non-Jews living in Israel and even in the occupied territories are treated as 2nd class citizens, they have difficulties with travel within the country, and if they should want to leave to travel between different regions, say the West Bank and Gaza it can take  a long time to get the necessary travel documentation to do so. If you want to actually leave the country, often they will find that they are not allowed back in.  The harsh reality is, its not good to be a non-jew in Israel.

 

This is not true at least for Filipino Offshore Workers who changed citizenship who are mostly Roman Catholics.  They're quite a thriving bunch over there and Philippine-Israeli relations are quite good.

 

Travel between West Bank and Gaza are, of course, difficult.  West Bank and Gaza are not officially Israel.  It is an Israeli military occupied territory and under the provisions of the Geneva Convention, Israel is prohibited from transferring population from Israel to these disputed territories.  Therefore, travelling to the West Bank and Gaza have to go through the United Nations.  If you are an Israeli citizen, you can go anywhere in the world and come back to Israel.  If you're not an Israeli citizen, you have to apply for re-entry into Israel.  This is the exact same thing as a non-citizen traveling in and out of the United States.  Unless you crawl under the border in Mexico, it is quite difficult and lengthy process to gain entry or re-entry into the US and a lot more applicants are denied entry than there are accepted entries.  If it was that easy to gain entry or re-entry into the US, you'll be overrun by Filipinos.

 

The harsh reality is - Jews were killed by the millions in WWII and until today neighboring nations are still vowing to kill all Jews.  It is not difficult to understand why Jews default to the defensive position when it comes to non-Jews.

Edited August 28, 2015 by anatess

[Just_A_Guy]

Would a church leader contradict two witnesses sent from God and prophesied of in scripture?

 

The conventional LDS viewpoint is that these two witnesses are not the resurrected Enoch or Elijah or anyone else; they are new prophets who similarly possess the sealing power--probably members of the First Presidency or Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the LDS Church.  See, e.g., the Church's new student manual for New Testament institute courses.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Sunday21]

Are Enoch and Elijah Mormon?  Are the witnesses to obey the law of the land or do what God has instructed them to do?

Now that I think of it, we broke the law of the land for awhile with respect to polygamy. So yes we will break the law.

[Vort]

Now that I think of it, we broke the law of the land for awhile with respect to polygamy. So yes we will break the law.

 

I encourage you to reread OD1 at the back of the Doctrine and Covenants. The Saints left the US behind in order to live according to how God had commanded them. When they again became part of the US and the court of last resort ruled that polygamy was not legal, they withdrew the practice (or to be more specific, God withdrew the practice). Until that time, the Saints were perfectly justified in maintaining that there were in violation of no federal laws. Ironically, most today would probably agree with that legal assessment.

[Sunday21]

I encourage you to reread OD1 at the back of the Doctrine and Covenants. The Saints left the US behind in order to live according to how God had commanded them. When they again became part of the US and the court of last resort ruled that polygamy was not legal, they withdrew the practice (or to be more specific, God withdrew the practice). Until that time, the Saints were perfectly justified in maintaining that there were in violation of no federal laws. Ironically, most today would probably agree with that legal assessment.

What is OD1? Weren't Mormon leaders in hiding to avoid being arrested for polygamy? Suggesting that they were breaking he law? I know that eventually we conformed but I have been told repeatedly that we broke the law for some time.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Sunday21

[Just_A_Guy]

I encourage you to reread OD1 at the back of the Doctrine and Covenants. The Saints left the US behind in order to live according to how God had commanded them. When they again became part of the US and the court of last resort ruled that polygamy was not legal, they withdrew the practice (or to be more specific, God withdrew the practice). Until that time, the Saints were perfectly justified in maintaining that there were in violation of no federal laws. Ironically, most today would probably agree with that legal assessment.

 

I'm not sure I would agree with that rationale.  Bigamy, as I recall, was illegal under Illinois state law when Joseph Smith introduced plural marriage.  It was criminalized under federal law in 1862, almost thirty years before Reynolds and the Manifesto. 

 

I'm not quite comfortable with a rationale that says Church members are obligated to obey federal but not state law; or that Church members may ignore any law that hasn't yet been specifically upheld by the Supreme Court.  It strikes me as preferable to simply state that the general rule is to obey the law, while acknowledging that there may be rare circumstances where civil disobedience becomes appropriate and even necessary.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[The Folk Prophet]

I'm not sure I would agree with that rationale.  Bigamy, as I recall, was illegal under Illinois state law when Joseph Smith introduced plural marriage.  It was criminalized under federal law in 1862, almost thirty years before Reynolds and the Manifesto. 

 

I'm not quite comfortable with a rationale that says Church members are obligated to obey federal but not state law; or that Church members may ignore any law that hasn't yet been specifically upheld by the Supreme Court.  It strikes me as preferable to simply state that the general rule is to obey the law, while acknowledging that there may be rare circumstances where civil disobedience becomes appropriate and even necessary.

 

Going to amend your last statement a bit:

 

the general rule is to obey the law, while acknowledging that there will be, perhaps, increasingly common circumstances (eventually) where civil disobedience becomes appropriate and even necessary.

 

Of course, when that time comes, our leaders will duly inform us. So don't go out and start "breakin' the law, breakin' the law" quite yet.

[Just_A_Guy]

Of course, when that time comes, our leaders will duly inform us.

 

I hope they will, but I don't know that we can count on it.  During World War 2 Salt Lake never authorized European church members to harbor Jews, or to join their various underground resistance movements; but I doubt either of us would say that a Mormon who participated in such activities was acting wrongfully.

 

It may well be that we will be permitted--even expected?--to take the initiative as individuals, as such situations become more common.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[The Folk Prophet]

I hope they will, but I don't know that we can count on it.  During World War 2 Salt Lake never authorized European church members to harbor Jews, or to join their various underground resistance movements; but I doubt either of us would say that a Mormon who participated in such activities was acting wrongfully.

 

It may well be that we will be permitted--even expected?--to take the initiative as individuals, as such situations become more common.

 

Well then...let me just go and get my gun...

 

 

...got me some revoltin' to do.

 

  

[Latter Days Guy]

This is not true at least for Filipino Offshore Workers who changed citizenship who are mostly Roman Catholics.  They're quite a thriving bunch over there and Philippine-Israeli relations are quite good.

 

Travel between West Bank and Gaza are, of course, difficult.  West Bank and Gaza are not officially Israel.  It is an Israeli military occupied territory and under the provisions of the Geneva Convention, Israel is prohibited from transferring population from Israel to these disputed territories.  Therefore, travelling to the West Bank and Gaza have to go through the United Nations.  If you are an Israeli citizen, you can go anywhere in the world and come back to Israel.  If you're not an Israeli citizen, you have to apply for re-entry into Israel.  This is the exact same thing as a non-citizen traveling in and out of the United States.  Unless you crawl under the border in Mexico, it is quite difficult and lengthy process to gain entry or re-entry into the US and a lot more applicants are denied entry than there are accepted entries.  If it was that easy to gain entry or re-entry into the US, you'll be overrun by Filipinos.

 

The harsh reality is - Jews were killed by the millions in WWII and until today neighboring nations are still vowing to kill all Jews.  It is not difficult to understand why Jews default to the defensive position when it comes to non-Jews.

Cheap labour is cheap labour.  There was a thriving africa community until the population got a bit too large for Israelis to stomach, now they are rounded up and deported.  

So if the Israelis aren't allowed to transfer population from Israel to the occupied territory why is there over 400,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank?  Travel from the West Bank to Gaza has nothing to do with the UN either, free movement of people was one of the agreed terms of the Oslo accords from over 20 years ago.  The problem is Israel never honoured their commitments in the Oslo accords.

Yes they were killed by the millions but that doesn't mean that Israel gets a blank slate to do what ever it wants.  As for Israels neighbors they have offered a comprehensive peace deal since 2002, which of course Israel rejects.  The basics of that deal state the following:

 

(a) Complete withdrawal from the occupied Arab territories, including the Syrian Golan Heights, to the 4 June 1967 line and the territories still occupied in southern Lebanon; (b) Attain a just solution to the problem of Palestinian refugees to be agreed upon in accordance with the UN General Assembly Resolution No 194. © Accept the establishment of an independent and sovereign Palestinian state on the Palestinian territories occupied since 4 June 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital.

In return the Arab states will do the following: (a) Consider the Arab–Israeli conflict over, sign a peace agreement with Israel, and achieve peace for all states in the region; (b) Establish normal relations with Israel within the framework of this comprehensive peace.^[2]

The deal was and is still on the table, but Israel doesn't want to touch it as normalized relations with its neighbors isn't good for the cash cow that comes from playing the victim. 

[Vort]

So don't go out and start "breakin' the law, breakin' the law" quite yet.

 

I am shocked and appalled, TFP. Shocked and appalled.

 

[Latter Days Guy]

I am shocked and appalled, TFP. Shocked and appalled.

 

 

Judas Priest, one of my favourite metal bands!

[Vort]

Kids today would not even know what that rectangular object is that he's grasping.

[Latter Days Guy]

Kids today would not even know what that rectangular object is that he's grasping.

 

There are so many things like that, that kids today wouldn't have a clue about!  Oh the joys of getting old!

[hagoth]

Just as a clarification.  Are you saying that the two witnesses that will preach are the same two witnesses that will preach for 3 1/2 years, be killed, lie in the streets for 3 days and be resurrected?  I would like references where it is said that it is Enoch and Elijah that will do this.

As discussed in other threads here, if you examine the early parts of Revelation 11 and consider the power that was given there to the two witnesses, you may see that it parallels the power and authority that was previously given to Moses and Elijah (they were also the same two prophets who appeared to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration). I believe the passage in Revelation is simply saying that the two witnesses would come with the same authority as Moses and Elijah.

 

As to the timing, I don't believe it was meant to be understood as 3.5 years. Not even close. The text doesn't even say 3.5 years. Instead, it says 1260 days. Furthermore, as a glimpse as to how that is meant to be understood, in the very next chapter of the Bible (Revelation 12), Joseph translated the 1260 days there to be 1260 "years". There is a principle there. It might be worthwhile to do more than just pass that principle by without careful consideration.

 

To cite Elder Packer, "We are following the admonition of the Prophet Joseph Smith [who said]: 'I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves.'...We should not, according to the scriptures, need to be commanded in all things. (See D&C 58:26.)"

 

Does the principle revealed by Joseph in Revelation 12 also apply to Revelation 11? I'll let you decide.

While you're deciding, I suggest searching out the day-year principle in prophecy.

 

Thoughts? Impressions?

Edited September 1, 2015 by hagoth

[pam]

The conventional LDS viewpoint is that these two witnesses are not the resurrected Enoch or Elijah or anyone else; they are new prophets who similarly possess the sealing power--probably members of the First Presidency or Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the LDS Church.  See, e.g., the Church's new student manual for New Testament institute courses.

 

Thank you JAG. That is my understanding as well.

[Leah]

It will never change, Israel's policy is for a Jewish state, with only Jews as citizens.  Christians are treated almost as bad as Muslims in Israel which really makes me wonder why there is such support from mainly US churches for the state of Israel.

Your anti-Semitism is showing.

And to the OP - the correct spelling is Israel.

[Latter Days Guy]

Your anti-Semitism is showing.

And to the OP - the correct spelling is Israel.

 

Really?  How do you get that? Or are you saying that because I don't agree with the policies of the Israeli government with regards to its handling of the peace process, the treatment of its non-Jewish residents, its blatant dis-regard for UN resolutions and international law, that that makes me ant-Semitic?  Really?  Clutching at straws there!  Bring out the anti-Semitic card!

Lets get some facts straight here, I 100% agree that Israel has a right to exist, I 100% support that right for the Jewish people to have a place to call their home. I agree that they have a right to self defense and to respond in a proportional way towards those who attack them.  But I also support those same rights for the Palestinians, that they also have the right to self determination, to have a place that they can call home, to live within the boundaries of their own land.  

Does that make me anti-Semitic?

[Guest]

Cheap labour is cheap labour.

I'm going to bow out of this conversation. Calling Filipino workers cheap labor is an insult. We are not illegal immigrants picking lettuce.

There is none so blind as those who refuse to see. You're anti-Israel for some reason that do not make sense. If you or your family got killed by Jews, I'd understand the sentiment. But as quarterback commenters, I don't get it.

[The Folk Prophet]

I'm going to bow out of this conversation. Calling Filipino workers cheap labor is an insult. We are not illegal immigrants picking lettuce.

 

Of course, outsourcing to the Philippines itself is, indeed, cheap. The last job I lost was because the India company that I worked for lost their outsourcing contract to the Philippines, who were charging around $3 an hour for Quality Assurance work.