Syrian Refugees

[Blackmarch]

true. but the beggar at the door is easier to notice.

[askandanswer]

I'm struck by some of the similarities between the fleeing refugees and the fleeing Mormons, from Nauvoo to Salt Lake. Obviously, there are also quite a few major differences, but it is interesting to reflect on the similarities. 

[askandanswer]

 

But I would require that to come to this country that each individual must take a vow and promise before Allah (G-d) that they will abide by the laws that govern this land and not by Sharia Law – and that they will make known to local officials anyone advocating Sharia Law over our constitution or anyone trying to take revenge on another outside of our laws.  And that to not do so would forfeit all chances of their ever being in heaven.

 

I would make sure that the oath was ministered by a imam of their particular order in Islam.

 

 

 

Australia will be taking in 12,000 this year, starting in December. Each one of them will be required to make an oath regarding their committment to Australian values. I don't think the exact wording of the oath has been released yet. I believe the oath will be administered by a local public official, in much the same way as citizenship ceremonies for new citizens. I think its a great idea to have that oath administered by a local imam.

[Guest MormonGator]

Australia will be taking in 12,000 this year, starting in December. Each one of them will be required to make an oath regarding their committment to Australian values. I don't think the exact wording of the oath has been released yet. I believe the oath will be administered by a local public official, in much the same way as citizenship ceremonies for new citizens. I think its a great idea to have that oath administered by a local imam.

 Sorry to be the cynical jerk here, but maybe they'll lie on their oaths. Maybe they won't. Who knows? 

[Blackmarch]

 Sorry to be the cynical jerk here, but maybe they'll lie on their oaths. Maybe they won't. Who knows? 

obviously some will, more likely those who are in power positions who abuse the religion rather than live it. BUT there will be those who are earnest, and to those who the religion means something like that would hold more water than an outsider.

[NeuroTypical]

 Sorry to be the cynical jerk here, but maybe they'll lie on their oaths. Maybe they won't. Who knows? 

 

I once crashed a leadership meeting led by an apostle, who fielded the question "what if you suspect someone is lying in a temple recommend interview?".  He replied that unless the bishop/sp had concrete proof of lies, or the spirit flat out told them to not sign the recommend, they should sign it.  Because such matters are between the member and God.

 

Oaths can be kind of like that too.  

Edited September 22, 2015 by NeuroTypical

[Guest]

true. but the beggar at the door is easier to notice.

 

Hence, one shouldn't support policies that makes beggars.

[Guest]

I once crashed a leadership meeting led by an apostle, who fielded the question "what if you suspect someone is lying in a temple recommend interview?".  He replied that unless the bishop/sp had concrete proof of lies, or the spirit flat out told them to not sign the recommend, they should sign it.  Because such matters are between the member and God.

 

Oaths can be kind of like that too.  

 

The marked difference is... the consequence.

 

The consequence of giving a temple recommend to an oath breaker is simply the destruction of one soul.

 

The consequence of giving entry to an Islamic oath breaker is... a blown up World Trade Center.

[Blackmarch]

The marked difference is... the consequence.

 

The consequence of giving a temple recommend to an oath breaker is simply the destruction of one soul.

 

The consequence of giving entry to an Islamic oath breaker is... a blown up World Trade Center.

mass murdering is probably a good way to destroy one's soul.

[NeuroTypical]

All valid points.  

 

So's mine.  Earthly existence includes population shifts into land 'owned' by other people.  The first issues along these lines occur in Genesis, and they haven't stopped yet.

 

You guys figure out how to solve the problems you're identifying, and I will personally mail you a dollar.

[Blackmarch]

All valid points.  

 

So's mine.  Earthly existence includes population shifts into land 'owned' by other people.  The first issues along these lines occur in Genesis, and they haven't stopped yet.

 

You guys figure out how to solve the problems you're identifying, and I will personally mail you a dollar.

what no nobel prize???

[Guest]

Like the Nobel even means anything anymore.

[cdowis]

Hence, one shouldn't support policies that makes beggars.

 

But politicians know that beggars will vote for those who give them stuff.

[cdowis]

This is a video recently released from the church.  

 

https://youtu.be/KtlfTRflKjk

Edited September 26, 2015 by cdowis

[Just_A_Guy]

All valid points.  

 

So's mine.  Earthly existence includes population shifts into land 'owned' by other people.  The first issues along these lines occur in Genesis, and they haven't stopped yet.

 

You guys figure out how to solve the problems you're identifying, and I will personally mail you a dollar.

 

In a fallen world, it may well be that we can't "solve" these problems.  And even if we can--keeping those problems from spreading into our own backyards seems like a decent starting point.

 

Those who keep pointing out that European immigrants to the Americas were "illegal immigrants", tend to forget that the regimen didn't work out so well for the Native Americans. 

Edited September 26, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I saw this quote recently, and thought of the refugees:

 

“Indolent and unworthy the beggar may be—but that is not your concern: It is better, said Joseph Smith, to feed ten impostors than to run the risk of turning away one honest petition.” ― Hugh Nibley, Approaching Zion

[Guest]

I saw this quote recently, and thought of the refugees:

 

“Indolent and unworthy the beggar may be—but that is not your concern: It is better, said Joseph Smith, to feed ten impostors than to run the risk of turning away one honest petition.” ― Hugh Nibley, Approaching Zion

 

Yes, this works very well for personal conviction.  It doesn't work out very well for government policy.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

True about the government, but I hear a lot of people (in general) talking about this situation that don't seem to agree with this quote at all...in personal convictions either. 

[Guest]

True about the government, but I hear a lot of people (in general) talking about this situation that don't seem to agree with this quote at all...in personal convictions either. 

 

Yeah.  I agree with you.  It wasn't too long ago that we had an RS lesson where people were saying that they ignore people asking for help now because they've had an experience where some guy at a parking lot asked for $2 to buy gas because they just need to get home or something and then the next day they see the same guy hit them up for $2 again using the same excuse.  I was one of the few that said the sin is on the guy hood-winking us... it shouldn't change our desire to help those we think need it.

[beefche]

But, there's other ways to help people besides give them money on the street.  I'm not disparaging anyone who wants and does give to beggers on the street.  But, I personally choose to help people in other ways besides give money to those on the street.  

[Ironhold]

Anime News Network (no direct link because some of the site's content is risque) is reporting about a major social media uproar going on in Japan right now. Back on September 10th, an already controversial artist published a drawing claiming that the refugees aren't seeking freedom but the right to live in freedom on other peoples' money. This isn't the first time the artist in question has provoked others through her artwork, but because it's so topical and involves platforms like Facebook & Twitter it's gotten attention on both sides of the Pacific.

[NeuroTypical]

The whole cardboard sign/need gas for my car phenomenon is interesting.

 

There are plenty of individuals, couples, even entire families who panhandle as a way of supporting themselves and enabling their lifestyle.  My wife is pretty darn observant of body language, and she points out the professionals to me.  Folks will pick a target, say a WalMart, or a church building with lots of people going in and out.  They'll assign family members to cover various doors, or plan out the route they'll take through the parking lot or around the store.  They'll have their story down, and it may well be an honest story.

 

"I'm trying to get my family to Oklahoma to see grandpa before he dies.  I got laid off last month, and we just need the gas to get there."  Totally, absolutely honest.  Except that you're his fourth stop today, he's got five more after you, and the gas money got covered 5 minutes into his first stop of the day.  

 

And after OK happens, the story will be "I'm trying to get my family to Nevada where I've got work lined up starting next month, and my car broke down."  And that will be honest also.  The spin lies in the amount of emotional spin and urgency woven into the tail.  There's Adrenalin running - but it's not because the situation is urgent, it's because dood has to be in and out in 10 minutes, because he's got to hit six more locations before everyone meets for dinner to count the spoils.  And the work lined up is with a casino that lets employees eat free, to stretch their party budget out more.

 

You don't need to call them out on being an impostor.  You can still offer to help.

 

Need gas?  Ok - meet me at the station across the street with your car - I'll fill it up for you.  

 

Family hungry?  Ok - here's direction to the soup kitchen.  Here's the toll-free number for the services in your area that can help you out.  No cell phone?  Ok, let's go sit down over there and you can use mine.  15 minutes and they'll have you set up.  

 

Result - when they take you up on your offer, it may have been a legitimate need.  If they turn you down or never show, it was probably because that spending time doing what you proposed would cut down on the profitability of his stop.  Why give up $100 in donations just to get a tank of gas?

[Ironhold]

The artist behind the controversial image has removed the image at the request of the photographer whose photo she used as the basis for the design.

She still stands by her sentiment, however, but the image is gone.

[Just_A_Guy]

You don't need to call them out on being an impostor.  You can still offer to help.

 

Need gas?  Ok - meet me at the station across the street with your car - I'll fill it up for you.  

 

Family hungry?  Ok - here's direction to the soup kitchen.  Here's the toll-free number for the services in your area that can help you out.  No cell phone?  Ok, let's go sit down over there and you can use mine.  15 minutes and they'll have you set up.  

 

Result - when they take you up on your offer, it may have been a legitimate need.  If they turn you down or never show, it was probably because that spending time doing what you proposed would cut down on the profitability of his stop.  Why give up $100 in donations just to get a tank of gas?

 

I did that once with a panhandler at the old Crossroads mall in downtown SLC.  We went into the food court, and he promptly went to I-don't-remember-where and ordered the most expensive thing on the menu.  Set me back $15 or so, and I thought never again.

 

These days, I appreciate creativity more than pathos.  A scruffy-looking guy outside a McDonald's the other day had a coffee can and a cardboard sign that simply said, "Too ugly to be a call girl".  He had my sympathy!

Edited October 12, 2015 by Just_A_Guy