Are Mormons materialists?

[lonetree]

By materialists - I am referring here -not- to any moral sense of the word, but to the way LDS members regard the world around them. IE This world is ultimately made of matter, and also is the way we make sense of it. We apprehend this directly through our senses. I believe Materialism is also called Realism. What initially made me think about this was some writings read years ago by Parley Pratt. (Actually, called The Essential Parley P Pratt.) And I've been revisiting some other materialist writings also recently. Anyway, thoughts? 

[pkstpaul]

We are also taught that all things are made spritually before they are made materially.

[Jane_Doe]

Yes*.  

 

We believe that all things are matter in some form, even spirits as highly refined matter (there's a D&C reference for this).  This relates to science, because energy and matter are the same thing ultimately (e=mc2).   Everything in this world was made spiritually first, then in more course physical matter.  Our physical world and physical bodies are not something evil to be discarded (like some Stargate ascension), but something for us to master for Good.  

 

 

*Admittedly, I totally not an expert on this.

[lonetree]

Yes*.  

 

We believe that all things are matter in some form, even spirits as highly refined matter (there's a D&C reference for this).  This relates to science, because energy and matter are the same thing ultimately (e=mc2).   Everything in this world was made spiritually first, then in more course physical matter.  Our physical world and physical bodies are not something evil to be discarded (like some Stargate ascension), but something for us to master for Good.  

 

 

*Admittedly, I totally not an expert on this.

 

I did not know about the belief that things were made spiritually before they are made materially. I looked up the reference you referred to(?). D&C 131.7,8 is very direct about this. According to this, 'spirit' is not the same thing that many think of when they use the word. 

Edited September 17, 2015 by lonetree

[Vort]

The philosophical term "materialism" was coined to describe a set of beliefs within the larger Christian (read: Catholic) tradition. LDS beliefs fall well outside of this worldview, such that terms like this aren't useful. It's like asking if a Catholic is Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform.

 

Longer explanation of the above:

 

Joseph Smith taught that we are all spirit, the tabernacle of our intelligence, and that spirit and body together comprise a "soul". So we believe that spirit and body are separable entities, which would seem to argue against materialism. On the other hand, Joseph Smith taught that there is "no such thing as immaterial matter", and that spirit is composed of a type of matter that is "more fine or pure" than that of which our bodies are made. But it is "all matter". (See D&C 131:7-8) Ergo, materialism. But neither explanation really fits the traditional (Roman Catholic, or more precisely, neo-Platonic) idea of spirit as some sort of immaterial essence wholly separate from the filthy, polluted physical world. We do not think in such Hellenistic dichotomies. The term simply does not make sense as applied to the Mormon worldview.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Vort

[Guest]

...This world is ultimately made of matter, and also is the way we make sense of it. We apprehend this directly through our senses. I believe Materialism is also called Realism. What initially made me think about this was some writings read years ago by Parley Pratt. (Actually, called The Essential Parley P Pratt.) And I've been revisiting some other materialist writings also recently. Anyway, thoughts? 

I'm interested in some specifics I you can provide them. I agree (with what I think you say) that since we are made of the same stuff as the world around us we can't do otherwise than to perceive things in worldly terms. Perhaps this is implicit in the term "natural man". I personally feel that when one sheds this mortal shell one will be very much freed from hindrances that prevent clear and true perception--not to mention influences on our behavior.  In terms of hormones and all the chemical combinations that influence us from conception on forward (without our knowledge or consent) I think it's fair to say that we are all operating "under the influence" to varying degrees.

Edited September 17, 2015 by UT.starscoper

[Jane_Doe]

I did not know about the belief that things were made spiritually before they are made materially. I looked up the reference you referred to(?). D&C 131.7,8 is very direct about this. According to this, 'spirit' is not the same thing that many think of when they use the word. 

 

Yeah, it was D&C 131.  

 

Truthfully, while most people don't think of spirit of having a material component, I don't see it particularly mattering.  It's very similar to most people don't think of light having a physical component, but it does.  

[Jane_Doe]

 

Joseph Smith taught that we are all spirit, the tabernacle of our intelligence, and that spirit and body together comprise a "soul". Se we believe that spirit and body are separable entities, which would seem to argue against materialism. On the other hand, Joseph Smith taught that there is "no such thing as immaterial matter", and that spirit is composed of a type of matter that is "more fine or pure" than that of which our bodies are made. But it is "all matter". (See D&C 131:7-8) Ergo, materialism. But neither explanation really fits the traditional (Roman Catholic, or more precisely, neo-Platonic) idea of spirit as some sort of immaterial essence wholly separate from the filthy, polluted physical world. We do not think in such Hellensitic dichotomies. The term simply does not make sense as applied to the Mormon worldview.

 

Very true.

[Blackmarch]

We are also taught that all things are made spritually before they are made materially.

 I find this verse in DC 29 to be quite interesting;

 34 Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created.

To the OP: I would say a conditional yes... to LDS the physical and spiritual realms are a lot more interconnected than what you usually find with a lot of Christianity. As well as physical matterbeing more transcendant or holy sort of a thing in nature than what you'd find in a lot of christianity.

 

Edited September 17, 2015 by Blackmarch

[Blackmarch]

We also have in the D&C the statement that spirit cannot be made or destroyed, which is another thing that has greatly interested me in the past as it appears extremely similar to the law that energy cannot be created or destroyed.

[lonetree]

I'm interested in some specifics I you can provide them. I agree (with what I think you say) that since we are made of the same stuff as the world around us we can't do otherwise than to perceive things in worldly terms. Perhaps this is implicit in the term "natural man". I personally feel that when one sheds this mortal shell one will be very much freed from hindrances that prevent clear and true perception--not to mention influences on our behavior.  In terms of hormones and all the chemical combinations that influence us from conception on forward (without our knowledge or consent) I think it's fair to say that we are all operating "under the influence" to varying degrees.

Many years ago I started reading some of the English Empiricists-like David Hume, John Locke, and George Berkeley- along with Thomas Hobbes. Not all of these thinkers were materialists(HUme and Berkeley weren't), but they kindled my own thoughts about how we should look at the world around us. For more specifics, I can do no better than to direct anyone interested to read their texts directly(instead of trusting my clumsy prose) . They are very accessible-not only in the sense of being available, but can be understood by anyone(ie me), with no training in philosophy needed.

      As for Parley Pratt the collection of texts I had was called The Essential Parley P Pratt, and he treated this idea of 'no immaterial substance' in those, if I remember correctly. I no longer have the book-lost it along the way somewhere...

 

EDIT: In his authoritative biography of Thomas Hobbes(Cambridge,1999), A P Martinich briefly compares H's theory of God as a material being and resultant criticism to Mormon concepts of God.

Edited September 18, 2015 by lonetree

[lonetree]

The philosophical term "materialism" was coined to describe a set of beliefs within the larger Christian (read: Catholic) tradition. LDS beliefs fall well outside of this worldview, such that terms like this aren't useful. It's like asking if a Catholic is Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform.

 

Longer explanation of the above:

 

Joseph Smith taught that we are all spirit, the tabernacle of our intelligence, and that spirit and body together comprise a "soul". Se we believe that spirit and body are separable entities, which would seem to argue against materialism. On the other hand, Joseph Smith taught that there is "no such thing as immaterial matter", and that spirit is composed of a type of matter that is "more fine or pure" than that of which our bodies are made. But it is "all matter". (See D&C 131:7-8) Ergo, materialism. But neither explanation really fits the traditional (Roman Catholic, or more precisely, neo-Platonic) idea of spirit as some sort of immaterial essence wholly separate from the filthy, polluted physical world. We do not think in such Hellensitic dichotomies. The term simply does not make sense as applied to the Mormon worldview.

Fair enough, but materialism is not just a set of beliefs within the Christian tradition, but also a way of looking at the world and deciding, for example what it is really made of.

     Of course, dualism: pitting spirit or the immaterial against matter, has a long Christian history. And it is my view that it will continue to have a history because we all have a sense that things are 'not right', perhaps they will be righted in the future. But we live in the present-with all of its limitations. Whether it is a hellenistic dichotomy of not, as long as the limitations exist, dualism in some sense will thrive and there will be a temptation-perhaps even among LDS-to believe in it. 

[Vort]

I would say that Latter-day Saints are indeed dualists. We do recognize a difference between spiritual and carnal/temporal, though it may not be the same difference that other religions or philosophies ascribe to the ideas.

[lonetree]

Yeah, it was D&C 131.  

 

Truthfully, while most people don't think of spirit of having a material component, I don't see it particularly mattering.  It's very similar to most people don't think of light having a physical component, but it does.  

After reading that reference in D&C, it makes me wonder what use the concept of spirit is, if it is subsumed in matter-or 'is all matter'.

[Jane_Doe]

Many years ago I started reading some of the English Empiricists-like David Hume, John Locke, and George Berkeley- along with Thomas Hobbes. Not all of these thinkers were materialists, but they kindled my own thoughts about how we should look at the world around us. For more specifics, I can do no better than to direct anyone interested to read their texts directly(instead of trusting my clumsy prose) . They are very accessible-not only in the sense of being available, but can be understood by anyone(ie me), with no training in philosophy needed.

      As for Parley Pratt the collection of texts I had was called The Essential Parley P Pratt, and he treated this idea of 'no immaterial substance' in those, if I remember correctly. I no longer have the book-lost it along the way somewhere...

 

 

The problem with classifying Mormonism into the spiritul-only or physical-only camp, is that in Mormonism spirit and matter we see are two parts of the same elephant. 

[Jane_Doe]

After reading that reference in D&C, it makes me wonder what use the concept of spirit is, if it is subsumed in matter-or 'is all matter'.

 

Well, lets look at couple examples:

 

The Holy Ghost -- mostly spirit, i.e. highly refined matter that our physical eyes can't see, but our spiritual ones can.

A rock -- mostly matter we can see, but had a pre-designed spiritual template.

A corpse -- matter we can see that once housed refined spiritual matter too.  

Dark matter-- matter that we cannot see, but is undeniably there, and does not fit at all into the classic dualism.