Guns at church?

[Blackmarch]

This crossed my FB today, and i thought I'd share-

it doesn't really underscore any point beyond God protects his servants, but personally i find it reinforcing to my belief that guns don't really matter (or shouldn't to the faithful).

anyways here's the link

http://www.aggielandmormons.org/2015/10/in-very-moment-harrowing-night-elder.html

[Guest]

I figured it was only a matter of time before someone said this.

 

I certainly agree with the overall sentiment.  I believe that the Lord needs specific things done by certain people.  Thus he provides them special protections as he did Samuel the Lamanite and Abinadi.  I also believe that many will not receive such special protection.  The burning at Ammonihah is a perfect example.

 

I was offered a chance to go to Afghanistan to support the US military as an engineer.  I was given a tremendous financial incentive (consider the hazard pay alone).  But we had to pray because we were concerned about safety.  We received a confirmation that I would be kept safe.  And I certainly was.  I'll tell stories when another thread makes it appropriate.

 

But it is strange to think that I felt more secure in a war zone without any weapons than I do in the US with a weapon.  There, I had a promise of security.  Here, I do not.

[NeuroTypical]

i find it reinforcing to my belief that guns don't really matter (or shouldn't to the faithful).

 

 

These stories may not be so reinforcing:

 

Mormon bishop fatally shot in California chapel

 

Woman shot to death outside church

 

2007 Colorado YWAM and New Life shootings

 

Nine Killed at Historic Emanuel Church in Charleston, South Carolina

 

 

Guns made all the difference in the world at the New Life Church - because the bad guy stopped killing people when he was confronted by an armed volunteer security person.

 

Maybe all the dead folks just weren't faithful enough?

Edited October 28, 2015 by NeuroTypical

[mirkwood]

I remember when he gave that talk.  I also remember the pacifists gloating in their church approved victimization.

[Blackmarch]

These stories may not be so reinforcing:

 

Mormon bishop fatally shot in California chapel

 

Woman shot to death outside church

 

2007 Colorado YWAM and New Life shootings

 

Nine Killed at Historic Emanuel Church in Charleston, South Carolina

 

 

Guns made all the difference in the world at the New Life Church - because the bad guy stopped killing people when he was confronted by an armed volunteer security person.

 

Maybe all the dead folks just weren't faithful enough?

or the 1005 slaughtered because they choose the way of Christ.

why would these "unreinforce it"? I was not saying that guns are good or bad or should or should not be used. If you so desire, you may want to read the account of first nephi where Nephi is instructed to take up a weapon and take someone else's life.

I said they were not important. If it is necesary for them to be used, the right leaders and/or people in the right places will have the revelation for such as well as the vice versa. What is important is 1. being obedient, and 2 being in tune with the spirit.

you ask "perhaps they were not faithful enough?" that's always a possibility (most of the people that you stated here don't have the covenants, if you want to explore that route- that may or may not have an influence, but in the end they don't have all the promises from such-if said covenants have any pertinance to any sort of promise of physical protection in mortality);

which seem to be the case of the saints referred to in section 98, but on the other hand you have the families (the wives and children) of the converts in who were allowed to be burned (very much allowed -Alma's companion was very strongly asking why they wouldn't stretch out their hands and invoke the priesthood to prevent it with their frickin hands they didn't even worry about having any tools than other than the priesthood... (no mention of using a sword or bows and oarrows or even going and getting an army organized for relief effort )and was told that it was so that God may judge the wicked in full.

how often are we faithful enough? How much faith would it take fo you to put down your weapon instead of pulling the trigger when seeing a barrel pointed or being pointed back at you? how much faith would it take to trust god to intervene in some manner or another?

They couldn't touch Christ till he let them. But  I don't expect people to have that much faith.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Blackmarch

[Capitalist_Oinker]

Oh Oh, it’s a gun thread! 

 

The last time I participated in one of these I got put on probation. 

 

Should I or shouldn’t I? 

 

Okay here goes.

Keep an eye on me, Pam.

 

I seriously doubt (strike that, I KNOW), there isn't anyone here who is more "pro-gun" than I am. My views on gun laws would probably be considered extreme even to those who consider themselves "pro-gun". 

Having said that, and despite the fact that I simply DO NOT understand the Brethren's gun ban, I feel obligated to honor their wishes. Hence I will not bring my gun into a church building. It's the Lord's Church and they are His buildings, and if He doesn’t want me in them with a gun---so be it.

The odds are it won't matter anyway, but if it turns out someday that it costs me my life (or someone else's life that perhaps I could have saved) I expect that God will make it alright in the end. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by Capitalist_Oinker

[Guest]

I seriously doubt (strike that, I KNOW), there isn't anyone here who is more "pro-gun" than I am.

 

Oh, I would beg to differ.

[NeuroTypical]

I was not saying that guns are good or bad or should or should not be used. ... I said they were not important. If it is necesary for them to be used, the right leaders and/or people in the right places will have the revelation for such as well as the vice versa. 

 

Guns aren't important to you.  No problem.  Sounds like you won't be using guns any time soon.  That's perfectly fine with me - a totally valid answer.  

 

As for the "right leaders and /or people", I think you're in a thread full of them.  You're reading a post from one right now.  And as a self-appointed representative of the "right people", I'd like to let you know that preparation, practice, forming habits, developing mindset, and a host of other things go into having the ability to be useful in "the right places".   Again, the 2007 NLC killer, who had killed a lot of people, and was currently engaged in killing people, and had plenty of ammo to kill plenty more, stopped killing people once he was confronted by one of the "right people" with a gun who shot back.  The lady who stopped him didn't need revelation to pack, or to decide to shoot back.  Guns may not be important for you to personally have one, but I assure you they are very important in protecting innocent life.

 

Finally, in response to your notion that these dead innocent people maybe are dead because they weren't faithful enough, well, let's just agree to disagree here.  

Edited October 29, 2015 by NeuroTypical

[Palerider]

This debate has raged a long time.  To my knowledge, Utah is the only state that has done this. 

 

As a side note, my gun and I attended church today.  I can't speak for the gun, but I was edified.

As I mentioned earlier ....my son in law and his gun attend church every Sunday. The Bishop is quite pleased someone is packing.

[mirkwood]

Several of my bishops and a stake president have said the same.

[kapikui]

 

Oh Oh, it’s a gun thread! 

 

 

 

I seriously doubt (strike that, I KNOW), there isn't anyone here who is more "pro-gun" than I am. 

 

 

Really?  Have you ever argued that one should have to apply for a permit costing at least $100 for permission NOT to carry a gun at all times while in public?

[Guest]

Really?  Have you ever argued that one should have to apply for a permit costing at least $100 for permission NOT to carry a gun at all times while in public?

And the award goes to... Kapikui!!! <fanfare>

 

No, but I've advocated that anyone who wishes to be a full citizen and voter must earn the money himself to buy his own gun, learn how to shoot it, and show it to the registrar to be able to vote and be considered an adult in the eyes of the law.

 

But then again, those two are at about the same level.  So, maybe it's a tie.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Guest

[NeuroTypical]

Sorry.  I'm waaaay more pro-gun than any of you guys.

 

This is what it looks like when I eat breakfast.

 

[mirkwood]

Amateurs.  This is the safe I have just for my bathroom.

 

 

 

[kapikui]

Amateurs.  This is the safe I have just for my bathroom.

 

 

I'm working on it, lack of money is an obstacle. 

[Capitalist_Oinker]

Really?  Have you ever argued that one should have to apply for a permit costing at least $100 for permission NOT to carry a gun at all times while in public?

 

No I haven't. But then I don't consider that a "pro-gun" position. Penalizing someone for not carrying a gun is just as reprehensible as penalizing someone for carrying one. 

[Capitalist_Oinker]

No, but I've advocated that anyone who wishes to be a full citizen and voter must earn the money himself to buy his own gun, learn how to shoot it, and show it to the registrar to be able to vote and be considered an adult in the eyes of the law.

 

But then again, those two are at about the same level.  So, maybe it's a tie.

 

Yeah, I'd say it's a tie.

Both reprehensible.

[Guest]

Yeah, I'd say it's a tie.

Both reprehensible.

      

[The Folk Prophet]

Oh Oh, it’s a gun thread!

The last time I participated in one of these I got put on probation.

Should I or shouldn’t I?

Okay here goes.

Keep an eye on me, Pam.

I seriously doubt (strike that, I KNOW), there isn't anyone here who is more "pro-gun" than I am. My views on gun laws would probably be considered extreme even to those who consider themselves "pro-gun".

Having said that, and despite the fact that I simply DO NOT understand the Brethren's gun ban, I feel obligated to honor their wishes. Hence I will not bring my gun into a church building. It's the Lord's Church and they are His buildings, and if He doesn’t want me in them with a gun---so be it.

The odds are it won't matter anyway, but if it turns out someday that it costs me my life (or someone else's life that perhaps I could have saved) I expect that God will make it alright in the end.

A-freakin'-men!

[David13]

I'm wondering if this is a policy that comes from the Lord, or from the lawyers.

dc

[mirkwood]

Lawyers.

[Capitalist_Oinker]

      

 

Seriously Carb, you need to think long and hard about your position. 

In an earlier thread (Are you a Closet Communist) you wondered if you were so Libertarian that you didn't belong here. I responded that I was on your side.

 

But as a Libertarian are you going to seriously argue that the government should fine anyone who doesn't wish to carry a gun?

As a Libertarian are you going to seriously argue that the government should have the power to force an individual to purchase a gun and learn how to shoot it, or deprive said individual of his/her right to vote?

If so, you're a sort of Libertarian that I'm certainly not familiar with.

[Guest]

Seriously Carb, you need to think long and hard about your position. ...

 

Seriously???  Uhm.  How about facetiously?

[kapikui]

 

Seriously Carb, you need to think long and hard about your position. 

In an earlier thread (Are you a Closet Communist) you wondered if you were so Libertarian that you didn't belong here. I responded that I was on your side.

 

But as a Libertarian are you going to seriously argue that the government should fine anyone who doesn't wish to carry a gun?

As a Libertarian are you going to seriously argue that the government should have the power to force an individual to purchase a gun and learn how to shoot it, or deprive said individual of his/her right to vote?

If so, you're a sort of Libertarian that I'm certainly not familiar with.

 

The thing that a lot of libertarians seem to be too dense to get is that you ALWAYS ask for vastly more than you want, because the enemy WILL insist on compromise. If you want an elimination of all gun laws, you have to start from the standpoint that everyone will be required to carry a gun in all circumstances no exceptions under penalty of a heavy prison sentence.  You can then negotiate too allowing expensive licensing to not carry, and so on. 

[Blackmarch]

"Guns aren't important to you.  No problem.  Sounds like you won't be using guns any time soon.  That's perfectly fine with me - a totally valid answer. "
mostly because a lack of funding, but i'd love to get a chance to throw some hundred pounders down range..... but i don't see that happening in the foreseeable future. as to their importance to me would vary depending on the situation and location I was in.
my opinion tho was that they are of little importance to the church as a church; guns are just an extension of the arm and strength of man.


"As for the "right leaders and /or people", I think you're in a thread full of them.  You're reading a post from one right now."
Quite possibly, and considering how the world is going i'd say more likely than not.....but one also must keep in mind that what seems logical and correct to man isn't always the same for God - and one must be prepared for the instructions/revelations that seem either totally hardheaded, foolish, and/or terrifying at the moment. Gods ways rarely unfold exactly as how we envision them.

 

 " And as a self-appointed representative of the "right people", I'd like to let you know that preparation, practice, forming habits, developing mindset, and a host of other things go into having the ability to be useful in "the right places".
when are they not.. for anything? I can't see anything where that principle is not applicable to.

 

"Again, the 2007 NLC killer, who had killed a lot of people, and was currently engaged in killing people, and had plenty of ammo to kill plenty more, stopped killing people once he was confronted by one of the "right people" with a gun who shot back."
Yes. And there are cases of when a gunman was stopped by other means as well. and both are reasons for why i try to stay towards the middleground.

 

"The lady who stopped him didn't need revelation to pack, or to decide to shoot back."
I would guess that you are most likely right on this. but how does one know? technically you don't need revelation for anything save for what one must have as representative of God.... A grand majority of the time revelation is given to assist someone in some way, many times it will save someone from some sort of spiritual or physical harm.
not all revelation comes in the same manner, it can be an inspiration, a gut feeling, a whisper, a vision, a connecting of the dots, a message from another person (either earthly or heavenly)... It may come seconds before it is needed or it may come years before.

I don't recall any articles that delved into the lady's background. She may have or she may have not- she might've been influenced by the spirit to look into personal defense years before so that later she could be there just for that moment. Or possibly not, and it just happened to be chance that she was armed. Or it might be possible that some better opportunity was missed that could have prevented the deaths that occurred previous to her actions.

"Guns may not be important for you to personally have one, but I assure you they are very important in protecting innocent life."
They certainly can be. For sheer efficiency in ending a life, pound for pound, dollar for dollar, ease of use, ease of access, and reward vs risk they are extremely hard to beat out with any other tool. And sometimes the best defense is a good offense. At least for immediate threat situations anyways (and certainly makes them quite attractive for a main focus or fallback).
Not all dangers are immediate, nor are all of them defendable against by bullet- and i doubt any one person has the time and means to train to be proficient in all forms of defense and protection.

 

"Finally, in response to your notion that these dead innocent people maybe are dead because they weren't faithful enough, well, let's just agree to disagree here. "fair enough. altho i'd like ot note that I was under the impression we were messing around with my opinion over the last couple of related posts and I was not expecting or driving towards changing yours.

 i would be interested in how you see the narrative of when the israelite's camp was infested with poisonous snakes and moses raised a staff with a snake on it... (IE who was at fault for what and why people died and why people did not die)- if you know the story.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Blackmarch