What does it take to commit the Unpardonable sin?

[Mark Sword]

 Hello, I am rather confused on this particular sin in what regards of limits it takes to commit this strict sin also known as "Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost" or "Denying the Holy Ghost". Mostly, I stand trembled whether I have committed this unfortunate sin myself. From my understanding, not to preach false doctrine, to commit this sin is to; Be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost, hold the priesthood (though I do not know whether women can commit this sin), know God, and sin against him. Somewhere on the lines Joseph Smith wrote about. The question is, Is it "continual" open rebellion, one prolonged rebellion, or denying God once you have had a personal witness of the son after the father hath revealed him unto you? Some members had stated that if we are sincerely repentant, god will forgive us, but I don't exactly hold onto that as the fact. God clearly states that denying the Holy ghost (Jesus Christ), shall not be forgiven in this world or the world to come. I unfortunately fell far off the straight and narrow path when I was 14, I was a teenager by then, fighting with God in my point of view, for a misunderstanding I didn't know until later on. I wanted at the time to become an atheist, for I thought God gave me weaknesses as of a curse in the world, to put me through humiliation, which it did, but now I understand why he gave men weaknesses. I've been fed up with the spirit of the adversary, constantly pushing away god, seeking to fight against him, but soon I found two answers to my misunderstanding. During the end time of my rebellion, I became humble, but now I look back the past with horror, that I now may have become a son of perdition. I am willingly trying to repent though it seems God doesn't answer back. Have I gone too far, even with the excuse of misunderstanding? I never had a witness of the son, but I had mere faith. I question if the true "hell" also known as: "Outer Darkness" has been revealed unto me, for I am alone without the Holy Ghost. I wish I never had gotten myself into that rebellion, for I was in the wrong, and I understand my misunderstanding. Does God not love me, or rather he cannot forgive even me? I dare not wish to be cast out forever into the hosts of the devil themselves.

[JojoBag]

 

All sins shall be forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. When a man begins to be an enemy to this work, he hunts me; he seeks to kill me, and never ceases to thirst for my blood. He gets the spirit of the Devil-- the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of Life,--the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost. You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance: they make open war like the Devil, and awful is the consequence.

Joseph Smith

 

 

A person must have gone through the temple and received their endowments to commit this sin.  There are those who say that the number of those who become sons of perdition can be counted on the fingers of one hand, but that is false.  There will be many, but there are serious conditions to meet.  I think that the very fact you are asking this shows you have not.  You may have seriously messed up,  but I doubt you've committed the unpardonable sin.

[Guest]

I had a talk with my mission president about this, and he pointed me to D&C 76:44-48.  His interpretation of this scripture is, if someone is really in danger of denying the holy ghost, the Lord would reveal what is in store to that person as kind of a "last chance" before the person has hit the point of no return.  I don't know how others interpret this scripture, but I do like the idea that the Lord would intervene like that if I were in danger of such a thing.  

 

It is clear that denying the holy ghost is much more than just apostasizing... Orson Hyde did that, and was then able to repent and return to the Quorum of the Twelve.  It is more than becoming an atheist, or being angry with God.  It involves knowing the Church is true, without a doubt, as much as knowing that the sun is in the sky when you are staring at it, and then going to open war with God while having a perfect knowledge of Christ.  The sin is unforgivable not because of an action that someone commits, but because of what kind of person the son of perdition is on the inside.  

 

Based on what you have described, you have not committed the unpardonable sin.  Not even close.  

[The Folk Prophet]

A person must have gone through the temple and received their endowments to commit this sin.  

 

Source?

 

I don't buy this.

 

Take, for example, Joseph Smith. Let's say that prior to the completion of the temple, but after all the revelations, seeing God, etc., he denied it all and fought against God. Per this idea, he would not qualify. That sounds absurd to me.

[omegaseamaster75]

A person must have gone through the temple and received their endowments to commit this sin.

I don't by this either, first time I've heard of it. I know that since I have now seen it on the internet that it must be true but I am still doubtful.

[The Folk Prophet]

My personal take...I think each and everyone who ever lived has the same opportunity to become a son of perdition as the next. God is no respector of persons. It doesn't make sense to me that the opportunity to become so is a matter of chance, any more than the opportunity for any other kingdom is a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. Those who become sons of perdition will choose to because they hate God and love Satan. It's as simple as that.

[Vort]

So far as I know, there are no absolute, authoritative pronouncements on exactly what "qualifies" as the unpardonable sin beyond the scriptural description of denial of the Holy Ghost. Many people have assumed it must mean this or that, and so we hear theories. Some suggest that only a bare handful are "evil enough" to be sons of perdition. Sherem, in contrast, feared that his apostasy and wicked teachings might have been enough to make him one. In the end, it is perhaps as the Lord teaches in Doctrine and Covenants 76:48, describing the state of Satan and his followers: Only those who suffer this condemnation will fully understand it.

 

My own opinion, for what it's worth (which is zero), is that sons of perdition are those who have so completely extinguished the light of God in their own souls that they no longer have a desire to repent. Thus they are not amenable to the Atonement -- not exactly because they have done something so unspeakably awful that the Atonement can't heal it, but because they have made of themselves a vessel of wrath and do not want the Atonement. God cannot save a man (or woman) who will not be saved.

[omegaseamaster75]

I think that the list will be small, only instance that I can think of is if you have your Calling and election made sure and then turn away.

 

 D&C 76: 43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

[NeuroTypical]

God clearly states that denying the Holy ghost (Jesus Christ), shall not be forgiven in this world or the world to come. I unfortunately fell far off the straight and narrow path when I was 14, I was a teenager by then, fighting with God in my point of view, for a misunderstanding I didn't know until later on. I wanted at the time to become an atheist, for I thought God gave me weaknesses as of a curse in the world, to put me through humiliation, which it did, but now I understand why he gave men weaknesses. I've been fed up with the spirit of the adversary, constantly pushing away god, seeking to fight against him, but soon I found two answers to my misunderstanding. During the end time of my rebellion, I became humble, but now I look back the past with horror, that I now may have become a son of perdition.

 

God is our Father - I think He'll understand.  To put it differently, consider the 11 yr old spending a full week cursing her father to his face, being a disobedient brat, rebelling against the entire notion of having a father in charge.  She gets it all out of her system, things are better now.  Now we struggle at being good dads here on earth - but do you think the earthly father should just write off his daughter as a lost cause, because of her bout of immature rebellion?

 

Think about how more perfect God our Father is.  I think you're ok, friend.  Go forth and be a disciple.

[The Folk Prophet]

I think that the list will be small, only instance that I can think of is if you have your Calling and election made sure and then turn away.

 

I seriously doubt this as valid. I know it's a common view. I'm not so sure.

 

Well..on the other hand, perhaps you're only saying it's one of the ways. In which case I have no issues with it. But as a requirement...I'm more in line with Vort. I don't think there are any criteria beyond just being wicked enough in one's soul.

[Sadliers]

One must have received the Baptism of Fire before they can become a Son of Perdition.

 

"But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me." (2 Nephi 31:14)

 

Getting the Baptism of Fire is no easy task. It happens after we have been confirmed and after we have diligently strived to live without ever offending the Spirit - and succeeded. We will have made great personal sacrifices in order to please God and we will have sufficiently passed all the tests placed before us. The Spirit will be with us all the time as is felt in the temple before we receive it. It signifies that we have finally passed through the straight gate and entered on to the narrow path. From that point on the Holy Spirit is our guide and takes us in obedience far beyond the commandments. One that has received the Baptism of Fire is no stranger to receiving revelations because of how close they are to the Spirit. It is not life as usual where one has to pray for the Spirit to come because they have already tuned their life so as to avoid ever offending the Spirit. Their greatest fear in life is not death, not the loss of a loved one, and not the insecurity of being jobless; their greatest fear is to lose the Spirit. Their life is one of devotion to God. They are the only ones that can become a Son of Perdition because they are the only ones that knew God well enough to have the Holy Ghost make His abode with them. There are few members that will reach that point:

 

" For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me." (D&C 132:22)

 

If one has become a Son of Perdition they will know it! They will know that they have denied the Spirit after receiving the Baptism of Fire and that they actively fought against Jesus. Merely drifting away afterward will land such a person in hell but being a Son of Perdition takes an active fight against the Savior after having truly known Him - one does not truly know the Savior until they have received the Baptism of Fire. Jesus will reveal to them their torment for having knowingly turned against Him:

 

"44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their wormdieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;

47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;

48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation." (D&C 76:44-48)

 

Don't worry, you're not a Son of Perdition! You have given a devil an abode within you through your rebellion and it is not giving up. You can beat it but it takes dedicated and sincere effort.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Sadliers said:

One must have received the Baptism of Fire before they can become a Son of Perdition.

"But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me." (2 Nephi 31:14)

I don't disagree with this particular application to the OP, but note that your initial statement is not supported by the scripture you quote. Even assuming that the above verse refers to becoming a son of perdition (which is not obvious by context), it does not say that is the only way it can happen.

We are all given varying degrees of light, and we all accept and reject that light at different times and in different amounts. Someone who receives a relatively small amount of light and utterly rejects it is in no condition to receive any kind of salvation. Since all will have the chance to know and come unto Christ, it follows that all will have the chance to reject him. I am not convinced that such people will not suffer the same fate as those mentioned in the verse above.

[Sadliers]

Do we agree that one must know Jesus Christ before they can become a Son of Perdition?

[omegaseamaster75]

10 hours ago, Vort said:

I don't disagree with this particular application to the OP, but note that your initial statement is not supported by the scripture you quote. Even assuming that the above verse refers to becoming a son of perdition (which is not obvious by context), it does not say that is the only way it can happen.

We are all given varying degrees of light, and we all accept and reject that light at different times and in different amounts. Someone who receives a relatively small amount of light and utterly rejects it is in no condition to receive any kind of salvation. Since all will have the chance to know and come unto Christ, it follows that all will have the chance to reject him. I am not convinced that such people will not suffer the same fate as those mentioned in the verse above.

I am not sure that I agree with this. You say:  "Someone who receives a relatively small amount of light and utterly rejects it is in no condition to receive any kind of salvation."

Must one accept Christ to receive "some" kind of salvation? I do not think so

[Sadliers]

43 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

I am not sure that I agree with this. You say:  "Someone who receives a relatively small amount of light and utterly rejects it is in no condition to receive any kind of salvation."

Must one accept Christ to receive "some" kind of salvation? I do not think so

And you're correct. That's what it says in D&C 76. He is speaking about Sons of Perdition when this is said:

 

"Wherefore, he saves all except them-they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment-" (D&C 76:44)

 

Because of our faithfulness in keeping our first estate (and our being here on earth is proof that we kept it) we have already been guaranteed a degree of glory:

 

"And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever." (Abraham 3:26)

 

The only way one can forfeit that minimal glory is by knowing Jesus then knowingly turning against Him and aligning themselves with Lucifer, as the devils did when they rebelled during their first estate. A belief in Jesus does not qualify as knowing Him.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Sadliers

[Vort]

4 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Must one accept Christ to receive "some" kind of salvation? I do not think so

Yes, absolutely. This is not in question. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. There is no other name or way whereby salvation comes. The very definition of "salvation" is that you are saved from sin, and this state requires that you apply the atoning blood of Jesus Christ.

[Vort]

4 hours ago, Sadliers said:

Because of our faithfulness in keeping our first estate (and our being here on earth is proof that we kept it) we have already been guaranteed a degree of glory:

Not so. A kingdom of no glory is prepared for those who are filthy still. In LDS circles, we call this kingdom "outer darkness".

[BeccaKirstyn]

I'm no where near as knowledgeable of the scriptures as the majority of you. But my simple understanding has always been: for anyone to receive salvation, they must accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, which includes utilizing his atonement to repent of their sins. This will happen in this life and in the next. Anyone who does not accept Him, whether in this life or the next, will remain in outer darkness. As for the Sons of Perdition, my knowledge is limited on the details of that process, but I know it cannot be an easy one. 

[Sadliers]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Not so. A kingdom of no glory is prepared for those who are filthy still. In LDS circles, we call this kingdom "outer darkness".

You're right that a kingdom of no glory is outer darkness. But what makes you think that a mortal can become "filthy"? Notice the definition of "filthy" as given by Nephi:

 

"And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end." (2 Nephi 9:16)

 

Only the devil and his angels will be "filthy still". His angels are not mortals but rather those that failed to keep their first estate. I will leave it at that because expounding on it will be fruitless.

 

As I said, being a Son of Perdition is simply out of reach for most members. One must know Jesus before they can deny Him. Knowing Him is greater than having faith in Him and believing in Him. Few members know Him and that is according to His own words:

 

"For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me." (D&C 132:23)

 

If a member cannot find the strait gate for the reason that they don't receive Him and know Him then what does it take to receive Him and know Him? That's where we go back to 2 Nephi 31 and discover that the final step in entering the straight gate is the Baptism of Fire:

 

"17    Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. 

18    And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive." (2 Nephi 31:17-18)

 

In verse 17 it identifies repentance, baptism, and Baptism by Fire as the steps to getting to the gate and narrow path. Although that verse does not directly say "Baptism of Fire" we see it stated on other occasions such as in verse 14, and in other scriptures such as D&C 39:6, D&C 20:41, D&C 33:11, John 3, etc. 

Verse 18 identifies that keeping the commandments is what brings the Baptism of Fire. Since members have already received baptism that means the criteria for the Baptism of Fire is reduced to repentance and keeping the commandments. Since few members are receiving the Baptism of Fire then it is a clear indication that repentance and/or keeping the commandments is what is holding them back from getting on to the narrow path. That also means that failing to repent and/or keeping the commandments is what keeps most members from knowing Jesus Christ. Since one must know Jesus Christ before they can commit the unpardonable sin that means there are "few" members that will reach the point of even being able to commit it (D&C 132:22 = few members will know Him). To suppose that the original poster was among the few, or that even many might be among the few, is simply not supported in scripture. But more importantly is that the Spirit has never borne witness to that conclusion.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Sadliers

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Sadliers said:

You're right that a kingdom of no glory is outer darkness. But what makes you think that a mortal can become "filthy"? Notice the definition of "filthy" as given by Nephi:

"And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end." (2 Nephi 9:16)

Only the devil and his angels will be "filthy still". His angels are not mortals but rather those that failed to keep their first estate. I will leave it at that because expounding on it will be fruitless.

Those who follow Satan are "his angels", so even if you want to interpret this phrase as exclusive, it still does not exclude mortal beings from falling. Consider the following examples:

• Cain, who was told: "[E]xcept thou shalt hearken unto my commandments, I will deliver thee up, and it shall be unto thee according to [Satan's] desire. And thou shalt rule over him; For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world."
• Judas Iscariot, of whom Jesus seems to have said (according to John): "[T]hose that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition." (I assume John's record of this was in reference to Judas Iscariot; John clearly bore no goodwill or happy thoughts toward him.)
• The Lord's own testimony in modern revelation as recorded in Section 76, including:

1.  The Lord's definition of the sons of perdition as those who deny Christ after "know[ing] my power, and hav[ing] been made partakers thereof" (which does not sound to me like someone who has necessarily received a supernatural manifestation, but anyone who has been touched and blessed by the atoning blood of the Savior and knows this to be the case)
2. His explicit statement that these will not be saved.

1 hour ago, Sadliers said:

Verse 18 identifies that keeping the commandments is what brings the Baptism of Fire. Since members have already received baptism that means the criteria for the Baptism of Fire is reduced to repentance and keeping the commandments. Since few members are receiving the Baptism of Fire then it is a clear indication that repentance and/or keeping the commandments is what is holding them back from getting on to the narrow path. That also means that failing to repent and/or keeping the commandments is what keeps most members from knowing Jesus Christ. Since one must know Jesus Christ before they can commit the unpardonable sin that means there are "few" members that will reach the point of even being able to commit it (D&C 132:22 = few members will know Him).

I recognize that your gloss is not uncommon among Church members, but I personally don't believe it, and I certainly disbelieve that it is part of the revealed doctrine.

1 hour ago, Sadliers said:

To suppose that the original poster was among the few, or that even many might be among the few, is simply not supported in scripture. But more importantly is that the Spirit has never borne witness to that conclusion.

I tried to make it clear that I agreed about the OP. As for the Spirit bearing witness, you can say that for yourself, but I think you're not in a position to say it for others.

[omegaseamaster75]

3 hours ago, Vort said:

Not so. A kingdom of no glory is prepared for those who are filthy still. In LDS circles, we call this kingdom "outer darkness".

I stand corrected everyone must bend the knee, but again very few will deny

Outer darkness is reserved for the sons of perdition

D&C 76: 99-103 

 99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

 100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

 101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

 102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

 103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

 

“Those who enter into the telestial kingdom, where their glories differ as do the stars of heaven in their magnitude, and who are innumerable as the sands of the seashore, are the ungodly, the filthy who suffer the wrath of God on the earth, who are thrust down to hell where they will be required to pay the uttermost farthing before their redemption comes. These are they who receive not the gospel of Christ and consequently could not deny the Holy Spirit while living on the earth.

“They have no part in the first resurrection and are not redeemed from the devil and his angels untilthe last resurrection, because of their wicked lives and their evil deeds. Nevertheless, even these are heirs of salvation, but before they are redeemed and enter into their kingdom, they must repent of their sins, and receive the gospel, and bow the knee, and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Redeemer of the world” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:22).

[Sadliers]

3 hours ago, Vort said:

 As for the Spirit bearing witness, you can say that for yourself, but I think you're not in a position to say it for others.

You'd be very surprised what the Spirit will reveal! There's no secrets with the Spirit.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Sadliers

[letmeoff]

On 11/01/2016 at 5:24 PM, Mark Sword said:

 Hello, I am rather confused on this particular sin in what regards of limits it takes to commit this strict sin also known as "Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost" or "Denying the Holy Ghost". Mostly, I stand trembled whether I have committed this unfortunate sin myself. From my understanding, not to preach false doctrine, to commit this sin is to; Be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost, hold the priesthood (though I do not know whether women can commit this sin), know God, and sin against him. Somewhere on the lines Joseph Smith wrote about. The question is, Is it "continual" open rebellion, one prolonged rebellion, or denying God once you have had a personal witness of the son after the father hath revealed him unto you? Some members had stated that if we are sincerely repentant, god will forgive us, but I don't exactly hold onto that as the fact. God clearly states that denying the Holy ghost (Jesus Christ), shall not be forgiven in this world or the world to come. I unfortunately fell far off the straight and narrow path when I was 14, I was a teenager by then, fighting with God in my point of view, for a misunderstanding I didn't know until later on. I wanted at the time to become an atheist, for I thought God gave me weaknesses as of a curse in the world, to put me through humiliation, which it did, but now I understand why he gave men weaknesses. I've been fed up with the spirit of the adversary, constantly pushing away god, seeking to fight against him, but soon I found two answers to my misunderstanding. During the end time of my rebellion, I became humble, but now I look back the past with horror, that I now may have become a son of perdition. I am willingly trying to repent though it seems God doesn't answer back. Have I gone too far, even with the excuse of misunderstanding? I never had a witness of the son, but I had mere faith. I question if the true "hell" also known as: "Outer Darkness" has been revealed unto me, for I am alone without the Holy Ghost. I wish I never had gotten myself into that rebellion, for I was in the wrong, and I understand my misunderstanding. Does God not love me, or rather he cannot forgive even me? I dare not wish to be cast out forever into the hosts of the devil themselves.

The unpardonable sin is to kill your desire, without desire you remain uncreated.