Another reason to Home School...

[The Folk Prophet]

I'm confused. What does homeschooling have to do with abuse in the home? Parents that are abusive are going to abuse their kids in public school the same as homeschooled kids.

[David13]

Now somebody here twice said something about kids leaving school.  Or the parents take them out of school to work on the farm like the good old days.  Or, if they are 13 and want to leave, they can go on to manual labor.

That is really a good idea. 

I do know many people who didn't like school, dropped out, and went to work on the farm or elsewhere.  And immediately recognized that school was not so bad after all, and that they wanted back into school.  And many did go back and make use of a good education later in life.

It's a good lesson for any young man, or woman for that matter.  School is easy compared to farm work, or most any job.

dc

[David13]

A lady I talked to one day told me her plan now was that they had to pack up and move to another city, and leave no forwarding address.

The (Catholic) school had called her that morning.  Her son was beating up his sister, including banging her head on the concrete because she had worn his shirt to school that day.

So yes, there is one that would occur either in school or home schooling, as it was an in family dispute.

dc

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I'm confused. What does homeschooling have to do with abuse in the home? Parents that are abusive are going to abuse their kids in public school the same as homeschooled kids.

I agree. The point being made I believe was just that some abusive parents chosen to homeschool in order to help keep the abuse secret.

I support public schools in part because I know, from experience, that it gives some children a safe haven away from the abuse.

On the other hand as David pointed out some kids are abused at school.

As a more general point...

I think some children do better with home school, some with public school and others in private school. As Vort mentioned some kids use different options at different phases of their lives. I'm a fan of parents who know they have options and prayerfully make the best choice they can for their children year by year....

So far the choice for our family has been homeschool, which I love, but I respect those who are guided to make other choices. And I'm grateful for public and private school teachers.

Edited January 14, 2016 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest MormonGator]

I'm confused. What does homeschooling have to do with abuse in the home? Parents that are abusive are going to abuse their kids in public school the same as homeschooled kids.

 Obviously,  it's easier to hide it in a homeschooling family. 

Edited January 14, 2016 by MormonGator

[The Folk Prophet]

Obviously, it's easier to hide it in a homeschooling family.

Fair enough.

[prisonchaplain]

Lehi, I'd suggest that adolescence now continues at least into the early 20s.  Thus, the idea of empowering mid-teens to choose not to go to school doesn't sit with me.  Perhaps those dead-set against school, who've become rebellious and antagonistic.  Even then, I'd set a minimum age of 16 or completion of 10th grade (whichever comes later).  Further, cementing my credentials as a moderate conservative, I'd require the government to foot the bill for high school completion, should these drop-outs have a change of heart.  I would also want to work hard with faith-based charities to develop some Deseret-like job training programs for these kids, so they do not get seduced by illicit business opportunities.

[yjacket]

Lehi, I'd suggest that adolescence now continues at least into the early 20s. 

For the majority of today's society, I agree; but how did it happen? It happened because instead of giving children more responsibility and the leeway to completely fall flat on their face and fail, parents want so badly for their child to "succeed" that they end up doing everything for them, thus delaying the ultimate day of reckoning when one realizes, "oh, I'm the only one who is in charge and responsible for my life".

 

This falls directly back to another thread about financial support; yeap adolescence does continue into the mid-20s with parents providing financial backing to a fully-formed adult. 100 years ago, people matured a lot faster, why? because they were given plenty of opportunities early on to fail and then to learn from their failures.

[Guest]

 Obviously,  it's easier to hide it in a homeschooling family. 

I guess I must be an idiot then.  It isn't obvious to me.  There is no such thing as a homeschool family that lives in a bubble.  They always have to come out for air some time.  The less they come out, the more scrutinized they get.

 

And most people know who the homeschooling families are.  And because we're still "the weird ones" we get scrutinized more.

 

So, I'd argue that it is harder to hide it in a homeschooling family.

[Guest]

Homeschool, Public School, Private School, Charter, etc. etc. etc... DOESN'T MATTER.

 

What matters is that - THE PARENT takes the responsibility of the child's education.

 

It is like running a lemonade stand.  You can harvest the lemons, squeeze the lemons, add sugar, taste test it, and market it... all by yourself.  Or you can find the best lemon harvester in the county and pay him to harvest the lemons... or find the best lemon squeezer and pay him to squeeze the lemons, etc. etc.  It's all good if your lemonade retained the best quality lemonade that is pleasing to God.  You can't just hand over the business to the harvesters, squeezers, and marketers.  Because, you have to know the moment the lemon is squeezed that the lemon squeezer was reneging on his duties that is impacting the quality of the juice!

 

So, I don't subscribe to the Home School is better than Public School generalization.  I subscribe to - Parents, not Teachers are Responsible for the Education of their Children.  So, if your child is not properly educated, it is not the school's fault - IT IS THE PARENTS'.

[Guest MormonGator]

I guess I must be an idiot then.  It isn't obvious to me.  There is no such thing as a homeschool family that lives in a bubble.  

 Oh there is. It's like what I mentioned before in the Catholic schools. The parents are sometimes in total denial. They focus so much on the ideology that they refuse to believe in any of the negatives.

[Backroads]

Generally it's faster to deal with abuse if you're seeing the victim regularly and can look for signs. True, if the home schooled kid being abused is oft out and about in the community, one can notice abuse promptly. But if the kid isn't leaving the house, it's more difficult. With a kid attending an outside school, you can generally count on seeing the kid almost daily and bad situations quickly noticed.

[LeSellers]

Lehi, I'd suggest that adolescence now continues at least into the early 20s. Thus, the idea of empowering mid-teens to choose not to go to school doesn't sit with me.  Perhaps those dead-set against school, who've become rebellious and antagonistic.  Even then, I'd set a minimum age of 16 or completion of 10th grade (whichever comes later).  Further, cementing my credentials as a moderate conservative, I'd require the government to foot the bill for high school completion, should these drop-outs have a change of heart.  I would also want to work hard with faith-based charities to develop some Deseret-like job training programs for these kids, so they do not get seduced by illicit business opportunities.

First, the government is not responsible for educating children, parents are. That's from scripture, not from Lehi. So, asking the state to confiscate resources from you to pay for another parent's duty is immoral on its face.

Second, the child cannot learn anything unless he;s interested in learning it. Forcing him to go to school does two things: it gives him a false motivation (he needs to learn only what the teachers says he must, and he need remember it only long enough to get through the test); and the fact of compelled "learning" destroys the very curiosity that impels learning in the first place.

Third, yes adolescence (a concept that did not even exist a hundred fifty years ago) now extends to the 20s or 30s. But that is not a fact of life, it's a fact of modern society. David Farragut was put in command of a warship at age 13 — and he commanded it successfully. Benjamin Franklin emancipated himself by running to Pennsylvania when he was a young teen, and became a successful businessman in his twenties. Children need to grow up earlier rather than later, and they cannot do it with helicopter parents and no consequences from their poor choices. We created long adolescence, and we need to abolish it.

If parents and the children were in charge of education, the schools that would surely arise (they already exist, e.g., Sudbury Valley and Montessori) would be far cheaper and far more successful. Family-Centered Education would remain a subset of all education, and scholarships for the poor would better answer the question, "What about the poor?"

There is no natural need for government-run, tax-funded welfare schools. It was not a response to a deficit in education, it was, and remains, a tool of government to control its citizenry.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

Homeschool, Public School, Private School, Charter, etc. etc. etc... DOESN'T MATTER.

 

What matters is that - THE PARENT takes the responsibility of the child's education.

That's all well and good philosophically, but the fact is, once a child is in a grtf-welfare school, the parent has no power to control his child's education.

Oh, yes, he's still responsible, and he'll pay the price for the state's failure, but he has no power.

Lehi

[The Folk Prophet]

That's all well and good philosophically, but the fact is, once a child is in a grtf-welfare school, the parent has no power to control his child's education.

 

Well that's not true.

 

School: "There is no God."

 

Parent: "The school is wrong and your teacher is an immoral Satan-loving adulterer!"

 

Education controlled!

[LeSellers]

School: "There is no God."

 

Parent: "The school is wrong and your teacher is an immoral Satan-loving adulterer!"

But what does the child have to put on the test? What must he parrot back in the classroom? What do his peers say?

No, the education in not controlled.

Lehi

Edited January 14, 2016 by LeSellers

[The Folk Prophet]

No, the education in not controlled.

 

I guess we define education differently.

[LeSellers]

I guess we define education differently.

Well, how do you define it?

My definition is rearing children to become useful and happy adults who cherish their families and know who they are in the world, along with being able to reason from facts to conclusions. Any science or history is icing on the cake.

Yes, a child needs to be able to cypher, spell, and perform a few other activities, and "know" some "stuff". But I think it's more important for them to understand that truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come.

Lehi

[estradling75]

That's all well and good philosophically, but the fact is, once a child is in a grtf-welfare school, the parent has no power to control his child's education.

 

 

Flat out total and complete lie... 

[Traveler]

I have not read all the posts in this thread but from the posts I have read it appears that many are not aware that the right to and over public education is a basic constitutional right that has been carefully and skillfully taken away from communities and states by the federal government.  Those that think home schooling is the solution do not understand the right or its intent.   In truth – the power to educate the next generation is greater than the power to vote for one’s leaders.  If you cannot connect and understand this principle – I am not sure how to proceed with what is really wrong with our public and private education.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

Well, how do you define it?

My definition is rearing children to become useful and happy adults who cherish their families and know who they are in the world, along with being able to reason from facts to conclusions. Any science or history is icing on the cake.

Yes, a child needs to be able to cypher, spell, and perform a few other activities, and "know" some "stuff". But I think it's more important for them to understand that truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come.

Lehi

 

If this is how you define education then I'm at a loss as to how you can be of the opinion that a parent has no control over their child's education if their child is in any given school, as per my example. What the child has to write on a test is not what the child knows, has learned, truly understands, etc.

[LeSellers]

Flat out total and complete lie...

I could easily post a huge number of news article that demonstrate this to be true.

When one sends his child to the grtf-welfare schools, necessarily, he cedes the control of the child's education to the school. And the schools are owned and operated by the state. Except for the ability to remove him, the parent has no control over what texts, what curricula, what teachers and what philosophy will be used in the classroom.

In contrast, at a private school while the same rules apply, in general, the parent always has the power to remove his child, and, even beforehand, has the power to choose which school (with the associated texts, curricula, etc.). So, the power of the market is what allows a parent to maintian control. The market has no place in the grtf-welfare schools: it's all political and the majority on the school board dictates what all children will learn (within the bounds mandated by the state and the federal systems).

So, I maintain that sending one's child to a grtf-welfare school is a near total cessation of all power to control that child's education.

What evidence is there that the parent retains it?

Lehi

[LeSellers]

If this is how you define education then I'm at a loss as to how you can be of the opinion that a parent has no control over their child's education if their child is in any given school, as per my example. What the child has to write on a test is not what the child knows, has learned, truly understands, etc.

Why did the communists in Russia, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc., all require confessions of imagined sins, and endlessly repeating the state mantra, along with a host of other actions? It was because even if you are forced to parrot back the pary line, you will, eventually accept it.

The last line in 1984 was something like "Winston Smith loved Big Brother." That's how it works and that's why they do it.

Lehi

[yjacket]

Well that's not true.

 

School: "There is no God."

 

Parent: "The school is wrong and your teacher is an immoral Satan-loving adulterer!"

 

Education controlled!

School gets the child for somewhere around 40 hours a week "educating" them. Take into account schoolwork, normal daily living, etc. and the school comes out on top as far as how much "education" they can shove into a kids brain. Undoing the damage can be very challenging.

[The Folk Prophet]

Why did the communists in Russia, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc., all require confessions of imagined sins, and endlessly repeating the state mantra, along with a host of other actions? It was because even if you are forced to parrot back the pary line, you will, eventually accept it.

The last line in 1984 was something like "Winston Smith loved Big Brother." That's how it works and that's why they do it.

Lehi

 

I'd continue the argument...but I'm fairly certain your mind is too closed off in the matter to even listen...so it sort of seems pointless. Short of the point that your example above proves NOTHING. Logical fallacy alert.

 

Peace out.