The Worship of God

[Faapefuoe]

I would be interested in knowing what you expect to experience after death? 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Not sure about the statue you reference, but I find this conversation about the nature of God's power to be a real mind-stretcher.  :-)

Here's a story

http://www.sermoncentral.com/sermons/being-the-hands-of-jesus-jerry-watts-sermon-on-discipleship-133336.asp

 

[LeSellers]

9 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

 It is difficult for Trinitarians, like myself, to imagine God allowing the kind of exaltation LDS believe.

I have to wonder why it is difficult. The Bible talks about it, the Early Church Fathers talked about it. And, most tellingly, the Bible never says anything to the contrary.

Lehi

[zil]

14 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

I have to wonder why it is difficult. The Bible talks about it, the Early Church Fathers talked about it. And, most tellingly, the Bible never says anything to the contrary.

Lehi

Perhaps a part of it is because in other beliefs God is not an exalted man, but an unknowable something (I confess to just not getting it, and mean no disrespect to others' beliefs, I just don't know how to describe what they believe God is like).  If God some something other than an exalted man, and isn't in the form of a man, then how can we (who are clearly human) ever become like Him?  We would have to lose all the physical / dimensional / form attributes which are a significant part of our identity and become something else entirely.  And if you also believe in the resurrection, then you believe we will be resurrected in the same form we have now - which is not like God's form.  It just doesn't work.

IMO, to believe that we can become like God, we must believe we are already somewhat like Him.

[prisonchaplain]

10 hours ago, Faapefuoe said:

I would be interested in knowing what you expect to experience after death? 

Glory--the eternal, constant presence of God, the authority to judge angels, the end of tears/suffering/death/illness, responsibilities that challenge and stretch, but do not frustrate, some really awesome food, and the constant presence of the unfettered love of my fellow travelers.

[prisonchaplain]

3 hours ago, LeSellers said:

I have to wonder why it is difficult. The Bible talks about it, the Early Church Fathers talked about it. And, most tellingly, the Bible never says anything to the contrary.

Lehi

I'm no expert on the church fathers, but I'm sure you are aware that we find many Bible passages that lead us to believe that only God was/is/will be the ultimate deity. Discussion to the contrary will lead us all over the place (discussions of pre-mortality, the nature of "substance," the Trinity vs. the LDS Godhead, etc. etc.). Suffice to say, our belief that we were created in-time, with a definite start point probably hinders our imagining the possibility of joining in God's nature. After all, if we did have a beginning, we're eternally behind, aren't we?

[Jane_Doe]

10 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

The passage ends up being about the gift of the Holy Spirit, in particular. Our sticking point is the line between the godlikeness traditionalists expect to experience in heaven. After all, we will see like Jesus, judge angels, face an eternal future, etc. vs. the godbecoming that LDS envision as a possibility for those worthy of exaltation.  Part of the disconnect has to do with our beginnings. Traditionalists believe we were created at conception. LDS believe in an eternal pre-existence. This difference prepares the way for our divergence on what lies ahead.

(Question, seeking to improve my understanding of traditional Christian thought)

Traditional Christians are trying to be like Christ, correct?  In the eternal perspective (after the full redemption from the atonement), is this viewed as an achievable goal?  Or is it one those goals to strive for but never fully achieve?

[prisonchaplain]

We will see as He sees. So, I do expect to become Christ-like. We're told we will love everyone fully. We believe that the love we have for one who had been a stranger, from a long-past generation, who lived 1000s of miles from us, will be greater than our current love for our spouse or kids. We already speak of being filled with, and then expressing Christ's love--in this life. So, yes, I imagine that as we gain a much more direct and eternal fellowship with Christ, we will be like him in his character.

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

We will see as He sees. So, I do expect to become Christ-like. We're told we will love everyone fully. We believe that the love we have for one who had been a stranger, from a long-past generation, who lived 1000s of miles from us, will be greater than our current love for our spouse or kids. We already speak of being filled with, and then expressing Christ's love--in this life. So, yes, I imagine that as we gain a much more direct and eternal fellowship with Christ, we will be like him in his character.

But not fully like Him?  Only like His character?  (Admittedly His character is a huge thing, but I'm asking about the other things)

(Btw, thank you so much for your educational insight)   

Edited March 10, 2016 by Jane_Doe

[prisonchaplain]

I suppose we shall be fully god-like. However, we'll not become God. We are grateful to be created by God. We know we were not literally birthed by God, so it does not offend us to be his highest creation. We are the Artist's greatest masterpiece. Where's the downside in that?

[Jane_Doe]

11 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I suppose we shall be fully god-like. However, we'll not become God. We are grateful to be created by God. We know we were not literally birthed by God, so it does not offend us to be his highest creation. We are the Artist's greatest masterpiece. Where's the downside in that?

So you would see the difference between being "God" and being "fully god-like" as the latter is a creation?

[prisonchaplain]

That would be a key distinction, sure. I keep thinking of the LDS saying that we are really or literally the children of God. So, I can see how it would seem odd to believe that we are "of God" and yet could never become what He is. However, if we were made by Him, in time, it seems equally odd to believe we could actually become what God is. I'm not sure the "being created" is the one key to understanding this distinction. It's not a proof or disproof. However, it does seem to explain the two perspectives.

[Jane_Doe]

8 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

That would be a key distinction, sure. I keep thinking of the LDS saying that we are really or literally the children of God. So, I can see how it would seem odd to believe that we are "of God" and yet could never become what He is. However, if we were made by Him, in time, it seems equally odd to believe we could actually become what God is. I'm not sure the "being created" is the one key to understanding this distinction. It's not a proof or disproof. However, it does seem to explain the two perspectives.

Yes, quite adeptly said.

What all do you think are the implications of "being created"?  How is it significant?

[Guest]

@Jane_Doe & @prisonchaplain

I'd like to add my 2 cents... There is a difference between being created biologically (by our parents) vs. a work of art being created by an artist.  

Since as Latter-day Saints we believe that we were "born and begotten by Heavenly Parents" (Gospel Principles, Ch1; Acts 17:29) we believe we have that literal parent-child relationship.  Therefore it is an obvious next conclusion to believe that we may become like Him.

Protestants do not believe we are literally his offspring, but that the parent/child relationship is figurative only.  God may only continue to chip away at the rough marble until His sculpture is complete (according to his wishes) that we can become "perfect".  It would never do to believe that a sculpture could become like his creator.  Yet, that doesn't mean that the sculpture can't be so "perfect" that it honors the sculptor and truly speaks of His soul to those who look on it.

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by Guest

[prisonchaplain]

2 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Yes, quite adeptly said.

What all do you think are the implications of "being created"?  How is it significant?

The good God who made us has good plans for us. We will become all that He desires for us. We will reflect him in ways that are glorious. Further, his spirit is in us. However, we will never become what He is. We will always be something else. If this is the intention of God, then the artwork never blames the artist for what it is.

[NeedleinA]

50 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

However, we will never become what He is.

Hi PC - Curious on a super simple answer (my brain is simple like that )
What is it that stops us from never, ever, ever, ever becoming like God, meaning "a" God?
If it is simply because we are a creation/artwork, what purpose do we serve God, meaning why did he even bother to create us in the first place?

Thanks PC!

[LeSellers]

7 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I'm no expert on the church fathers, but I'm sure you are aware that we find many Bible passages that lead us to believe that only God was/is/will be the ultimate deity. Discussion to the contrary will lead us all over the place (discussions of pre-mortality, the nature of "substance," the Trinity vs. the LDS Godhead, etc. etc.). Suffice to say, our belief that we were created in-time, with a definite start point probably hinders our imagining the possibility of joining in God's nature. After all, if we did have a beginning, we're eternally behind, aren't we?

Indeed.

That's why Joseph used the hypothetical cutting of his wedding ring to illustrate the principle: If it has a beginning, it will have an end, but without a beginning, there is no end.

This failure in creedal Christianity to recognize the truth of God's Fatherhood (the "universal Fatherhood of God", in my terminology) is the reason I could not accept the creeds and the traditions that grew up around them.

It is interesting that the pre-Nicene Early Church Fathers (their writings are available at CCEL.org) nearly all wrote about the deification of man, and the universal Fatherhood of God, and those following ad 300± spoke less and less on these matters.

It was only when the Apostles and those who grew up with them as their pastors died off that these sacred truth were first ignored and then rejected.

Lehi

[Vort]

If God is all-powerful, is he capable of creating a being like himself? (Ignoring the "uncreated" idea, for the moment.) If so, cannot the Bible be construed as teaching us that we may become like God -- indeed, commanding it? (Matt 5:48)

I understand that creedal Christianity disbelieves this idea, and I have little desire to try to talk them into my own beliefs. But though they may disagree with the idea, how can such Christians argue that it is against Biblical teachings, or that it is impossible? The first is demonstrably false, and the second demands that we limit God's power in a manner that I think we cannot do.

(It is worth noting that LDS doctrine does indeed teach the Biblical doctrine that we, along with Christ, will inherit all the the Father hath and that we will be "like him", but does not explain exactly what it means to be like God. That is more a matter of assumption and inference.)

[Traveler]

14 hours ago, Vort said:

If God is all-powerful, is he capable of creating a being like himself? (Ignoring the "uncreated" idea, for the moment.) If so, cannot the Bible be construed as teaching us that we may become like God -- indeed, commanding it? (Matt 5:48)

I understand that creedal Christianity disbelieves this idea, and I have little desire to try to talk them into my own beliefs. But though they may disagree with the idea, how can such Christians argue that it is against Biblical teachings, or that it is impossible? The first is demonstrably false, and the second demands that we limit God's power in a manner that I think we cannot do.

(It is worth noting that LDS doctrine does indeed teach the Biblical doctrine that we, along with Christ, will inherit all the the Father hath and that we will be "like him", but does not explain exactly what it means to be like God. That is more a matter of assumption and inference.)

What I find most problematic about religion and worshiping G-d is the notion that to misunderstand the attributes of G-d and thus worship incorrectly – at least as I understand traditional Christianity – is the single most evil sin a man can engage in and will thus have them sent to eternal hell for not worshiping correctly.  As I understand – it is this fear that is held over many traditional Christians that keeps them from honestly considering the LDS perspective of our intended divine destiny.  For example – in these discussions I have never heard a non-LDS say that they have sought out G-d in sincere prayer and as surely as they have been told anything in their life G-d and told them this is not true.  The fallback is that it is not a traditional doctrine. 

 

As important as the nature and attributes of G-d are – you would think everyone would seriously seek out G-d for the answer to such things.  For the record – my quest to understand G-d including his nature and his attributes has turned into a life long struggle for me.  And should I learn or anything contrary to my LDS background from G-d – I would follow that revelation from G-d in a heartbeat.    Yet so far and all that I have learned from my scientific background as well as my religious experiences has only justified and taken me deeper into the revelations of the restoration.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

14 hours ago, Vort said:

If God is all-powerful, is he capable of creating a being like himself? (Ignoring the "uncreated" idea, for the moment.) If so, cannot the Bible be construed as teaching us that we may become like God -- indeed, commanding it? (Matt 5:48)

I understand that creedal Christianity disbelieves this idea, and I have little desire to try to talk them into my own beliefs. But though they may disagree with the idea, how can such Christians argue that it is against Biblical teachings, or that it is impossible? The first is demonstrably false, and the second demands that we limit God's power in a manner that I think we cannot do.

(It is worth noting that LDS doctrine does indeed teach the Biblical doctrine that we, along with Christ, will inherit all the the Father hath and that we will be "like him", but does not explain exactly what it means to be like God. That is more a matter of assumption and inference.)

What I find most problematic about religion and worshiping G-d is the notion that to misunderstand the attributes of G-d and thus worship incorrectly – at least as I understand traditional Christianity – is the single most evil sin a man can engage in and will thus have them sent to eternal hell for not worshiping correctly.  As I understand – it is this fear that is held over many traditional Christians that keeps them from honestly considering the LDS perspective of our intended divine destiny.  For example – in these discussions I have never heard a non-LDS say that they have sought out G-d in sincere prayer and as surely as they have been told anything in their life G-d and told them this is not true.  The fallback is that it is not a traditional doctrine. 

 

As important as the nature and attributes of G-d are – you would think everyone would seriously seek out G-d for the answer to such things.  For the record – my quest to understand G-d including his nature and his attributes has turned into a life long struggle for me.  And should I learn or anything contrary to my LDS background from G-d – I would follow that revelation from G-d in a heartbeat.    Yet so far and all that I have learned from my scientific background as well as my religious experiences has only justified and taken me deeper into the revelations of the restoration.

 

The Traveler

[NeedleinA]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

As I understand – it is this fear that is held over many traditional Christians that keeps them from honestly considering the LDS perspective ... I have never heard a non-LDS say that they have sought out G-d in sincere prayer and as surely as they have been told anything in their life G-d and told them this is not true.  The fallback is that it is not a traditional doctrine.

This is what I find in our area too. It almost feels like you described as a "fear" to approach HF and ask him anything that is not traditional doctrine. As I've gone out on missionary splits and we have challenged others to pray about the BOM/gospel/lessons, I usually hear something like, "I couldn't do that, I can't ask HF that, you don't ask HF questions like that". It used to take me back at first, a "loving" God that is so unapproachable you can't talk with him and ask him questions? What a perfect weapon to keep your congregation in line = limit communications (prayer) to only worship... but no questions.

[prisonchaplain]

On 3/10/2016 at 3:21 PM, NeedleinA said:

Hi PC - Curious on a super simple answer (my brain is simple like that )
What is it that stops us from never, ever, ever, ever becoming like God, meaning "a" God?
If it is simply because we are a creation/artwork, what purpose do we serve God, meaning why did he even bother to create us in the first place?

Thanks PC!

God is an eternally unique being. We may grow and develop, but trans-species-ism is not in our future.

[prisonchaplain]

7 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

This is what I find in our area too. It almost feels like you described as a "fear" to approach HF and ask him anything that is not traditional doctrine. As I've gone out on missionary splits and we have challenged others to pray about the BOM/gospel/lessons, I usually hear something like, "I couldn't do that, I can't ask HF that, you don't ask HF questions like that". It used to take me back at first, a "loving" God that is so unapproachable you can't talk with him and ask him questions? What a perfect weapon to keep your congregation in line = limit communications (prayer) to only worship... but no questions.

We seek God's guidance on things we are uncertain about. To ask of the LORD whether or not something we believe is heretical/wrong might actually be a wonderful, divinely-restored truth would leave us open to every new whim. In other words, just as traditionalists must impress and positively influence those about us before they will consider our spiritual claims, so LDS must bring the would-be investigator to the place of--well, being an actual investigator--who already deeply questions his/her traditional beliefs--before they would pray a Moroni-like prayer with any fervency.

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

We seek God's guidance on things we are uncertain about. To ask of the LORD whether or not something we believe is heretical/wrong might actually be a wonderful, divinely-restored truth would leave us open to every new whim. In other words, just as traditionalists must impress and positively influence those about us before they will consider our spiritual claims, so LDS must bring the would-be investigator to the place of--well, being an actual investigator--who already deeply questions his/her traditional beliefs--before they would pray a Moroni-like prayer with any fervency.

Do you not ask the Lord to confirm Truth to you?

[prisonchaplain]

Every time I read the Bible, listen to a sermon, or engage in a Bible study group I ask God to confirm truth. I believe what we are talking about here is a fervent inquiry of the Spirit as to whether a new doctrine, which on the face of it runs in contradiction to currently held core beliefs, is called for. Joseph Smith was deeply disturbed by the divisions he saw in the Protestant Churches. In his desire for truth, he sought of the LORD. This is totally appropriate. However, if a Muslim tells you that Muhammed was the last prophet, so Joseph Smith could not have been one, would you automatically go into fasting and prayer, to inquire of Heavenly Father if this is so?  Would you do the same the next week when disciples of the World Mission Society Church of God come to your door and tell you that their founding pastor was the second coming of Christ?

My only suggestion is that we tend to be anchored in certain core beliefs. When someone brings counter-teachings, it takes a pretty high bar before most would make an impassioned inquiry of the LORD. I hope the distinction is clearer.  :-)