Evangelical with a question

[Jane_Doe]

Hi everyone,

 

I have an Evangelical associate that is researching the LDS church and has a question which she feels that I have been unable to adequately answer.  So, I turn to the wiser audience of LDS.net to see if someone is more eloquent than I.

 

Her question is: "Can someone be with Jesus Christ in the highest heaven for all eternity, if they never have completed any Mormon Temple ceremonies or have had any Mormon Temple performed for them as a proxy on earth?"

[anatess2]

The simple answer is - no.

Everybody - living or dead - have to accept the Covenant of Baptism.

Those who accept it on earth doesn't have to have the rite performed at the temple.  But then once you accept it on earth, then much has been given to which much is required... which eventually gets you to the point of receiving your endowments at the temple.

Edited April 20, 2016 by anatess2

[tesuji]

10 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

The simple answer is no.

Everybody - living or dead - have to accept the Covenant of Baptism.

Yes, I agree. Mormons believe the required divine authority to be saved was lost because of apostasy during the dark ages. God re-established this priesthood authority through the modern prophet Joseph Smith. People who want to live with Jesus must be baptized and enter into other sacred covenants in the temple, or accept proxy temple work for the same.

Now, can Jesus visit the person? I believe yes. But they can't permanently be where Jesus is.

 

[estradling75]

They aren't "Mormon" ceremonies.  They are God's... Mormons are simply the currently authorized source for them.

The question tries to point out a flaw or absurdity in our position but it simply shows a lack of knowledge.  God will make sure everyone has a chance to get the required ordinances of the Gospel.

Therefore a "righteous" person will have everything they need when the time comes...  And if they refuse... well if they refuse to do the things of God they don't really qualify as "righteous" do they?

[zil]

44 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Her question is: "Can someone be with Jesus Christ in the highest heaven for all eternity, if they never have completed any Mormon Temple ceremonies or have had any Mormon Temple performed for them as a proxy on earth?"

In addition to all the excellent answers already given, I think we may need to define "someone".  Depending on the age in which they lived, and whether they died before the age of accountability, it's possible some ordinances may not be required or may be slightly different.  But @estradling75 gives the spirit of the answer: everyone will need to enter into covenants with God, everyone will need to learn and obey celestial law, everyone will need to be sealed into the family of Adam, etc.  Certain things are required.  Since the restoration, those things have been defined by the ordinances of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[LeSellers]

Even in the Telestial kingdom, "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the  Christ." (I believe that's even true of outer darkness, but it's not worth talking about.)

If someone is going to accept Christ, there is no reason for his rejecting His ordinances and ceremonies.

It sounds as if the Evangelical wants his cake and eat it, too. He wants the blessings of the Celestial Kingdom, but doesn't want to be a, gag, ergh, Mormon.

Lehi

[bytebear]

Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ.  I believe anyone who rejects the covenant of baptism does so with full knowledge of the ramifications of that decision.  It's just a greater blessing for the individual and the world if we live under God's blessings here and now, and not hedge our bets.

[LeSellers]

6 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Can someone be with Jesus Christ in the highest heaven for all eternity, if they never … have had any Mormon Temple performed for them as a proxy on earth?

3 hours ago, LeSellers said:

If someone is going to accept Christ, there is no reason for his rejecting His ordinances and ceremonies.

Well, the second part of the question is moot: there will be no one in the hypothetical class. Eventually, every one of God's children, of the family of Adam, will have his Temple ordinances completed. The only issue is whether the person will accept the gospel of Jesus Christ. If so, those ordinances will be effective. It's a little more complex than that, but not much.

Lehi

 

Edited April 21, 2016 by LeSellers

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Hi everyone,

 

I have an Evangelical associate that is researching the LDS church and has a question which she feels that I have been unable to adequately answer.  So, I turn to the wiser audience of LDS.net to see if someone is more eloquent than I.

 

Her question is: "Can someone be with Jesus Christ in the highest heaven for all eternity, if they never have completed any Mormon Temple ceremonies or have had any Mormon Temple performed for them as a proxy on earth?"

Jane,

I'm fairly certain that you knew the answer to this question much as Anatess explained.  So, what was the problem your friend was having about accepting it as our belief.  Did she just not accept it as true?  I can imagine that.  But did she question that you accurately described it?  What was the issue.

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Jane,

I'm fairly certain that you knew the answer to this question much as Anatess explained.  So, what was the problem your friend was having about accepting it as our belief.  Did she just not accept it as true?  I can imagine that.  But did she question that you accurately described it?  What was the issue.

Yes, I knew the answer and explained it to my friend as thus.  She however, struggles with it and wanted to hear the chorus say it as well.  She does indeed struggle  to realize and accept other people have non-evangelical beliefs, let alone others that do claim to be Christian as well.  She asks a lot of the standard "different Jesus" and "but you're not really a Christian" questions.  It's part of her struggle.

[NightSG]

17 hours ago, LeSellers said:

(I believe that's even true of outer darkness, but it's not worth talking about.)

But it's a fundamental tenet of Christianity that we must argue about the irrelevant at the expense of the critically important.  It's second only to the not-to-be-relevant-until-the-Lord-explains-it-to-us-anyway in priority of discussion.

 

Edited April 21, 2016 by NightSG

[Tobeloved]

Thank you everyone for your answers and thanks to Jane_Doe for posting my question exactly how I wrote it.  It is appreciated.

 

I wrote the question to find out is if the LDS believe that they are not able to get into the celestial kingdom without  a man or men or church, but only relying 100% on the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

 

I see that the answer is "no"and it is clear that you will not be with Jesus, in your belief system,  without the church to help you along.

 

For the poster who mentioned that "every knee will bow and every heart confess that Jesus Christ is Lord", I do that now, each day.   Right now I bow to Jesus Christ.  Only Jesus Christ.

 

Most people are already baptized with water

 

So then the question, "why the church"?    If it is about Jesus atoning for all sin.   

 

Thank you for your consideration.

[estradling75]

9 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

So then the question, "why the church"?    If it is about Jesus atoning for all sin.   

 

 

 

Because Christ said so...  If you want a better answer then that... then you need to ask him why he set it up that way

[Tobeloved]

11 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

 

Because Christ said so...  If you want a better answer then that... then you need to ask him why he set it up that way

Thank you for your input.

[Just_A_Guy]

38 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

Thank you everyone for your answers and thanks to Jane_Doe for posting my question exactly how I wrote it.  It is appreciated.

 

I wrote the question to find out is if the LDS believe that they are not able to get into the celestial kingdom without  a man or men or church, but only relying 100% on the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

 

I see that the answer is "no"and it is clear that you will not be with Jesus, in your belief system,  without the church to help you along.

 

For the poster who mentioned that "every knee will bow and every heart confess that Jesus Christ is Lord", I do that now, each day.   Right now I bow to Jesus Christ.  Only Jesus Christ.

 

Most people are already baptized with water

 

So then the question, "why the church"?    If it is about Jesus atoning for all sin.   

 

Thank you for your consideration.

Because accepting the primacy of the Schoolmaster, and recognizing that He has saved us from something very terrible, does not exempt us from actually going to school.  Bowing and confessing Jesus Christ isn't enough--we have to love Him.  Developing and refining that love can be a lifetime pursuit.

Jesus said the two great commandments are loving God, and loving other people.  Mormonism gives these commandments new dimension, by promising the possibility of someday sitting in council with God Himself, wielding the kind of power He wields, and joining Him in His work of creating humans and laboring for their salvation.

Church attendance and temple rites give us opportunities to learn and increase and refine and test the love, for God and others, that God wants us to have.  If we know that He wants us to do these things, and we fail to do them; then that failure is essentially an act of rebellion that undermines our love for God and suggests we cannot be trusted with the kind of stewardship we hope one day to hold.  We still wind up with a reward, for He loves us eternally--but it won't be the sort of reward we could have had.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[estradling75]

17 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

Thank you for your input.

Ask yourself....  Why was Christ baptized?

 

If Christ's answer to that question isn't clearly at the tip of your tongue  I will tell you.  

Mathew 3: 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

 

In what manner did the Sinless Son of God "fulfil all righteousness" by being baptized?

 

Clearly because baptism was a commandment.  And Christ obeyed all the commandments (he would not have been sinless in any other way).  Therefore if Christ had to be baptized to obey the commandments...  Why would anyone think that we do not have to?

Now you might say once Christ suffered and died then that all went away...  If so don't you think Peter and Paul and the rest of the Apostles Christ choose would have known that?  Yet we see in the New Testament repeated baptisms (born of water) and bestowing of the Holy Ghost (born of Spirit).  

If Christ did it before his death and suffering, and the Apostles continued it after his glorious resurrection what grounds do we have for saying that it is not actually required?

 

 

[Tobeloved]

13 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Because accepting the primacy of the Schoolmaster, does not exempt us from actually going to school.  Bowing and confessing Jesus Christ--we have to love Him.  Developing and refining that love can be a lifetime pursuit.

Jesus said the two great commandments are loving God, and loving other people.  Mormonism gives these commandments new dimension, by promising the possibility of sitting in council with God Himself, wielding the kind of power He wields, and joining Him in His work of creating humans and labor ing for their salvation.

Church attendance and temple rites give us opportunities to develop and refine and test the love, for God and others, that God wants us to have.  If we know that He wants us to do these things, and we fail to do them; then that failure is essentially an act of rebellion that undermines our love for God and suggests we cannot be trusted with the kind of stewardship we hope one day to hold.  We still wind up with a reward, for He loves us eternally--but it won't be the sort of reward we could have had.

Is it thought that people who may not be LDS do not love Jesus Christ?  And do not develop and refine that love throughout their lifetime?

I'm trying to understand what you are saying exactly.

[Guest]

 

44 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

So then the question, "why the church"?    If it is about Jesus atoning for all sin.   

If you're stuck in sin and Jesus throws you a rope and tells you to grab the rope, do you not grab the rope?

When you're out, do you give credit to the rope or to Jesus?

Jesus saved you, but he used the tool of the Church and all that goes with it as the tool by which to do it.

Do you credit a hammer for building a house?  Do you credit a wrench for fixing a car?

Don't mistake the necessity of the tool as dismissing the one who used the tool.

 

Edited April 22, 2016 by Guest

[Tobeloved]

14 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Ask yourself....  Why was Christ baptized?

 

If Christ's answer to that question isn't clearly at the tip of your tongue  I will tell you.  

Mathew 3: 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

 

In what manner did the Sinless Son of God "fulfil all righteousness" by being baptized?

 

Clearly because baptism was a commandment.  And Christ obeyed all the commandments (he would not have been sinless in any other way).  Therefore if Christ had to be baptized to obey the commandments...  Why would anyone think that we do not have to?

Now you might say once Christ suffered and died then that all went away...  If so don't you think Peter and Paul and the rest of the Apostles Christ choose would have known that?  Yet we see in the New Testament repeated baptisms (born of water) and bestowing of the Holy Ghost (born of Spirit).  

If Christ did it before his death and suffering, and the Apostles continued it after his glorious resurrection what grounds do we have for saying that it is not actually required?

 

 

I believe that I did acknowledge most people who follow Christ have been baptized with water.  Both LDS and non-LDS.

So I am not contesting baptism.

[Just_A_Guy]

21 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

Is it thought that people who may not be LDS do not love Jesus Christ?  And do not develop and refine that love throughout their lifetime?

I'm trying to understand what you are saying exactly.

The main thing I was thinking of as I responded to your answer, was the question of "why church?" in a generic sense--the answer being that we need each other.  We need to teach and serve and love each other and we need the teachings we hear in church to help us to love Jesus more perfectly.  That happens, in part, through the teaching of true doctrine; so naturally you want to make sure that your church is as doctrinally correct as possible--and as Mormons, we think that happens to be us. 

Edited April 22, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[Tobeloved]

14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

 

If you're stuck in sin and Jesus throws you a rope and tells you to grab the rope, do you not grab the rope?

When you're out, do you give credit to the rope or to Jesus?

Jesus saved you, but he used the tool of the Church and all that goes with it as the tool by which to do it.

Do you credit a hammer for building a house?  Do you credit a wrench for fixing a car?

Don't mistake the necessity of the tool as dismissing the one who used the tool.

 

I disagree.   Jesus is not a tool used by the church.  Jesus is the one throwing the rope.  I think we already have the rope and Jesus

[estradling75]

17 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

I believe that I did acknowledge most people who follow Christ have been baptized with water.  Both LDS and non-LDS.

So I am not contesting baptism.

So if you agree that baptism is a command...  then the next question is one of Authority

Why did Christ go to John the Baptist?  And not the many other people who were also doing baptisms at the time?

Why did Paul redo the baptisms in Acts 19?

Why did Simon offer to buy the Gift with money in Act 8?

How could God's house be a house of order if anyone can take it upon themselves perform the ordinances of god

 

 

[LeSellers]

54 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

Most people are already baptized with water

26 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

In what manner did the Sinless Son of God "fulfil all righteousness" by being baptized?

In addition to estradling's point, we also see in the gospel accounts that Jesus didn't just go to anyone for His baptism. He specifically sought out John. John was not the first to baptize (Jews had been baptizing for centuries), and it seems safe to deduce that he was not the only one doing so. So, why John?

John had the authority of God to do it. Those others did not. The people they baptized, like your "[m]ost people" had been baptized with water, but those baptisms were not valid because the officiator was unauthorized.

The LDS claim, that the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Priesthood of Jesus Christ, the Church of Jesus Christ were restored in 1830 through Joseph Smith is either true (and I know it is) or it is not. But there is a huge difference between a restoration and a reformation. The latter relies on men (and we recognize their good will and intent) to interpret scripture, but they were/are men with their own weaknesses and biases. Their products were the products of men. And, when we grant their premise, that the Catholic Church had fallen into apostasy, the very idea that they could get the Priesthood from their own efforts is incredible.

A restoration, on the other hand, even through a human with the same weaknesses as the rest of humanity, does not rely on human effort: it is governed and accomplished by God. So, unless the church you belong to, or the faith you hold, has been restored by God, through a prophet, it does not have the power to baptize. And, as Peter said, "[water] baptism doth now also save us." Frankly, it's a bit scary to contemplate.

Lehi

[Tobeloved]

10 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

So if you agree that baptism is a command...  then the next question is one of Authority

Why did Christ go to John the Baptist?  And not the many other people who were also doing baptisms at the time?

That's a pretty good question.

 

For one, God told John the Baptist that he would see the Christ before his death.  Second, John the Baptist was considered to be the best of men on the earth at that time.  Third, John the Baptist even admitted that he was not holy enough to baptize Jesus, but Jesus told him to.

I think it is clear that John knew he did NOT have the authority, but did it because Jesus Christ told him to.

[Just_A_Guy]

14 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

I disagree.   Jesus is not a tool used by the church.  Jesus is the one throwing the rope.  I think we already have the rope and Jesus

Actually, I think you guys agree perfectly.