Church updates security guidelines for meetinghouses

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

1 minute ago, David13 said:

Well I guess then in your case I'd have to say I would want you carrying a gun in my ward if you were and felt yourself to be capable of it.

And it sounds like your judgment is good and you know your limitations.  I'd feel safe with you there armed RATHER THAN NO ONE BUT A BAD GUY.

I understand your point, and believe me I don't mind if some of my ward members carry concealed weapons, I just don't think I should be one of them.  Though I admit, I had a dream once that someone broke into my house and I shot him in the head with no hesitation...so maybe I would surprise myself.  I pray I'm never in that situation.

[David13]

3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

A ward with a 20 year old who has cerebral palsy, several teen-agers who are full of themselves, a woman who has lupos who can't control her muscle movements, and several octogenarian and even a nonagenarian who I'm glad have children in the ward who takes care of them so they don't have to drive anymore.

And you think any of them would come in a totin' a gun?   I don't think so.  Could they even get a permit?  I doubt it.  But again, like I say, better one of them than a psycho anti Mormon.

dc

[David13]

8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

 

Who said the gun range is a controlled environment?

It is?  Usually it's a shooting gallery.  With a whole lot of unbelievable noise.

dc

Edited June 20, 2016 by David13

[NeuroTypical]

Because I look for stories about this stuff, I do see occasional stories (about 2-3 a year) where conceal carry folks do dumb things.  Because the media is what it is, I see fewer stories about conceal carry folks doing smart things.  Because I'm familiar with various studies done, I know conceal carry folks are out there doing good things with their firearms every day. 

The dumb things conceal carry folks do, include:
* Dropping it in a room and causing a scene.
* Pulling it an an unwarranted time and escalating a scene, getting themselves arrested.
* Accidental discharge which usually only scares everyone, but occasionally harms someone (usually themselves by shooting themselves in the butt or something).

Edited June 20, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[David13]

3 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I understand your point, and believe me I don't mind if some of my ward members carry concealed weapons, I just don't think I should be one of them.  Though I admit, I had a dream once that someone broke into my house and I shot him in the head with no hesitation...so maybe I would surprise myself.  I pray I'm never in that situation.

Exactly what I'm thinking.  Any one of those people might just surprise you, rise to the occasion with unforeseen strength and acumen and save your life (my life) unexpectedly.

I'd be grateful.

dc

[anatess2]

5 minutes ago, David13 said:

And you think any of them would come in a totin' a gun?   I don't think so.  Could they even get a permit?  I doubt it.  But again, like I say, better one of them than a psycho anti Mormon.

dc

You said EVERYBODY.  I say I would not feel safe if one of these people insisted on carrying a gun.  I would roll the dice on my warrior husband and children even unarmed outsmarting the bad guy over relying on the nonagenarian...

Edited June 20, 2016 by anatess2

[anatess2]

6 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Because I look for stories about this stuff, I do see occasional stories (about 2-3 a year) where conceal carry folks do dumb things.  Because the media is what it is, I see fewer stories about conceal carry folks doing smart things.  Because I'm familiar with various studies done, I know conceal carry folks are out there doing good things with their firearms every day. 

The dumb things conceal carry folks do, include:
* Dropping it in a room and causing a scene.
* Pulling it an an unwarranted time and escalating a scene, getting themselves arrested.
* Accidental discharge which usually only scares everyone, but occasionally harms someone (usually themselves by shooting themselves in the butt or something).

There are always those that give everybody else a bad name.

[David13]

Nonagenarian is good.  I'll be glad to have him there armed.  If he can't shoot straight maybe he'll lend me his gun.

Isn't your husband a carrier? 

Don't put all your eggs in one basket.  What if your dearly loved is the first one taken out by the bad guy?

There are folks who say the problem is there are too many guns out there. 

No, the problem is there are not enough guns out there.

In Orlando it was a gun that stopped the shooter but only after hours and hours of killing.  If there were more guns there in the right hands he could have been stopped after one killing.

dc

 

So I stand by what I said.  EVERYBODY.  Including the seeing eye dog.  (If we had one.)  I'd like to see two revolvers in holsters on his guide pack.  That way we'd be ready for any occurrence.

 

Edited June 20, 2016 by David13

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, David13 said:

I'm thinking.  I can't really think of anyone.  Let me think a little more.  Maybe I'm just in a good ward.

I wouldn't say I'm in a "bad" ward by any means. And the people I wouldn't want carrying aren't bad...just......not mature enough maybe.

[Guest MormonGator]

My college of course had rules about carrying weapons on campus but I have a :: ahem :: friend who carried all the time and took wicked glee in knowing that his hard leftist professors and other students would have been shocked, outraged and appalled to know that he was doing so. 

This "friend" would probably carry in church. I don't know if he was ever a boy scout but don't they say something about being prepared? 

Edited June 21, 2016 by MormonGator

[Backroads]

Sadly, most of my shooting has been at my Scout camp days on the good ol' Bartlett shooting range...

Husband owns a couple of guns. He wants to get me out to teach me how to use them, or at least go to the fire arm class my buddy hosts every single month. And I still haven't.

Intellectually I have no problem with guns. But I did not grow up in a household with guns and I'm still not used to it.

[Backroads]

Sadly, most of my shooting has been at my Scout camp days on the good ol' Bartlett shooting range...

Husband owns a couple of guns. He wants to get me out to teach me how to use them, or at least go to the fire arm class my buddy hosts every single month. And I still haven't.

Intellectually I have no problem with guns. But I did not grow up in a household with guns and I'm still not used to it.

[kapikui]

3 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I understand your point, and believe me I don't mind if some of my ward members carry concealed weapons, I just don't think I should be one of them.  Though I admit, I had a dream once that someone broke into my house and I shot him in the head with no hesitation...so maybe I would surprise myself.  I pray I'm never in that situation.

Those of us who carry say the same prayer.

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, kapikui said:

Those of us who carry say the same prayer.

Amen!

[kapikui]

3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Because I look for stories about this stuff, I do see occasional stories (about 2-3 a year) where conceal carry folks do dumb things.  Because the media is what it is, I see fewer stories about conceal carry folks doing smart things.  Because I'm familiar with various studies done, I know conceal carry folks are out there doing good things with their firearms every day. 

The dumb things conceal carry folks do, include:
* Dropping it in a room and causing a scene.
* Pulling it an an unwarranted time and escalating a scene, getting themselves arrested.
* Accidental discharge which usually only scares everyone, but occasionally harms someone (usually themselves by shooting themselves in the butt or something).

You do realize that the media is EXTREMELY anti-gun and that pretty much any accident with someone carrying concealed gets reported nation wide.  I would bet that maybe 1% of defensive use of firearms where the gun is actually fired is reported nationally, and those are almost always reported as "an off duty officer" even when it isn't.  A few more are reported locally, and even that is usually buried. Of course that only counts the times the gun is actually fired.  Most of the time armed resistance stops the problem.  Showing the gun is enough.  And a vast majority of the time, simply displaying the holstered gun makes the bad guy change his mind. It's hard to say for sure, but most figures point to a defensive use of firearms (most often simply displaying the holstered weapon) every six seconds or so in the United States. None of these get reported, only the improper behavior. 

[Guest]

13 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

If I were in your ward you wouldn't want me to carry a gun...not because I'm a bad person, but when I'm stressed or anxious my hands shake so badly, I might accidentally shoot you.  I'm a terrible shot under the best of circumstances (and I've even been trained, I'm just really clumsy.)  

I'd want you armed.  If I forgot my gun you could lend me yours.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, kapikui said:

You do realize that the media is EXTREMELY anti-gun and that pretty much any accident with someone carrying concealed gets reported nation wide.  I would bet that maybe 1% of defensive use of firearms where the gun is actually fired is reported nationally, and those are almost always reported as "an off duty officer" even when it isn't.  A few more are reported locally, and even that is usually buried. Of course that only counts the times the gun is actually fired.  Most of the time armed resistance stops the problem.  Showing the gun is enough.  And a vast majority of the time, simply displaying the holstered gun makes the bad guy change his mind. It's hard to say for sure, but most figures point to a defensive use of firearms (most often simply displaying the holstered weapon) every six seconds or so in the United States. None of these get reported, only the improper behavior. 

I am very pro-gun, but I'd like to see statistics where displaying the holstered weapon actually deterred a violent assailant. In fact, I'd like to see just one report from a verified source that indicated displaying the holstered weapon deterred an assailant.  That may look fun in a movie.  But IRL...

I've taken three classes on concealed carry/active shooter situations.  NONE advise you simply display the weapon in your holster.  It should ALWAYS remain hidden in public until the moment you're ready to use it.

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

Was it on this website that I posted that link about Why John M. Browning was so motivated to design guns and gun parts? It was because of Missouri, and frankly our entire early history prior to the Utah migration.  And Buchanan's Blunder was also enough to feed the fire.  

He decided that the Mormon people will NEVER be defenseless again.

While I share the concerns about some members of the ward being immature or irresponsible or physically/mentally incapable, I do share David's general idea that as many adults as possible should be armed.

[LeSellers]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I'd like to see statistics where displaying the holstered weapon actually deterred a violent assailant.

As CCW permits (like the related concealed carry for newspapers permits and worship permits) go up, crime goes down. "More Guns, Less Crime" means that it doesn't even take showing the holstered weapon to avoid or stop a crime.

This stuff isn't a direct response to your query, but it does relate.

This isn't a "holstered gun", but it's an unfired gun.

Quote

Gary Spencer, 36, and his wife stopped at a Wells Fargo Bank around 9 a.m. Spencer waited in the car while his wife went inside the bank to deposit a check. While waiting in the parking lot, Spencer witnessed two men struggling with one another for a red money bag and heard a “zapping sound.” The assailant had been waiting in line behind the man with the bag as he withdrew $5,000 from the bank. When leaving the bank, the victim was then attacked with a stun gun. When Spencer realized what was happening, he reached into his wife’s purse and pulled out her .380 pistol. Spencer approached the suspect and ordered him to stop. When the suspect saw Spencer’s gun, he dropped the stun gun and fled empty-handed. The victim suffered only minor injuries. (Independent Tribune, Concord, NC, 10/9/13)

 

Quote

The data have consistently shown that states with the biggest increases in permits also experienced the biggest reductions in murder rates. Dozens of academic papers have documented that allowing concealed carry leads to a reduction in violent crime, and the Crime Prevention Research Center report shows that this pattern has continued over the last few years.

Permit holders are extremely law-abiding — even more law-abiding than the police who are rarely convicted of crimes. The latest data from Texas and Florida continue to show that permit holders are convicted of misdemeanors and felonies at less than a sixth the rate that police officers are.

Quote

Concealed carry permit holders are even more law-abiding.  Between October 1, 1987 and January 31, 2015, Florida revoked 9,366 concealed handgun permits for misdemeanors or felonies. This is an annual rate of 12.5 per 100,000 permit holders — a mere tenth of the rate at which officers commit misdemeanors and felonies. In Texas in 2012, the last year the data is available, 120 permit holders were convicted of misdemeanors or felonies – a rate of 20.5 per 100,000, still just a sixth of the rate for police. . . .

There is no way to get the stats you ask for. Unreported crimes, that is, those that didn't happen for whatever reason, don't show up, by definition. Yet the NRA, the USGOA, and John Lott have estimated that there are millions of these unconsummated crimes because the intended victims (or someone else close by) either showed the holstered weapon (or said they were armed), or drew it. On recognizing they were facing an armed target, the assailants withdrew. No shots fired on either side, and no police report.

Lehi

Edited June 21, 2016 by LeSellers

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

This isn't a "holstered gun", but it's an unfired gun.

This is exactly the point I was making.  A gun in a holster will only encourage someone to get you before you can get to your gun.  But if it is already drawn and trained, that is when it is effective. 

I do not contend that the gun is only useful if fired.  But sitting in the holster is not a deterrent that you should depend on.

This is what I'm talking about.

EDIT: Amazing!  I just found out that the linked video is restricted to Google Apps account owners only.  No, Google doesn't censor anything.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Guest

[dahlia]

On 6/20/2016 at 5:05 PM, tesuji said:

I still can't see why anyone would ever want to take a gun to church. Guns in church make me feel extremely much less safe.

There are people with guns all over the place, including church. You just don't know it.

As the saying goes, 'I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.' 

[Sunday21]

On June 20, 2016 at 1:03 PM, NeuroTypical said:

I'm an assistant ward clerk, and don't usually go to Bishopric meetings, but the head clerk is out of town, so I was attending.  They read a letter from HQ regarding updated security guidelines.  Good stuff.  Probably most of it isn't new, except for the active shooter stuff.  Highlights:

* Usual stuff like call the cops, lock cars in parking lots, if you're alone in a building keep all the doors locked, know where the fire alarms and exits are, etc.
* Regarding carrying firearms, the guidelines quote handbook 2 (“The carrying of lethal weapons . . . within [Church] walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law”), and use the phrase "strongly discourages" anyone except law enforcement officers from carrying.  
* Preventative stuff like asking people to report suspicious persons to leaders (and cops if warranted)
* Leave suspicious people alone.  If they get disruptive or disorderly, calmly invite them to stop or leave.  If they refuse, call the cops.
* People disrupting a meeting: Be calm and polite, don't invade their personal space, ask them to stop or leave.  Or go meet with a priesthood leader outside of the meeting.  If they remain disruptive in the meeting, or try to get to the microphone, turn off the microphone and dismiss the meeting.  Don't use physical force unless necessary.  
* Responding to an active shooter: The church is adopting the Run/Hide/Fight methodology pioneered by Houston 3 years ago.  Basically, if there is deadly violence happening at church, run the heck the other way.  If you can't run away, hide (lock doors, black out windows, silence cell phones, etc).  If you can't run and you can't hide, fight for your lives (anything and everything in order to incapacitate the bad guy.  Organize to defend yourselves).  

If I heard correctly, this won't be a change to handbook 2, just something for church leaders to be aware of, and consider when advising training auxiliaries.  I don't think it'll be read over the pulpit at sacrament meeting or anything like that. 

Good stuff.  The bishopric spoke fondly about the 4-5 people they knew who carry at church.  I expressed hope that my ward would consider doing some training on this stuff, and I happily volunteered to play the part of the suspicious or disruptive person.   I'd be great at that. 

Yes, you have real skills in that area!

[anatess2]

On 6/20/2016 at 6:57 PM, David13 said:

Nonagenarian is good.  I'll be glad to have him there armed.  If he can't shoot straight maybe he'll lend me his gun.

Isn't your husband a carrier? 

Don't put all your eggs in one basket.  What if your dearly loved is the first one taken out by the bad guy?

 

My husband only carries in certain situations which is closer to rare than often... he doesn't carry in Church.  My father-in-law is the bishop of his ward.  I know he carries everywhere but I've never asked if he carries in Church too.

As far as the nonagenarian having a gun... my first day in weapons class (actually, it was my brothers' weapons class.  I was a kid and I just refused to be excluded just because my dad thinks girls don't need weapons class)... the teacher taught that a weapon in the hands of an untrained (or non-capable) person is a liability.  Because, just as it can be handed over to someone more capable, it can also be handed over to the enemy.

 

[David13]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

My husband only carries in certain situations which is closer to rare than often... he doesn't carry in Church.  My father-in-law is the bishop of his ward.  I know he carries everywhere but I've never asked if he carries in Church too.

As far as the nonagenarian having a gun... my first day in weapons class (actually, it was my brothers' weapons class.  I was a kid and I just refused to be excluded just because my dad thinks girls don't need weapons class)... the teacher taught that a weapon in the hands of an untrained (or non-capable) person is a liability.  Because, just as it can be handed over to someone more capable, it can also be handed over to the enemy.

 

Yeah, but so what.  One in the hands of a "highly trained" and capable individual who exercises their capability can also be taken by the bad guy if he gets the drop on the guy, can't it?

But it's better to die having a fighting chance and taking it, rather than just as dead weight, just as a sitting duck.

And good for you not being left out of the weapons class.  I think women need just as many guns and experience with them as any man, if they so choose.

I have certainly known enough women who struck me, from experience as a lot more capable as a partner in survival than a whole lot of men I have known.

dc

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, David13 said:

Yeah, but so what.  One in the hands of a "highly trained" and capable individual who exercises their capability can also be taken by the bad guy if he gets the drop on the guy, can't it?

But it's better to die having a fighting chance and taking it, rather than just as dead weight, just as a sitting duck.

And good for you not being left out of the weapons class.  I think women need just as many guns and experience with them as any man, if they so choose.

I have certainly known enough women who struck me, from experience as a lot more capable as a partner in survival than a whole lot of men I have known.

dc

"IF" he gets the drop on the guy... if that's the case, then we all get to do what we all get to do... alternative scenario 2...

The thing is... weapons class is not just firearms class... weapons class is weapons class... whatever is available to you at the time... the Relief Society nice wood chairs with the cushy padding can be made into a weapon.  Or when there's nothing else, your entire body can be made into a weapon - yes, even against a guy armed with a Sig Sauer MCX.  And yes, it drastically increases your chance for success if you know how the Sig Sauer operates.

Edited June 22, 2016 by anatess2