What Does D&C 128:18 Mean

[Guest]

Ever since the global indexing effort, I've had a lot of thoughts floating around in my mind about this, so I haven't yet put them all together yet.  But I wanted to put a series of questions to the forum for your consideration.

Here is an excerpt from D&C 128:18

Quote

For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. 

I realize that the first sentence is what is repeated most often.  But I've recently had time to ponder the rest of the quote.  In fact, I've been quite preoccupied with the entire verse and the related verses which quote Malachi's prophecy.

What is with the "welding link"?  Somehow I don't believe that the welding of dispensations is done by family geneology.  I believe it is through the bestowal of priesthood keys from dispensation to dispensation (e.g. Elijah to Joseph Smith).

Why do Malachi and 3 Ne both say the earth shall be smitten with a curse, but D&C (and PoGP) say "utterly wasted"?  I used to think that "utterly wasted" means "completely destroyed".  But then I read the following from Pres Hinckley (as a counselor in the First Presidency).

Quote

And without this work, the Lord indicated, the whole purpose of creating and peopling the earth would be frustrated, would be wasted.

In this context, it appears that wasted actually means that the entire purpose of the earth would not have been fulfilled and all the efforts of all time would have gone to waste.

What exactly is so important about family history and temple work that it goes beyond the scope of simply saving those for whom we do temple work for?  Why would the entire purpose of the earth depend on it?

As I consider the sardonic attitudes of anti-Mormons that I grew up with, I wonder, what possible purpose would the Church have for spending so much time, money, and energy on getting its membership to do temple work?  If it were all false, why do we do it?  Why do the "corrupt" leadership want us to do it?  What clandestine purpose would it serve?

But for us, I understand that we are providing the saving ordinances for individuals one person at a time.  And each of those individuals are very thankful for their work being done.  But for the whole earth to be designed for this purpose?  What am I missing?

We understand that without us doing their temple work, they cannot be made perfect.  But what do they then provide us that we cannot be made perfect without them?  What am I missing?

To continue the quote above:

Quote

There are millions across the world who are working on family history records. Why? Why are they doing it? I believe it is because they have been touched by the spirit of this work, a thing which we call the spirit of Elijah. It is a turning of the hearts of the children to their fathers. Most of them do not understand any real purpose in this, other than perhaps a strong and motivating curiosity.

There has to be a purpose in this tremendous expenditure of time and money. That purpose, of which we bear solemn witness, is to identify the generations of the dead so that ordinances may be performed in their behalf for their eternal and everlasting blessing and progress.

later...

Quote

That which goes on in the house of the Lord, and which must be preceded by research, comes nearer to the spirit of the sacrifice of the Lord than any other activity of which I know. Why? Because it is done by those who give freely of time and substance, without any expectation of thanks or reward, to do for others that which they cannot do for themselves.

I know I'm feeling something very powerful when I read this speech.  But I still am unable to intellectualize it.  There is an ineffable quality of importance to this that I must understand.

But... what am I missing?

 

Edited July 27, 2016 by Guest

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But... what am I missing?

 

Hair, good looks and charm. 

Just playing. I think you make some good points. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Hair, good looks and charm. 

Just playing. I think you make some good points. 

HEY!  I've got the hair .  My wife has the looks, and my kids have the charm.  So, I ain't missin' nuttin', pal. 

[Guest]

This is something that has been on my mind a lot. The connecting teaching I've been thinking about, though, is that as they cannot be saved without us, we can't be saved without them. I have some thoughts that I've had a hard time formulating in a way that makes sense.. Here's the closest I can come: Elder Holland has said that we do not teach or speak of angels enough. What I have been reading about a lot, and even experiencing (I believe), is that we are ministered to by angels, and it is my belief that there's a good chance those angels are often our ancestors. I have wondered lately if perhaps, because our God is a god of order, there is a necessary priesthood stewardship that has to be there before they are able to aid us. One way to provide that stewardship, and the one that makes most sense to me, is being linked to them through the sealing power. So as we find our ancestors, do their temple work, and link them to us, they are granted a priesthood stewardship over us (as parents/grandparents could have) and are granted more power? access? permission? to aid us from the other side. 

I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else. It's something that's just been gelling in my mind recently. 

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else. It's something that's just been gelling in my mind recently. 

Makes great sense actually. 

[Guest]

Thanks Gator. Maybe it only makes sense to me, how this would connect to the OP. I've been accused of being random more than once.

[mordorbund]

Regarding the earth being "utterly wasted", review in the D&C what the purpose of the earth is. How does it fill the measure of its creation?

Regarding the "we without them cannot be saved" I think there's a few principles at play.

• Brigham spoke of having an unbroken chain going back to Adam. I'm not sure I quite understand the why of this, but you can review some of his sermons in the Church manual.
• For the familial bindings, those who are sealed to parents are considered "born in the covenant" because they are heirs to the covenant. I tend to think there's still a significance to that despite entering into covenants later. I can only think of bad analogies to describe it, but I'll share them if you can't quite follow what I'm getting at.
• I think the dispensational keys is a huge deal. John the Baptist and Joseph Smith are bookends to the Elijah prophecy. John deals with the fathers and the disobedient, while Joseph deals with the children and the covenant. I would not be surprised to find more revealed on John's role of exercising keys in the spirit world.
• Returning to keys and covenants, Joseph is to turn the children to the promises made to the Fathers. I include Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in that with the Abrahamic covenant. I also include Adam in that with the resurrection and redemptive covenant.

[zil]

I am certain @Eowyn is right: when the spirit of a deceased person receives their ordinances, they are empowered to act in support of God's plan (to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man).  Given the centrality of the family unit in the eternities, it only makes sense that their part be tied to one degree or another to their own descendants.

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

In this context, it appears that wasted actually means that the entire purpose of the earth would not have been fulfilled and all the efforts of all time would have gone to waste.

Yes, this is how I always understood this wording - or even the curse.

As for the purpose of the Earth, it is God's purpose: to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.  If we are not sealed together as one huge family of God, the purpose of the earth is not accomplished and therefore the earth and everything around it (time, people, the creation, etc.) is wasted (all for nothing).

I also agree that part of the welding is merging all dispensations (keys, knowledge, truth, ordinances, *people*, etc.) into one.  IMO, that does not have to mean we live the law of Moses and every other law all at the same time, rather, the doctrines on which all these are based are all restored in their fullness, eventually - the law of the celestial kingdom, basically - everything must become one, not separate.

As @mordorbund posted, we need an unbroken chain going back to Adam, except I see it as a net, where at each "knot" in the net (where a vertical and horizontal line meet), is a person, and the lines of the net link (seal) them to the next person.  If you are not linked (sealed) to anyone, you have no place in the net, you are single and separate, disconnected from life, power, keys, authority, not tied (sealed) to God or anyone else.  Obviously, this net wouldn't be a perfect grid, as we link via families, rather than to exactly 4 other people, but you get the idea.  (Yes, this analogy doesn't work well for the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms, but you get the basic idea.)

(Edit: Or add another dimension in there, and we can link to more than 4... somehow I always visualize this in 2 dimensions, but really, more is better in this "net".)

I believe that in the eternities, everyone who will receive exaltation will have to be sealed to parents (biological or "adopted"), and to a spouse.  Given that not everyone can / will have offspring, I'm not certain on that part - will those who did not have children in mortality be sealed as "parents" to orphans who do not have and never had anyone else to be sealed to?  I'm not sure, but I'm certain the sealing to "parents" and spouse will be needed.

Finally, after my mom (a big genealogist) died, my dad gave me a new (additional) understanding of D&C 2:2, which the Spirit tells me with complete certainty is true:

Quote

 2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.

What promises?  Made by whom? To what fathers?  Promises we, as children destined to be born (or adopted) in the covenant made to our own fathers (ancestors) who would not be born in the covenant (think of that long period of apostasy), that we would seek them out and do their ordinance work for them, that they too would have the same chance as we.  In light of this thread, I think it entirely possible that pre-mortally we made not just promises, but covenants to bring salvation to them.

Edited July 25, 2016 by zil
There are more than 2 dimensions...

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Eowyn said:

I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else. It's something that's just been gelling in my mind recently. 

While I don't know if it addresses my question, I very much agree that there is some connection between the welding link and ministering angels.  A relative (who has passed on) wrote in her journal about an event in her childhood.

Mother and Father had gone away on a journey for a couple of days. The first day, one of the older children got ill with a fever and became delusional to the point of violence.  Since he was one of the larger children, this was quite dangerous for the remaining children.  They did all they could and decided they had to pray for help and protection.

The children who prayed saw their long deceased grandfather come into the room as they were about to be pummeled by their brother.  As soon as Grandfather came to the room, the sick boy stopped his attacks and went to bed.  Grandfather remained by his bedside until Mother and Father came home.  And the boy remained in bed.  When the parents came back, Grandfather left.

[Edspringer]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Ever since the global indexing effort, I've had a lot of thoughts floating around in my mind about this, so I haven't yet put them all together yet.  But I wanted to put a series of questions to the forum for your consideration.

Here is an excerpt from D&C 128:18

I realize that the first sentence is what is repeated most often.  But I've recently had time to ponder the rest of the quote.  In fact, I've been quite preoccupied with the entire verse and the related verses which quote Malachi's prophecy.

What is with the "welding link"?  Somehow I don't believe that the welding of dispensations is done by family geneology.  I believe it is through the bestowal of priesthood keys from dispensation to dispensation (e.g. Elijah to Joseph Smith).

Why do Malachi and 3 Ne both say the earth shall be smitten with a curse, but D&C (and PoGP) say "utterly wasted"?  I used to think that "utterly wasted" means "completely destroyed".  But then I read the following from Pres Hinckley (as a counselor in the First Presidency).

In this context, it appears that wasted actually means that the entire purpose of the earth would not have been fulfilled and all the efforts of all time would have gone to waste.

What exactly is so important about family history and temple work that it goes beyond the scope of simply saving those for whom we do temple work for?  Why would the entire purpose of the earth depend on it?

As I consider the sardonic attitudes of anti-Mormons that I grew up with, I wonder, what possible purpose would the Church have for spending so much time, money, and energy on getting its membership to do temple work?  If it were all false, why do we do it?  Why to the "corrupt" leadership want us to do it?  What clandestine purpose would it serve?

But for us, I understand that we are providing the saving ordinances for individuals one person at a time.  And each of those individuals are very thankful for their work being done.  But for the whole earth to be designed for this purpose?  What am I missing?

We understand that without us doing their temple work, they cannot be made perfect.  But what do they then provide us that we cannot be made perfect without them?  What am I missing?

To continue the quote above:

later...

I know I'm feeling something very powerful when I read this speech.  But I still am unable to intellectualize it.  There is an ineffable quality of importance to this that I must understand.

But... what am I missing?

 

Nice post

Please read and ponder D&C 76:40-43. There lies your answer.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Edspringer said:

Please read and ponder D&C 76:40-43. There lies your answer.

How does that address my questions?

[Edspringer]

41 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

How does that address my questions?

Hi there

You said: " I know I'm feeling something very powerful when I read this speech.  But I still am unable to intellectualize it.  There is an ineffable quality of importance to this that I must understand".

From these words I can see you're really interested to know about temple work, salvation for the dead and genealogy.

Please, don't take me so bad. I don't mean to sound rude, but I gotta ask this:

Do you want me to explain it to you or do you want to find it for yourself through reading, pondering and praying? 

There is plenty to get from the verses I suggested about the why of temple work, salvation for the dead and genealogy. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Edspringer said:

From these words I can see you're really interested to know about temple work, salvation for the dead and genealogy.

Please, don't take me so bad. I don't mean to sound rude, but I gotta ask this:

Do you want me to explain it to you or do you want to find it for yourself through reading, pondering and praying? 

There is plenty to get from the verses I suggested about the why of temple work, salvation for the dead and genealogy. 

No, I'm not really talking about salvation for the dead.  I specifically said I get that side of the "Spirit of Elijah".  They need us to perform their work.  "They cannot be made perfect without us".  I understand this much.

I'm asking specifically about two things:

1. The other side of the equation.  How is it that WE need THEM?  "We without our dead cannot be made perfect".  That half of the equation is what I don't understand.
2. How is redeeming the dead SO IMPORTANT that the other missions of the Church are all for naught if we don't perform this one?

Yes, please explain it to me.

 

[anatess2]

14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

1. The other side of the equation.  How is it that WE need THEM?  "We without our dead cannot be made perfect".  That half of the equation is what I don't understand.
2. How is redeeming the dead SO IMPORTANT that the other missions of the Church are all for naught if we don't perform this one?

 

Elijah's mission (and promise) is to bring the full power of the Priesthood.  This is the power that seals the dead to us.  This is THE SAME power that seals and binds us to qualify for celestial glory.  John the Baptist's mission was for a salvific ordinance.  Elijah's mission goes beyond that to ordinances of exaltation - Celestial.  Without that full power of the Priesthood, the progression of mankind under the Plan of JOY - both living and dead - would not have been complete.

[Edspringer]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

No, I'm not really talking about salvation for the dead.  I specifically said I get that side of the "Spirit of Elijah".  They need us to perform their work.  "They cannot be made perfect without us".  I understand this much.

I'm asking specifically about two things:

1. The other side of the equation.  How is it that WE need THEM?  "We without our dead cannot be made perfect".  That half of the equation is what I don't understand.
2. How is redeeming the dead SO IMPORTANT that the other missions of the Church are all for naught if we don't perform this one?

Yes, please explain it to me.

 

Ok, then

Let’s go

Let me first explain why I mentioned D&C 76:

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

 

These verses explain what the gospel really is: glad tidings to all of us because of the perfect atonement of Jesus Christ. Our Savior was the Only One capable of doing what was needed for the salvation of all mankind. No other spirit or god could do what He did. We, as Amulek taught, couldn’t perform an atonement even for our own sins (Alma 34:8-15), therefore the infinite atonement could only be performed by proxy, by someone in a higher level, as Elder James E. Talmage explained in his book Jesus, the Christ (chapter 3).

 

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, [except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him].

 

In these verses we learn that the power of the atonement is directly linked to the work and glory of God: to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. It means that all mankind will be saved, except the sons of perdition. All mankind and all God’s creations will receive a degree of glory. By grace we will all resurrect and go back to God’s presence and ultimately will receive a kingdom of glory to live in forever. Sons of perdition will have no degree of glory, however.

Now, let me address your questions:

1. The other side of the equation.  How is it that WE need THEM?  "We without our dead cannot be made perfect".  That half of the equation is what I don't understand.

When the Great Plan of Redemption was proposed, our Savior was totally aware of the Father’s mind concerning His children. He said: “We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; and we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; and they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever” (Abraham 3:24-26).

Spirt world is part of the second estate. Considering that there are tons of spirts waiting for redemption, and considering that we will all be judged according to our deeds in our second estate, they more than need us. They still can receive the blessings of the atonement in the spirt world.

We need them because we have to extent to them the same love and charity Christ had for us, doing that which we can do ourselves: perform by proxy the ordinances of the gospel. As Jesus did what we couldn’t do ourselves, we must to do for them what they can’t do themselves now. Moroni taught: “ Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail— But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him” (Moroni 7:46-47). If we want exaltation, we need to do what Christ did, as He did what He saw His Father doing (John 5. Charity is not only for the living, but also for the dead.

2. How is redeeming the dead SO IMPORTANT that the other missions of the Church are all for naught if we don't perform this one?

The importance of the redemption of the dead is based on verses 42 and 43 of D&C 76. The work and the glory of the Lord is the immortality and eternal life of man and of all things created by Him. It includes all those put into His power (the living, the translated, the dead, the resurrected) and all the works of His hands. Preaching the Gospel and Perfecting the Saints are also works performed both here and in the spirit world, so all missions of the Church are equal in importance.

Hope I could help you.

[LeSellers]

The "three-fold mission of the Church" was, in reality, a one-fold  mission with three phases:  improve all mankind so each could enter the Celestial Kingdom (or, at least, give them the opportunity to do so). This includes the "quick and the dead" (living and dead) and, once members of the Church of Jesus Christ, to "perfect" them through temple ordinances. (President Monson's addition of "Care for the poor and the needy" extends the last: a man who's hungry cannot focus on the things of the Kingdom.)

No matter how we see it, "life", from Father's PoV, is eternity: His children must be given a fair chance at coming home, and, if we don't make the ordinances possible, now that we have access to them, and the ability to build the Temples and do the work, than we are unworthy of the blessings we've received.

Lehi

[zil]

Why do we need our ancestors?

We know that in order to inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, we must be sealed to a spouse.  We emphasize this so much, that I wonder if it doesn't overshadow other requirements.  Consider this: When a family join the church as converts, the husband and wife are sealed (OK so far), and then their children are sealed to them.  Why?  If all they needed was to be sealed to a spouse, why seal living children to living parents?  (IMO, the answer to this is the answer to why we need to be sealed to our ancestors.)  Does one have to be sealed to parents in order to inherit the celestial kingdom?  Why?  What about people whose parents prove unworthy?  To whom are they sealed?  Is it possible even that sealing is needed and that somehow, despite their unworthiness, we will still rely on that ordinance?  Or will they be replaced in the "net" by an upstream ancestor?

Another way to look at it: If the family is the central unit of eternity, what family?  Which family are the married children in?  Their own?  The husband's parents' family?  The wife's parents' family?  The grandparents?  Or is it all one family of Adam and we must all be sealed into Adam's family (through parents)?  Perhaps sealing to a spouse is needed for the highest glory but sealing through parents is what it takes to obtain any glory, and only the sons of perdition are sealed to no one.  (I can see some potential flaws in that possibility, but I'm just exploring what questions we ought to ask to reach the answer(s).)

I don't know the answers to all those questions, but it seems to me that Brigham Young answered this question of why we cannot be saved without them - without them, we are cut off, disconnected, the chain between us and Adam is broken.

(I also think once this question is answered, the second one is too.)

Edited July 26, 2016 by zil

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, zil said:

Why do we need our ancestors?

...

I don't know the answers to all those questions, but it seems to me that Brigham Young answered this question of why we cannot be saved without them - without them, we are cut off, disconnected, the chain between us and Adam is broken.

(I also think once this question is answered, the second one is too.)

This comes closest to answering my question.  And, yes, I believe both would be answered by the explanation.  I'm just looking for something deeper still.  I'm not discounting anyone's response here.  Thank you to all those who responded.  And I'll take it all under advisement.

I have just been having these impressions about the topic for about a year now.  And it culminated in the Indexing effort just over a week ago.  The Spirit is driving me on this one and I can't understand why.  I really don't like not knowing why.

 

[Traveler]

I believe something that has been missing is centered around what we understand as covenant.  Most religious sects focus on the individual and the idea that we have a personal relationship with G-d (or enlightenment) to be exalted or saved.  Many religious individuals tout their moment of being saved as an individual experience.  Indeed we value our individual freedom, our individual liberty, our individual salvation and in many way just the concept of the individual.  There is a lot of me, self and I in our humanity.  I believe that all this centering on an individual is in every way counter to the divine purpose of G-d and the basic covenant of sacrifice.

My personal life work has utilized artificial intelligence and one very interesting phenomenon of intelligence started out as what we call, "distributed" intelligence.  This concept has evolved and is now called the "hive mind".  What we have learned is that in all cases the distributed hive mind is more efficient, more economical, and produces superior results to what I will poise as the "super - superior" singular mind.  The point is somewhat like the concept in sports that a "team" is always superior to any individual and that regardless of how good and individual is the team is better and more important - the very best of individuals are always better when operating within the frame work of THE TEAM.

Because of my profession I have come to love and appreciate the team concept.   I learned very early in my career that regardless of my personal genus and superior ideas that what every I endeavored to do was made better by peer reviews.  Lets be honest and careful here - it is not just any criticism but gifted team members as concerned with me as they are themselves - but willing to be brutally honest that is necessary for a real and actual peer review - however, note this is not a enemy review.

The symbolism in scripture is that of a symbiotic relationship not only with loving G-d but our fellow men.  This is our purpose and glory - that is so similar to our G-d's work and glory - to advance others as well as ourselves.  I am quite certain that in our pre-earth existence that we made covenants - not just with G-d but with our extended family of ancestors and decedents.  This all by design to keep us on track from loving just ourselves to having love and purpose with those that me made covenant with to bring about a wholeness not just for ourselves but for all.  That we will work as a team to create something greater than any one of us - including G-d who is the greatest of all.

 

The Traveler

[Just_A_Guy]

A couple of thoughts:

1)  Orson F. Whitney's citing Joseph Smith about "tentacles of divine providence" seems apropos here. (Source) (Clarification by Elder Bednar)

2)  If you are a king or a queen, you need a) lawful claim on the title (which you inherit through your ancestors) and b) a kingdom.  The former comes from your sealing to your parents; the latter comes from your sealing to your spouse and children.  Consider the following, from Brigham Young:

Quote

When I see a man in this Church with those feelings, and hear him say, “I do not wish to enlarge my family, because it will bring care upon me,” I conclude that he has more or less of the old sectarian leaven about him, and that he does not understand the glory of the celestial kingdom.

Says one, “How will you explain this to me?” We understand that we are to be made Kings and Priests unto God; now if I be made the king and lawgiver to my family, and if I have many sons, I shall become the father of many fathers, for they will have sons, and their sons will have sons, and so on, from generation to generation, and, in this way, I may become the father of many fathers, or the king of many kings. This will constitute every man a prince, king, lord, or whatever the Father sees fit to confer upon us.

In this way we can become King of kings, and Lord of lords, or Father of fathers, or Prince of princes, and this is the only course, for another man is not going to raise up a kingdom for you.

If I did not feel disposed, in my poverty, to enlarge my family and to build up the kingdom, I could not be acquainted with the difficulties thereof, neither should I be counted worthy to enjoy the blessings conferred upon those who are faithful.

--Journal of Discourses 3:266

 

[james12]

On 7/25/2016 at 2:44 PM, Carborendum said:

On 7/25/2016 at 2:44 PM, Carborendum said:

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

I believe something that has been missing is centered around what we understand as covenant. 

Traveler, this may be the first time I've been 100% on board with what you've said.  I had this thought as well.  But I didn't want to be the first to say it.  So, thank you for saying it for me.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

A couple of thoughts:

1)  Orson F. Whitney's citing Joseph Smith about "tentacles of divine providence" seems apropos here. (Source) (Clarification by Elder Bednar)

2)  If you are a king or a queen, you need a) lawful claim on the title (which you inherit through your ancestors) and b) a kingdom.  The former comes from your sealing to your parents; the latter comes from your sealing to your spouse and children.  Consider the following, from Brigham Young:

What this is saying is that we don't "inherit all that the Father hath" through the principles of the gospel, Faith in Jesus Christ, nor directly through the Atonement.  It says that we inherit it though our earthly bloodlines.  While I see that some of our doctrines could be read that way, I'm not sure I am ready to accept that interpretation.  I'd have to have a lot more quotes, a lot more prayer, a lot more inspiration, and a lot more time to come around to that one.

But if correct, it would certainly answer the questions I had.

[james12]

13 hours ago, Carborendum said:

No, I'm not really talking about salvation for the dead.  I specifically said I get that side of the "Spirit of Elijah".  They need us to perform their work.  "They cannot be made perfect without us".  I understand this much.

I'm asking specifically about two things:

1. The other side of the equation.  How is it that WE need THEM?  "We without our dead cannot be made perfect".  That half of the equation is what I don't understand.
2. How is redeeming the dead SO IMPORTANT that the other missions of the Church are all for naught if we don't perform this one?

Yes, please explain it to me.

 

 

On 7/25/2016 at 2:44 PM, Carborendum said:

Ever since the global indexing effort, I've had a lot of thoughts floating around in my mind about this, so I haven't yet put them all together yet.  But I wanted to put a series of questions to the forum for your consideration.

Here is an excerpt from D&C 128:18

Quote

For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. 

I realize that the first sentence is what is repeated most often.  But I've recently had time to ponder the rest of the quote.  In fact, I've been quite preoccupied with the entire verse and the related verses which quote Malachi's prophecy.

What is with the "welding link"?  Somehow I don't believe that the welding of dispensations is done by family geneology.  I believe it is through the bestowal of priesthood keys from dispensation to dispensation (e.g. Elijah to Joseph Smith).

Well I've been struggling with the multi quote option so let me just leave it as it is above and comment on the matter. 

This is an important and large topic. Right now, I think I can only hit one key point about priesthood and the temple. Joseph says in D&C 128:11, "Now the great and grand secret of the whole matter, and the summum bonum of the whole subject that is lying before us, consist in obtaining the power of the Holy Priesthood. For him to whom these keys are given there is no difficulty in obtaining a knowledge of facts in relation to the salvation of the children of men, both as well for the dead as for the living." To understand priesthood is to understand the temple ordinances. Over time some truths have been impressed on my mind, let me speak of a few.  

In D&C 2, the angel Moroni says, "Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers." Let me focus on this term, "the fathers", or perhaps better written, "The Fathers". This is not referring to our parents but is a title for a certain set of individuals. Abraham helps us understand this, "And finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same,...and to possess a great knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, ad High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers. It was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me." (Abraham 1:2-4) So when Malachi is quoted as saying, "promises made to the fathers" we should understand this as the promises made to those who received the title of "Father" from God. This includes Adam, our first Father, along with Abraham, Isaiac and Jacob. But not only them, Joseph should be included along with other great Patriarch's who received the promise of God. We should turn to these Father's and seek the promise they have obtained.   

Those who have thus received the promise directly from God enter into this order. (By order it is not meant a sorting of people, but rather a group or fraternity of like individuals. Earthly examples include the Masonic Order or Order of the Phoenix if Harry Potter strikes your fancy.) In Abraham's day it was known as the Patriarchal Order. More completely it was called "the Holy Priesthood after the Order of the Son of God" (D&C 107:3). In the Book of Mormon it is often simplified to "Holy Order" or "Order of God" (see Ether 12:10 for one reference). To enter into this order is to obtain power from God, or priesthood.

One enters this priesthood order when they are sealed up, both to eternal life and to their spouse, because despite the term patriarchal order, it requires a man and a woman together. Those who become members of this holy order obtain the highest degree in the celestial kingdom as the scriptures testify, "In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; and in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]" (D&C 131:1-3). It is not sufficient to simply receive the forms, we must receive the promise for ourselves and our spouse must do likewise. Elder McConkie put it so well, "...after celestial marriage; after entering into sacred covenants in the house of the Lord; after receiving the conditional promise of the continuation of the family unit in eternity. ...We must so live as to receive the guarantees to which we have thus been called, and the assurances that appertain to our election and which are given on a conditional basis only in celestial marriage... We must press forward in righteousness until our calling and election is made sure; and this high achievement grows our of and is the crowning reward of celestial marriage. (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 3:352-353).

Those who receive such a blessing reach out to their children, pleading for them, and sooner or later "the hearts of the children turn to their fathers" for they have a part in that promise as heirs. Here then we come full circle. The Father's reaching for the sons and the son's seeking the promise of the Father's. 

Edited July 27, 2016 by james12

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, james12 said:

...the summum bonum of the whole subject that is lying before us, consist in obtaining the power of the Holy Priesthood.

 ..."The Fathers". This is not referring to our parents but is a title for a certain set of individuals

 Patriarchal Order. More completely it was called "the Holy Priesthood after the Order of the Son of God" (D&C 107:3)

One enters this priesthood order when they are sealed up, both to eternal life and to their spouse, because despite the term patriarchal order, it requires a man and a woman together. Those who become members of this holy order obtain the highest degree in the celestial kingdom as the scriptures testify, "In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; and in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]"

Those who receive such a blessing reach out to their children, pleading for them, and sooner or later "the hearts of the children turn to their fathers" for they have a part in that promise as heirs. Here then we come full circle. The Father's reaching for the sons and the son's seeking the promise of the Father's. 

Ok, I did read the whole thing, but I don't like quoting long posts in their entirety.   I did not mean to cut out some of the other meaningful phrases.  But there it is.

You now appear to be adding a spiritual bent to a similar concept to what JAG had written.  Perhaps JAG was even saying the same thing, but I just took it wrong.  This is more palatable to me intellectually than a physical bloodline.  But even so, this doesn't seem to tell the whole story unless we combine this with some sense of what Traveler was saying.

I'll have to mull a lot of this over to really "get it".

 

In the meantime, thank you.