Are there more righteous women than men?

[Guest]

In the face to face with Jeffrey Holland he said more women join the church, stay active, attend the temple, and less women are resigning. Also a book called Life Everlasting said only men rebelled with Lucifer and became SONS of Perdition, not children of perditon. So do you agree that there are more righteous women than men?

[Sunday21]

5 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

In the face to face with Jeffrey Holland he said more women join the church, stay active, attend the temple, and less women are resigning. Also a book called Life Everlasting said only men rebelled with Lucifer and became SONS of Perdition, not children of perditon. So do you agree that there are more righteous women than men?

Who wrote Life Everlasting? An apostle? If not, disregard!

[NeedleinA]

7 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

a book called Life Everlasting said only men rebelled with Lucifer and became SONS of Perdition, 

It is interesting to note that this appears to be a subject on which we have no clear answer on: Daughters or just Sons of Perdition?
While we can find quotes (opinions) that relate to males, we can also find them (opinions) relating to females. Here is a female one:

Elder Melvin J. Ballard: "[God] has other sons and daughters who do not even attain unto the telestial kingdom. They are sons of perdition out with the devil and his angels, and though the Father has grieved over them, he still has not the power to rescue and save them because He gave them free agency, and they used that in such a manner that they have shut themselves out from His presence. But He is justified. He has performed His full duty by them."

When it comes to GA statements, I think this may help in your studies moving forward. A little diagram I just made:

General Authority (GA) makes a statement, any statement. We have to decide which category their statement falls into:
1. Normal life: "I like raspberry jelly" (opinion) - not doctrine of the church to eat raspberry jelly
2. Church related Opinion: related to a gospel matter, but doesn't mean it is doctrine. "A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church." lds newsroom Approaching Mormon Doctrine
3. Doctrine: "With divine inspiration, the First Presidency...and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles...counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith." lds newsroom Approaching Mormon Doctrine

A statement that a GA gives might be in line with Doctrine, but simply because they said it, it does not necessarily constitute doctrine. I hope this helps a little Where most people get into trouble is when they try to turn #2 statements into #3 statements.

 

Edited August 11, 2016 by NeedleinA

[estradling75]

Personally I reject the idea that one sex is some how inherently spiritually superior to another. To me this goes against the promise that we all have an equal chance.

That being said I am perfectly OK with the sexes having inherently different strengths in individual items that fall under the umbrella term of spiritually.  And I accept that us flawed mortals might more easily see some of these items and place different values on them then the Lord does.  Thus giving the appearance of a spiritual sexual superiority

[zil]

7 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

Also a book called Life Everlasting said only men rebelled with Lucifer and became SONS of Perdition, not children of perditon.

Until that's doctrine, take it for what it's worth, something some book claimed.

7 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

In the face to face with Jeffrey Holland he said more women join the church, stay active, attend the temple, and less women are resigning. .... So do you agree that there are more righteous women than men?

Technicality: I'm assuming the "righteous" descriptor should be placed in front of the last word of your question (as it would be irrational otherwise).

Also, I will note that you are assuming the circumstance described by Elder Holland is a (the only?) measure of "righteous" and drawing a conclusion which may or may not be merited.  E.g. what if there are more males born in the church, to the point of balancing it out?

Finally, and I mean this as gently as I can, though I don't know how to convey that in words: this really looks like a back-door way to continue obsessing about polygamy (or plural marriage).  Whether it is true or false alters nothing in regards to our responsibilities as disciples of Christ here and now.

 

29 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

1. Normal life: "I like raspberry jelly" (opinion) - not doctrine of the church to eat raspberry jelly

You mean I've been enduring that stuff every morning for nothing!?

[NeedleinA]

5 minutes ago, zil said:

Finally, and I mean this as gently as I can, though I don't know how to convey that in words: this really looks like a back-door way to continue obsessing about polygamy (or plural marriage).

This was my feeling from the post too.

Zarahemla, I went through your previously posted "quotes" and the reference you made to the other supposed "Mormon" forum (I won't repeat the name). Putting them together I found the thread that I believe you are stuck on over there. The entire premise of that thread is an attempt to justify rejecting/disavowing parts of Section 132. I would suggest leaving that thread alone. I would also strongly suggest leaving that site alone and placing your efforts else where. For me, I am never looking for reasons to "reject" the scriptures. I am learning and looking for ways to understand them and apply them in my life, not ways to by pass them or find a loop-hole that fits my desired wants.

 

[Traveler]

It is possible and perhaps likely that women are more righteous than men both in quality and quantity.  So convinced am I convinced of this point – that, as a man, I feel it necessary to marry a woman.  But I am also convinced that being married to one person more righteous than me is sufficient enough for me.

 

The Traveler

Edited August 11, 2016 by Traveler

[Guest MormonGator]

2 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Personally I reject the idea that one sex is some how inherently spiritually superior to another. To me this goes against the promise that we all have an equal chance.

 Exactly. Men and women are both flawed in different ways, and virtuous in different ways. 

[tesuji]

10 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

In the face to face with Jeffrey Holland he said more women join the church, stay active, attend the temple, and less women are resigning. ... So do you agree that there are more righteous women than men?

I've wondered about this. I think it is conventional wisdom in the church that more women will make it to the Celestial Kingdom. 

I've wondered if this is just a Victorian notion that has persisted.

But you have the quote from Elder Holland - how do you explain that?

And you have quotes like this from prophets:

Quote

Woman is God’s supreme creation. Only after the earth had been formed, after the day had been separated from the night, after the waters had been divided from the land, after vegetation and animal life had been created, and after man had been placed on the earth, was woman created; and only then was the work pronounced complete and good.

Of all the creations of the Almighty, there is none more beautiful, none more inspiring than a lovely daughter of God who walks in virtue with an understanding of why she should do so, who honors and respects her body as a thing sacred and divine, who cultivates her mind and constantly enlarges the horizon of her understanding, who nurtures her spirit with everlasting truth. God will hold us accountable if we neglect His daughters. He has given us a great and compelling trust. May we be faithful to that trust.

Gordon B. Hinckley, https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/09/our-responsibility-to-our-young-women?lang=eng

 

Edited August 11, 2016 by tesuji

[LeSellers]

10 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

Also a book called Life Everlasting said only men rebelled with Lucifer and became SONS of Perdition, not children of perditon.

In most languages I know of, including English, "sons" is not sexually exclusive, and includes all children, including daughters.

Lehi

[tesuji]

10 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

Also a book called Life Everlasting said only men rebelled with Lucifer and became SONS of Perdition, not children of perditon. 

I'm very skeptical about this. Can you give the actual quote, and is it just the author or is it a GA?

The book is, the following, correct?

Life Everlasting: A Definitive Study of Life After Death
by Duane S. Crowther

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, tesuji said:

I've wondered about this. I think it is conventional wisdom in the church that more women will make it to the Celestial Kingdom. 

I've wondered if this is just a Victorian notion that has persisted.

It's a religious thing. Growing up catholic we were told how men were more evil and women were gracious and virtuous holders of chastity and morals. We had punishments (more than one, actually) here the boys in the class had to do extra work and the girls didn't. 

Without starting a gender war, this was far from the truth. It's not pleasant to talk about because for obvious reasons-women want to defend women and men want to defend men-so both genders are not rational and fair with this. 

Edited August 11, 2016 by MormonGator

[tesuji]

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It's a religious thing. Growing up catholic we were told how men were more evil and women were gracious and virtuous holders of chastity and morals. Without starting a gender war, this was far from the truth. It's not pleasant to talk about because for obvious reasons-women want to defend women and men want to defend men-so few are rational and fair with this. 

I would have thought maybe you are right. But did you see the rest of my post? Prophets have promoted the idea that women are spiritually superior.

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, tesuji said:

. But did you see the rest of my post? Prophets have promoted the idea that women are spiritually superior.

I did, I just have nothing to say about that part so I didn't quote it. 

But if women are "spiritually superior" I'd love to talk about the ones that are bad mothers (nagging, throwing guilt trips, manipulating their husbands/children) with the prophets. 

And again, I do think men do stupid things too and no, not all women are like what I described. This is why talking about this is so awkward. We're quick to jump on things and misread words. 

Edited August 11, 2016 by MormonGator

[tesuji]

6 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I did, I just have nothing to say about that part so I didn't quote it. 

But if women are "spiritually superior" I'd love to talk about the ones that are bad mothers (nagging, throwing guilt trips, manipulating their husbands/children) with the prophets. 

It seems to me what you hear from the church is that women tend to be more spiritual than men. In general. 

Saying they are "spiritually superior" doesn't ring quite right, although I think I've said it myself here. 

Edited August 11, 2016 by tesuji

[Guest MormonGator]

15 minutes ago, tesuji said:

It seems to me what you hear from the church is that women tend to be more spiritual than men. In general. 

 

Maybe. Who knows. You can't lump all women together as "more spiritual" and you can't lump all men together as "more spiritual". Women and men are individuals first and foremost. There are evil and selfish men, there are evil and selfish women. And of course there are struggles that women have that men can relate too and vice versa. 

Edited August 11, 2016 by MormonGator

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, tesuji said:

I'm very skeptical about this. Can you give the actual quote, and is it just the author or is it a GA?

The book is, the following, correct?

Life Everlasting: A Definitive Study of Life After Death
by Duane S. Crowther

Mosiah Hancock's vision.

[tesuji]

31 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Maybe. Who knows. You can't lump all women together as "more spiritual" and you can't lump all men together as "more spiritual". Women and men are individuals first and foremost. There are evil and selfish men, there are evil and selfish women. And of course there are struggles that women have that men can relate too and vice versa. 

I don't understand why you're ignoring the second part of my post, about statements by prophets. I think you have to address that before making any statements about it.

[tesuji]

39 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

Mosiah Hancock's vision.

Looks like it's here:

http://mormon-chronicles.blogspot.com/2007/12/mosiah-hancock-vision-of-preexistence.html

Somebody read this and let us know

I will have time to read it later. Obviously something to take with a huge grain of salt, but I love reading this kind of thing and pondering on it.

I approach these the same way I would the apocrypha:

Quote

 1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning theApocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;

 2 There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men.

 3 Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated.

 4 Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;

 5 And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom;

 6 And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited. Therefore it is not needful that it should be translated. Amen.

D&C 91

 

Edited August 11, 2016 by tesuji

[tesuji]

18 minutes ago, tesuji said:

Looks like it's here:

http://mormon-chronicles.blogspot.com/2007/12/mosiah-hancock-vision-of-preexistence.html

Somebody read this and let us know

I will have time to read it later. Obviously something to take with a huge grain of salt, but I love reading this kind of thing and pondering on it.

 

OK, I just read it. Wow, very interesting.

Assuming this text is authentic, you still can't call this authoritative, as far as establishing doctrine. If it had been read out loud in general conference then I would believe it. Until then, I'm taking it with a huge grain of salt.

So it doesn't help this discussion, in my opinion.

Edited August 11, 2016 by tesuji

[NeedleinA]

1 hour ago, Zarahemla said:

Mosiah Hancock's vision.

Here is an alternative to spending time reading and worrying about Mosiah's supposed "vision".

Teachings of Brigham Young: Chapter 12: Preventing Personal Apostasy  -  Brigham Young: "What is that which turns people away from this Church? Very trifling affairs are generally the commencement of their divergence from the right path. If we follow a compass, the needle of which does not point correctly, a very slight deviation in the beginning will lead us, when we have traveled some distance, far to one side of the true point for which we are aiming (DBY, 83).

Why would any of us lend an ear or waste a moment of credibility to a supposed vision of Mosiah Hancock? How many on these fringe/obscure type links, quotes, comments does someone need to read before they realize their efforts are being wasted on a compass that is not pointing them in the right direction?

I classify the internet's version of Mosiah's Vision on par with: The Horseshoe Prophecy
http://askgramps.org/validity-horseshoe-prophecy/

36 minutes ago, tesuji said:

So it doesn't help this discussion, in my opinion.

Agreed

 

[NightSG]

5 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

General Authority (GA) makes a statement, any statement. We have to decide which category their statement falls into:
1. Normal life: "I like raspberry jelly" (opinion) - not doctrine of the church to eat raspberry jelly

Not doctrine, but instant tradition you will be shunned for not heeding.

Quote

2. Church related Opinion: related to a gospel matter, but doesn't mean it is doctrine. "A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church."

Yet will slowly be mingled into doctrine by those who have decided it should be.

Quote

3. Doctrine: "With divine inspiration, the First Presidency...and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles...counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith." 

Entirely open to debate as to obscure, archaic or flat-out made up meanings for the words used.  Also, mistranslations poorly re-translated back to English by Google may be substituted for the actual doctrine.

[NeedleinA]

38 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Not doctrine, but instant tradition you will be shunned for not heeding.

Technically the shunning happens with fruit Jell-O not raspberry jelly.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

In the face to face with Jeffrey Holland he said more women join the church, stay active, attend the temple, and less women are resigning. Also a book called Life Everlasting said only men rebelled with Lucifer and became SONS of Perdition, not children of perditon. So do you agree that there are more righteous women than men?

1) Ignore that statement by Bro. Crowther.
2) We need to separate the current statistical reality (which may be from a number of factors) from the inherent nature of male/female righteousness.

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

1) Ignore that statement by Bro. Crowther.
 

Yup. Stripping women of their moral accountability immediately infantalizes them.