Doubt

[Traveler]

There is much that I would like to say about doubt but I am not sure how much of what is on my mind that is appropriate for a forum discussion.  Part of the problem with doubt, as I see it, is how we define or think about doubt.  Most think of doubt as the opposite of faith.  There have been a number of such talks that put doubt in opposition to faith.  But I am not sure doubt is always in opposition to faith – sometimes doubt can be a catalysis to greater faith.

I am thinking doubt is not so much a problem as what we do with it.

I open this discussion – not knowing where it will go or even where I would like it to go – which is itself an element of doubt – how ironic is that?

 

The Traveler

[zil]

Since you're starting it, maybe you should define "doubt" so that there's a direction and focus for the thread.  Otherwise, everyone will be posting with their subconscious definition of "doubt" and the results will not be as useful as if we at least come close to a shared meaning for the word.

[jerome1232]

Isn't doubt and hope kinda of relative to each other? I sort of imagine a sliding scale in my head of how doubtful and how hopeful you are regarding a subject. That's what it is isn't it? We can never be 100% certain, so there is always a little doubt even in a faithful, hopeful person and vice versa.

But once you are a person of faith (having hope) you will have some doubt, if you let the doubt overtake your hope, that certainly is a bad thing. If doubt enters in and overtakes your hope, and as you seem to hint, it causes you to research, study, ponder, and to investigate which may lead to a confirmation of your hopes and greater faith I still maintain that it is opposite hope and that faith is a type of hope.

[zil]

I believe what it says in Lectures on Faith about the relation between doubt and faith (e.g. "For doubt and faith do not exist in the same person at the same time..."), and that doubt hinders faith and is something to be overcome.  Hence my suggestion that step one is to define what "doubt" means.  Lacking knowledge and having questions are NOT the same as doubt.

Edited October 4, 2016 by zil

[estradling75]

Lets not confuse Faith with Belief either...  I would call Faith... acting on Belief...  Therefore if Faith and Doubt are part of the same spectrum then I would have to say Doubt is acting on Disbelief...  Thus Faith and Doubt can't exist together because we can only act one way at a time.

However if we say that Belief and Doubt are part of the same spectrum then I would say they could exist together because they are not actions they are a state of mind.

So yeah for this kind of discussion we need to have an agreement on the meaning and how we well use the various terms

 

[Larry Cotrell]

Defining doubt as a feeling of uncertainty, I would say there have been times when doubt has strengthened my belief in God and thus strengthened my "faith actions."

Here's an example, let's say someone is doubting that God exists. Because, they want to find the truth, they dive into the study of apologetics. This person comes out with a better understanding of logical and philosophical reasons that God exists. Thus their belief in God is strengthened.

I know that the times in my life when I've doubted certain things (and we all have at some point) have been the times when I grow in my faith because my doubt causes me to study the Word of God more closely. This doesn't only apply to the big questions, like how do we know Jesus really rose from the dead. It also applies to doctrinal questions about specific things. I was going to use the example of when I doubted (had a feeling of uncertainty about) the trinity... but I won't go there.

Here's my point. Doubt causes you to study and search for answers, which has a positive impact in the end.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Larry Cotrell

[Guest MormonGator]

26 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Defining doubt as a feeling of uncertainty, I would say there have been times when doubt has strengthened my belief in God and thus strengthened my "faith actions."

Here's an example, let's say someone is doubting that God exists. Because, they want to find the truth, they dive into the study of apologetics. This person comes out with a better understanding of logical and philosophical reasons that God exists. Thus their belief in God is strengthened.

I know that the times in my life when I've doubted certain things (and we all have at some point) have been the times when I grow in my faith because my doubt causes me to study the Word of God more closely. This doesn't only apply to the big questions, like how do we know Jesus really rose from the dead. It also applies to doctrinal questions about specific things. I was going to use the example of when I doubted (had a feeling of uncertainty about) the trinity... but I won't go there.

Here's my point. Doubt causes you to study and search for answers, which has a positive impact in the end.

Well said. Amen 

[zil]

1 hour ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Doubt causes you to study and search for answers, which has a positive impact in the end.

And I say faith causes you to study and search for answers in hope of eliminating doubt.  If you had no hope that your study would lead to answers (i.e. if you doubt it would do any good), you would never start, but you have faith that by study you can obtain answers, and so you study.

"...faith is the assurance which men have of the existence of things which they have not seen, and the principle of action in all intelligent beings... it is faith, and faith only, which is the moving cause of all action in them..."  (Lectures on Faith, 1:9 & 10)

[Guest MormonGator]

13 minutes ago, zil said:

.  If you had no hope that your study would lead to answers (i.e. if you doubt it would do any good), you would never start, but you have faith that by study you can obtain answers, and so you study.

This is true as well. Often times you'll find what you want to find. IE-When you read Shakespeare. Shockingly, feminists find a feminist Shakespeare, atheists find an atheist. Catholics find a Catholic and monarchists find a monarch. It's hard to do "research" that is truly objective because we as humans aren't objective. 

[Larry Cotrell]

32 minutes ago, zil said:

And I say faith causes you to study and search for answers in hope of eliminating doubt.  If you had no hope that your study would lead to answers (i.e. if you doubt it would do any good), you would never start, but you have faith that by study you can obtain answers, and so you study.

Definitely, you do have to have some faith to look in the right place for answers.

19 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

This is true as well. Often times you'll find what you want to find. IE-When you read Shakespeare. Shockingly, feminists find a feminist Shakespeare, atheists find an atheist. Catholics find a Catholic and monarchists find a monarch. It's hard to do "research" that is truly objective because we as humans aren't objective. 

Also true, but I have found that many people want their religion to be true because it is the foundation of their lives. This is not always the case, but a lot of the time people look for what supports what they have believed in and based their life on because its harder to do a 180. What I mean is that because people generally want their religion to be true, they will try to find evidence to support that it is true when they doubt.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Larry Cotrell

[MrShorty]

Another potential positive effect of "doubt" might be letting our doubt teach us to rely on the Savior. I am thinking of the account in Mark 9 of the father who asked the Savior to heal his child. When the Savior said that it would be possible through his belief, and the father responded with "I believe, help thou mine unbelief."

[Anddenex]

These are three principles that I state my thoughts:

1) Doubting truth is a form of spiritual immaturity
2) Faith and doubt cannot occupy the same space within our thoughts, or as zil mentioned, "For doubt and faith do not exist in the same person at the same time..."
3) There is a difference between doubting truth, and doubting a lie. Hearing your best friend tell a "fish story," which results in us saying, "I doubt that."
4) God is merciful with his children, even in their doubt; however, this doesn't make doubt a positive trait

In reference to the first principle Christ is our exemplar. We are commanded in scripture to be like him. There wasn't any time the Lord doubted truth, or he would not have been who he was. Christ spoke of things as if they had already occurred. When his Father spoke, he believed, and he moved forward in faith without any doubt. He is our exemplar in moving forward with faith, hope, and charity. Doubt is a human trait, not a Godly trait. President Brigham Young had this to offer, "When you read the revelations, or when you hear the will of the Lord concerning you, for your own sakes never receive that with a doubtful heart"

He further stated, "A great many good people, who possess much of the Spirit of the Lord are naturally given to doubting, having so little self-reliance that they sometimes doubt whether they are Saints in truth or not. These often doubt when they should not. So long as they are walking humbly before God, keeping his commandments, and observing his ordinances, feeling willing to give all for Christ, and do everything that will promote his Kingdom, they need never doubt, for the Spirit will testify to them whether they are of God or not."

In reference to the second principle, we will either move forward in faith, or stand still with doubt. Faith allowed Peter to walk on water. Doubt and fear caused him to sink beneath the surface. How often do we read the words in scripture, "doubting nothing or nothing doubting"? How often do we read, hear, the Lord say, "Ask me, with a little doubt, but more faith and I will answer you"? Never. The initial scripture that catalyzed the restoration and its companion verse, "nothing wavering," is important. Joseph trusted fully in God and with nothing wavering. When Lehi and his family were struggling, doubt caused them to murmur. All except Nephi, murmur by the catalyst of doubt. If not for Nephi's faith, the outcome of that particular circumstance would have been very different.

The third principle references doubting lies. This is healthy. This leads us to learn the truth. A modern example is individuals who have falsely accused the Church and an innocent listener doubts what is being said. The doubter investigates the Church and eventually is baptized. If we do not have a perfect knowledge of any story or experience, doubt is healthy if we are doubting lies. The Spirit of Chris is given to all that they may know good (truth) from evil (lies). If we are people of faith, hope, and charity (like our Master), we will not doubt when truth is given.

This leads into the fourth principle, God is merciful although we doubt (a human trait). When the Savior was crucified, following his resurrection, he appeared to his Apostles. Some of them were not convinced Jesus was resurrected and believe him still to be an unembodied spirit. He then ate with them dispelling their doubt. Was doubt necessary? No. Others did not doubt, but were believing. With the apostle Thomas we receive the following, "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." Blessed are those who did not doubt, because they had not yet seen.

President Uchtdorf had this to say with God's mercy for those that entertain doubt, “It’s natural to have questions—the acorn of honest inquiry has often sprouted and matured into a great oak of understanding. There are few members of the Church who, at one time or another, have not wrestled with serious or sensitive questions. One of the purposes of the Church is to nurture and cultivate the seed of faith—even in the sometimes sandy soil of doubt and uncertainty."

[zil]

Thank you, @Anddenex!  I was hoping you or Needle or JAG would respond (as I thought you could respond better than I).  Threads like this worry me, especially if we don't limit the definition of "doubt" because they could make people believe their doubt (which may or may not be what we're describing) or any doubt is a good thing - and I am thoroughly convinced by all my knowledge (yes, feeble) and experience (yes, limited) that doubt is not good in any way - it is limiting and discouraging.  Faith expands and frees us.

[Traveler]

There have been some excellent posts – I need to go back over them and consider carefully what each are saying.  One thought woven into this thread that greatly interest me is the one that we tend to view things as we want to see them.  That is kind of a Segway in to something I value.  I tend to see reality from my point of view.  What I cannot perceive – I cannot realize to be true.  When others are expressing what I cannot see or have not seen – I very much wonder why and how they see it.  If they cannot answer my questions in a way I can understand; then their expressions (or beliefs) are not real to me and I doubt they are connected to reality.

My quest is a quest for truth and from my particular point of view if I cannot know something -- then that something is in doubt – I doubt everything that I do not know to be true and that doubt remains at some level till I know if it is true or not. I must admit to myself that there are some things I must press forward in faith as a test to attempt to gain the truth of it.  If I test and cannot realize or come to know the truth of it then my doubt increases.  If I test it and it seem to unfold and bring me closer to knowledge then my doubt decreases.  But for me doubt is a trigger to me to search deeper for truth – which I believe from my life experiences comes only by knowledge.  For me, faith is the ambition that drives me through doubt to truth – one way or the other.

But also, if I have been down a path that does not yield the truth and knowledge that other claim to have received – I begin to doubt their objectivity and honest search for truth – rather I doubt that they love truth but desire rather to make what they want to be truth the truth.  But I have run into a paradox conundrum – that is the some people can be dead wrong about some things and absolute right about others.  I do not understand how this is possible except that they are willing to search out the truth for some things but doubt the very process for others.  I am inclined to think that their emotions and desires take over and the force themselves do to believe nonsense.  Nonsense that if they really tested they would realize the flaw but they will not allow their eyes to see.

I will give one example.  I had a daughter that when in school struggled with math – I love the logic of math and spent many hours trying to teach her to love the process of applying math to determine truth.  One day I worked a math problem with her that was quite complex and when we arrived at the answer she looked in the back of her book and it gave a different answer.  I doubted the book and she doubted me and the process to get the answer.  She could not believe that I would not give in that I could be wrong.  She was determined to put me in my place – but I have come to trust the process.  She took the problem to her teacher that went through our process and researched and discovered the book to have an error.  My daughter still could not understand how I would doubt the book and not our process – I explained that the purpose of the book is the teach us the process – if we cannot trust the process the book teaches for the correct answer then the book has already failed us.

I view religion, scripture and these things the same as the math book – if we cannot find the same answers by the processes they give us – then that religion and scripture is not true or the interpertation we think is the answer is wrong.  It does not matter to me how popular a answer is believe to be right - if the process was not right then the answer is in doubt to me.  And the strange thing -- the more popular the answer that it becomes more popular than the process - I doubt it the more - even from the mouth of an expert.

I love the LDS concept - of study it - take it as far as you can then ask G-d.

 

The Traveler

Edited October 5, 2016 by Traveler

[CV75]

On 10/4/2016 at 0:19 PM, Traveler said:

There is much that I would like to say about doubt but I am not sure how much of what is on my mind that is appropriate for a forum discussion.  Part of the problem with doubt, as I see it, is how we define or think about doubt.  Most think of doubt as the opposite of faith.  There have been a number of such talks that put doubt in opposition to faith.  But I am not sure doubt is always in opposition to faith – sometimes doubt can be a catalysis to greater faith.

I am thinking doubt is not so much a problem as what we do with it.

I open this discussion – not knowing where it will go or even where I would like it to go – which is itself an element of doubt – how ironic is that?

 

The Traveler

No doubt!: doubt can be functional, non-functional or dysfunctional. The talks that put doubt in opposition to faith in Christ and His teachings are just that. But doubt can steer someone away from error and into greater faith, But only if the apply... faith! Along with the right effort and work of the right kind.

[Anddenex]

17 hours ago, Traveler said:

My quest is a quest for truth and from my particular point of view if I cannot know something -- then that something is in doubt – I doubt everything that I do not know to be true and that doubt remains at some level till I know if it is true or not.

The first question, from your view point, why do you feel if you do not know something, then this is doubt?

There are plenty of things I don't know, and I do not need to doubt something to begin to know something. I only need to begin with what I know, recognize their is more knowledge and then move forward in faith for the remaining knowledge.

Example, we know we have a Heavenly Mother. A common question is, "Why isn't she on the front lines more, or why don't we know more about her"? The concept of not knowing everything is not doubt. I don't doubt her existence. I don't doubt their is a reason. I can search through proper channels to know, and what I don't know I don't need any doubt to learn more about her. The opposite is true. I need to exercise faith to learn more, until I finally receive the full witness of what I already know. I believe I already know two principles why. I know there are more. What I don't know yet is not doubt, it is simply, I don't know and I know there is more. What other have shared reverts back to principle #3, we will often specify "I doubt that" regarding other people's witness, and yet we don't need to doubt either. We can search the truth ourselves through the pattern God has given. As I have searched, I have come to understand there is a difference between saying "I don't know, I will look into that," and "I doubt that." The former doesn't require doubt to exist, only faith.

17 hours ago, Traveler said:

I do not understand how this is possible except that they are willing to search out the truth for some things but doubt the very process for others.  I am inclined to think that their emotions and desires take over and the force themselves do to believe nonsense.  Nonsense that if they really tested they would realize the flaw but they will not allow their eyes to see.

This statement we agree on. A statement that inwardly we need to train ourselves to recognize when we are experiencing this ourselves. This is the reason why there are so many religions. People are more concerned with what brings them comfort, rather than what is true. We are innately habitual comfort creatures. What we have come to believe the adversary has been able to distort ever so slightly that what was a part of truth now is no longer recognizable. This is why there is a non-gender Bible. People are looking for comfort in their own truths rather than accepting what is really true.

I think an irony of the experience with your daughter is that the book gave the process and the book also gave the answer. I remember experiencing this myself, not with my parents helping me, but on my own accord. I remember thinking finally I got the answer, and then to check the answer in the back and see that I was wrong. So I tried the process again and again and still could not get the answer in the back. I "trusted" the book was giving me the right process and the right answer, but I did not have confidence (I doubted) in my own ability to know I was doing the process right. Whereas other kids in school, did not doubt their ability, confronted teacher and proved the book wrong. Doubt in my ability to follow the process caused much grief, in contrast with my fellow students who did not doubt their ability to know the answer and as such they knew the book was wrong. I would have been better off if 1) I did not doubt the process 2) I did not doubt in myself that I could find the answer. I didn't learn this until 20 years later after taking college math courses again while going back to school. The result went from D- in math to an A, and even on some tests I was able to get 100%. I hadn't received 100% on any math test since the sixth grade. Doubt was a stumbling block and an inhibitor.

[Guest]

Furthering the semantics...

Miriam-Webster

Quote

noun

1. a feeling of uncertainty or lack of conviction.

verb

1. feel uncertain about.

2. archaic -- fear; be afraid of.

Dictionary.com

Quote

verb (used without object)

1.to be uncertain about; consider questionable or unlikely; hesitate to believe.

2. to distrust.

3. Archaic. to fear; be apprehensive about.

4. to be uncertain about something; be undecided in opinion or belief.

noun

5. a feeling of uncertainty about the truth, reality, or nature of something.

6. distrust.

7. a state of affairs such as to occasion uncertainty.

8. Obsolete. fear; dread.

There is the uncertainty or questioning.  That is fine.  It can be helpful.

There is the fear, distrust, and suspicion.  That is only good when it is not truth.  It is not helpful if applied to truth.

The question is, when are you fearing, distrusting, and being suspicious about truth?

Edited October 6, 2016 by Guest

[Traveler]

10 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Furthering the semantics...

Miriam-Webster

Dictionary.com

There is the uncertainty or questioning.  That is fine.  It can be helpful.

There is the fear, distrust, and suspicion.  That is only good when it is not truth.  It is not helpful if applied to truth.

The question is, when are you fearing, distrusting, and being suspicious about truth?

The answer to your last question - at least for me - is that fear is very much a part of me when I do not have knowledge of the truth.  Fear of the unknown is not a new concept.  There is fear, suspicion and distrust for me when I do not have knowledge of the truth.  For me belief is not enough to disperse these things – only knowledge.

Often in my consulting work I will face questions about capabilities of robots and my answer is always that I do not accept the documentation – until I have tested the capabilities I cannot vouch for what will happen.  I remember well working on site with new robots with workmen in the area of the shadow of an ASRS (automated storage and retrieval system).  Some engineers wanted to test some components and I would not okay power on until the workmen and vacated the area.  A huge argument ensued about how I was wasting everybody’s time (we were behind schedule) and how everyone was so sure there would not be a problem.  I physically blocked the power panel and ordered the workmen to stand clear.  They would only move inches from the foot print of the ASRS robot – and then the power was turned on.  A feedback powered the shuttle motors and despite the auto breaking and locking failsafe the shuttle was forced down to where the workmen had been; missing them by only inches and hitting the bottom with such force the ground shook.  Two of the workmen fainted realizing they would have been killed if I had not insisted despite all the other experts sure that they would be safe.

With our salvation and eternal life in the balance I am amazed that so many care so little about themselves and their loved ones that they are willing to gamble it all with unknown and confusing aspects of doctrine in conflict with principles they claim to hold eternally dear – claiming that it is a matter of faith to believe such things.  There are some things about religion that I doubt, for which I have suspicion and I fear may not be correct.  My only hope is that G-d will be merciful with us all at the Day of Judgment.  My personal plan is to beg for mercy for all things for which I hope for but do not have knowledge of.  But I cannot tell others to believe in things that I do not know are true.  I fear the consequences of lies – even though I hope them to be true.  I can say that I hope, that I believe – but in truth there are some things I do not know – and yes I fear least such things are not as I hope.

I know there must be a Christ – but I fear that many believe false principles that they think define Christ and deep down – I have some fears that I am among such.  Outside of LDS and the work for the dead and salvation for all that do not understand in this life – I do not see how other Christians can hope for themselves then they think that there is no hope for those ignorant of Christ.  Keep in mind we are warned about believing in false Christ – or for that matter – false notions of Christ

Sorry for my rant folks – but thinking and believing one is right and ignoring doubt – does not define faith to me – to be honest it looks more like stupidity to me.  Faith to me is to keep searching for truth until you know it.  And for me everything I come to know only makes more aware the vastness of all that I do not know.  One of my great fears is in those that think they know things they really don't.

 

The Traveler

[zil]

29 minutes ago, Traveler said:

The answer to your last question - at least for me - is that fear is very much a part of me when I do not have knowledge of the truth.

Then how is it that you're not terrified every waking minute of every day?  Because it is 100% guaranteed, and I'm reasonably certain you know this, that the knowledge you do have is less than a fraction of a percent of the knowledge available in the universe.

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Traveler said:

1) Often in my consulting work I will face questions about capabilities of robots and my answer is always that I do not accept the documentation – until I have tested the capabilities I cannot vouch for what will happen. 

2) There are some things about religion that I doubt, for which I have suspicion and I fear may not be correct...

3) I can say that I hope, that I believe – but in truth there are some things I do not know – and yes I fear least such things are not as I hope.

4) I know there must be a Christ – but I fear that many believe false principles that they think define Christ and deep down – I have some fears that I am among such. 

5) but thinking and believing one is right and ignoring doubt – does not define faith to me – to be honest it looks more like stupidity to me. 

6) Faith to me is to keep searching for truth until you know it. 

OK, so you're basically taking the semantics to another level down the rabbit hole.  Fine go there.  But I'll just look down the rabbit hole -- not because I fear what is down there -- but because I just don't care to go down it.

1) Your "fear" you describe in #1 is exactly what Moroni warned against when it comes to spiritual things

Quote

..I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

In temporal things, yes the fear is exactly what you need.  But with spiritual things, there can be no witness until you choose to have faith in the first place.  In this context faith is likened to courage.  It isn't the absence of fear, but a willingness go move forward in spite of it.  That is definitely not what engineers like to do when authorizing this or that because everything is on the line and there really is no appeal.  But with the Lord, we have an appeal.  We have our good intentions and the fact that He is merciful.

2) Go ahead and suspect.  My only point was that there is a difference between suspicion and an "I wonder".  If you truly "suspect" (used in the most sinister sense) that the Dogmatic elements of our faith are wrong then that's where we part ways.  But if you're saying "suspect" in an intellectual/academic sense only... not really a problem.  Explore it and see where it goes.

3) The hope is just the first step (as Alma said "a desire to believe").  There is nothing wrong with that.  It seems that is just what we're supposed to do.

4) That sounds like the fear of God, rather than a fear of a boogie man.  I don't see anything wrong with that.

5) Who says that we're ignoring doubt?  It was just a matter of what type of doubt we're talking about.  Is it,"I really doubt Pres. Monson is a real Prophet.  He's just too old"?  Or is it "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief"?  The first kind of doubt is based on pride.  The other is based on humility.

6) Yes, I don't see how anyone said otherwise.  I think that's what all of us believe.

[Guest MormonGator]

16 hours ago, Traveler said:

  Faith to me is to keep searching for truth until you know it.

It is to me too, that's why I joined the LDS church. I can't say doubt is bad, because if I hadn't doubted the church I was raised in,  I wouldn't be here. I think it depends on how you use doubt.

I know what you mean @Traveler. Believe me, I wish I was one of those people who was just programmed to ignore reason/critical thinking and not ask questions or be skeptical. it would have made my life much, much easier. My natural curiosity get me in a lot of trouble. 

The brilliant theologian Reinhold Niebuhr has a quote that I love. "A frantic orthodoxy is rooted not in faith, but in doubt. It's when you are not sure that you are quite sure." And he was a believer. 
 

Edited October 7, 2016 by MormonGator

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

"A frantic orthodoxy is rooted not in faith, but in doubt. It's when you are not sure that you are quite sure."

Well, I'm not so sure about that. 

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Well, I'm not so sure about that. 

How meta! 
 

[Traveler]

This is turning out to be much more interesting that I thought.  Everything I view, understand and come to know all revolves around what I can consciously be aware of.  If someone claims to be aware of something that I cannot connect to and be aware of – I have doubt.  Sometimes my doubt is that perhaps they did not experience what they claim to have experienced and sometimes I doubt that their explanation of their experience and sometimes I doubt my understanding of what they are describing.

Perhaps I should give some examples.  I know that Joseph Smith’s description of what we call the first vision is true account concerning the darkness of Satan and the light of the Father and the Son.  I have doubts that everything Joseph did was directed by the spirit of light – I am concerned that he made some mistakes.  I also know that the Book of Mormon is a gift that comes from the light of G-d the Father and his Son – Jesus Christ.  I have doubt that we (as a church and as individuals) have a clear understand of the Book of Mormon prophesies and how they apply to what we are seeing in our government and society.  I doubt we understand what is about to happen – so I have some fears concerning our economy, and stability of families.  I also have some doubt and fear that I personally am not adequately prepared for what will happen – especially over the next few years.

I doubt the Bible to be an accurate enough document (preserved) to be relied upon to draw criticism concerning what we can empirically realize.  Examples – I have doubt that the Biblical account of the “Creation” is a better account of origins of our earth, solar system, galaxy and universe that what we are currently observing as the birth of stars and solar systems.  I have some fear that those that insist that anything contrary to their understanding of scripture must be understood to be evil and a temptation from Satan that is evil and must be punished whatever means “good” Christians (or Muslims) have at their disposal.

 

The Traveler

[Larry Cotrell]

20 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I have some fear that those that insist that anything contrary to their understanding of scripture must be understood to be evil and a temptation from Satan that is evil and must be punished whatever means “good” Christians (or Muslims) have at their disposal.

Do you consider Muslims followers of Christ or followers of a false Christ?