It's Not Pertinent To Your Salvation

[zil]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Just curious.  Did you ever see the new series?

No.  Didn't even know it existed.  I'm assuming it's on TV you have to pay for?  (I know nothing about TV you have to pay for.)  Anywho, I'm a book person mostly, and not SciFi, unless it's written by L. E. Modesitt, Jr..

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, zil said:

No.  Didn't even know it existed.  I'm assuming it's on TV you have to pay for?  (I know nothing about TV you have to pay for.)  Anywho, I'm a book person mostly, and not SciFi, unless it's written by L. E. Modesitt, Jr..

It was on Sci-Fi channel.  In some ways it was better than the original series.  In other ways it was just a rip off.

But now I'm going to have to make it my mission on this board to get you "into" sci-fi.  We'll see who wins whom over (you to sci-fi or me to fountain pens).

[zil]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

It was on Sci-Fi channel.  In some ways it was better than the original series.  In other ways it was just a rip off.

But now I'm going to have to make it my mission on this board to get you "into" sci-fi.  We'll see who wins whom over (you to sci-fi or me to fountain pens).

Please note the following, lest you get too frustrated:

a) I will not pay for TV (or movies, for that matter)

b) I've read sci-fi and have more than enough money to buy more if I wanted, but am not compelled to do so.  (So it's not like there's some great thing out there I've never tried.)

c) I have at least 8 fantasy novels (swords, horses, magic style) in the house, waiting for me to read them - this genre is compelling.  (And three different Amazon wish lists are full of possibilities - and no other fiction genres.)

d) I started with mysteries, then switched to espionage exclusively (once I discovered it), but stopped reading it when they stopped writing it (trust me, what they write now is not it).  (I was writing espionage stories during the time it was available to read.)

e) My husband, despairing over how I wasn't reading anymore, convinced me to try sci-fi and fantasy.  The sci-fi was OK.  The fantasy was like coming home to someplace I'd spent my life looking for.  I read several fantasy novels, then sat down and spent every waking moment either reading it or writing it (three 180,000-word novels written in 3 months*; the fourth took longer; life has interrupted the final one).  Fantasy is my genre, and it was the similarities between it and espionage which, I now know, was my reason for loving espionage (both allow you to explore the character outside the realm of reality (aka accepted norms of thought / behavior - which do not apply to spies)).  When my brain has a free moment, it is exploring a fantasy story.

Having been to sci-fi land and having found home elsewhere after going there, you're unlikely to find success.  I read L.E. Modesitt's sci-fi because I like his writing, because the sci-fi often has a fantasy-like element, because he doesn't churn out fantasy novels fast enough (and he's fast), and because his sci-fi is also about the character (not the science - the science is just a setting wherein to explore the character - the science itself holds no fascination for me).

I'm not a "lots of different stuff" person - I'm a "find something and drown in it" person.

[Vort]

18 hours ago, Carborendum said:

So, where is the balancing point?

It is not pertinent to your salvation.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

It is not pertinent to your salvation.

 You had to get us back on topic!

Edited November 17, 2016 by Guest

[Vort]

Don't let me interrupt the hijack. Everyone was ignoring the obvious comment begging to be made. Maybe I'll change my name to Captain Obvious, or The Low-Hanging Fruit Guy.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Vort said:

Don't let me interrupt the hijack. Everyone was ignoring the obvious comment begging to be made. Maybe I'll change my name to Captain Obvious, or The Low-Hanging Fruit Guy.

Do you remember the last time someone mentioned low hanging fruit?

Well, back on topic: I suppose the benefits of science fiction are not pertinent to our salvation, nor is the knowledge of which B.G. series was better (or if both were just cheesy).  But I think one of the best sci-fi series i've ever read was The Stainless Steel Rat series by Harry Harrison.  Really tough to get nowadays.  Out of print.

But I'll still wonder about a lot of these doctrinal things too.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Guest

[ztodd]

Don't look beyond the mark.  Don't get caught up in any "gospel hobby" to the point that it harms you spiritually.

Obey those pieces of counsel from the Lord's servants, and you'll likely be ok.

Be humble.  Realize that you'll never (in this life) come close close to having the knowledge or wisdom that God has.  About anything.

Always be open to learning something new about the plain and simple truths of the gospel. Faith, repentance, baptism, Holy Ghost, atonement, etc.

Always have a purpose and plan in using the things you learn to change your life. Always seek repentance as you learn.  Always ask, for what purpose am I seeking this knowledge?

Hunger and thirst after righteousness.  Seek to be strictly obedient.

Think of these "riches" in these verses from Jacob 2 as being treasures of knowledge.  This was kind of enlightening for me- I hope it can be for others as well...

 

18 But ^abefore ye seek for ^briches, seek ye for the ^ckingdom of God.

 19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to ^ado good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

My thought is that while it would be cool to know more about Adam and Eve, or to know what is in the sealed portion of the plates....there is SO much that we can know.  Things that ARE essential to us that we leave un-explored.  It's like that story we've probably all heard about the guy who saved and saved to go on a cruise.  At last he was able to go, and he had a great time, but as he was leaving one of the crew mentioned in passing that he had never seen the man in the Dining Room.  The man explained that he had saved for years for this cruise, and didn't have any more money for meals so he ate cheese and crackers in his room.  That's when the crew member informed him that meals were included in the price of the voyage.

I think too many of us got through this life on spiritual cheese and crackers because we don't realize the sumptuous spiritual meals that Heavenly Father wants to share with us.  These things will come only by us asking and searching... my two best suggestions ask the Lord "what lack I yet?"  (Only if you are brave, LOL!) And consider studying spiritual gifts . . . 

[Vort]

1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

It's like that story we've probably all heard about the guy who saved and saved to go on a cruise.  At last he was able to go, and he had a great time, but as he was leaving one of the crew mentioned in passing that he had never seen the man in the Dining Room.  The man explained that he had saved for years for this cruise, and didn't have any more money for meals so he ate cheese and crackers in his room.  That's when the crew member informed him that meals were included in the price of the voyage.

As told by President Uchtdorf in General Conference in April 2011:

Quote

There once was a man whose lifelong dream was to board a cruise ship and sail the Mediterranean Sea. He dreamed of walking the streets of Rome, Athens, and Istanbul. He saved every penny until he had enough for his passage. Since money was tight, he brought an extra suitcase filled with cans of beans, boxes of crackers, and bags of powdered lemonade, and that is what he lived on every day.

He would have loved to take part in the many activities offered on the ship—working out in the gym, playing miniature golf, and swimming in the pool. He envied those who went to movies, shows, and cultural presentations. And, oh, how he yearned for only a taste of the amazing food he saw on the ship—every meal appeared to be a feast! But the man wanted to spend so very little money that he didn’t participate in any of these. He was able to see the cities he had longed to visit, but for the most part of the journey, he stayed in his cabin and ate only his humble food.

On the last day of the cruise, a crew member asked him which of the farewell parties he would be attending. It was then that the man learned that not only the farewell party but almost everything on board the cruise ship—the food, the entertainment, all the activities—had been included in the price of his ticket. Too late the man realized that he had been living far beneath his privileges

 

Edited November 21, 2016 by Vort

[Guest]

2 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

My thought is that while it would be cool to know more about Adam and Eve, or to know what is in the sealed portion of the plates....there is SO much that we can know.  Things that ARE essential to us that we leave un-explored.  It's like that story we've probably all heard about the guy who saved and saved to go on a cruise.  At last he was able to go, and he had a great time, but as he was leaving one of the crew mentioned in passing that he had never seen the man in the Dining Room.  The man explained that he had saved for years for this cruise, and didn't have any more money for meals so he ate cheese and crackers in his room.  That's when the crew member informed him that meals were included in the price of the voyage.

I think too many of us got through this life on spiritual cheese and crackers because we don't realize the sumptuous spiritual meals that Heavenly Father wants to share with us.  These things will come only by us asking and searching... my two best suggestions ask the Lord "what lack I yet?"  (Only if you are brave, LOL!) And consider studying spiritual gifts . . . 

I'm not sure what that has to do with my question... if you were addressing it to me.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I'm not sure what that has to do with my question... if you were addressing it to me.

I was just addressing the topic in general. You asked about balance. I think the balance is found is pursuing the mysteries the Lord wants us to know about (but we have to seek them) rather than the things he has  chosen not to reveal at this time.

[Traveler]

 

I understand that there are priorities – in essence priorities concerning all things.  This is part of what I believe is communicated in Abraham chapter 3.  How we deal with truth – including the truth of all things (including how we prioritize) does indeed have an impact on our eternal salvation.  The inability to deal with truth is, according to my understanding, an issue that sooner or later will separate the Celestial with those not Celestial.

In regard to mysteries – I like @LiterateParakeet as a reference to the mysteries of G-dliness.  

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

Until one understands the small parts of the gospel he cannot understand the mysteries.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I was just addressing the topic in general. You asked about balance. I think the balance is found is pursuing the mysteries the Lord wants us to know about (but we have to seek them) rather than the things he has  chosen not to reveal at this time.

I totally didn't get that from the cruise ship analogy. But ok.

That still doesn't address the question.  Let me try a rephrase:

Of the things that are not already revealed, I break it down into three categories:

1) Some things are just silly to ask.  Someone once mentioned that they heard the Satan was a musician prior to the war in heaven.  I honestly thought that was silly.
2) Some things are curiosities, and I wouldn't blame anyone for trying to ask or figure it out or discuss it.  This is just something to do an "I wonder" and have a gab session with friends... perfect for forum discussions.
3) Some things that are precious enough that they won't be revealed publicly, but they are available through personal revelation.

<4> Then there's the stuff that is already revealed publicly that has nothing to do with this question or thread.

I'm mostly trying to discern the difference between 1 & 2.  I figure, #3 is something that we probably won't be talking about much. And I don't think we're ever going to get personal revelation on 1 or 2.  So, we're left just talking about them on forums such as this.

None of this means that we ignore or neglect #4.  It's just that we're allowed to be curious about some things and discuss things that, yes, probably don't matter in the end.  But I'm just one of those guys that can't help but collect meaningless bits of trivia.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Geez Carb, I didn't know this was a "pass/fail" test.  LOL.  

Look, what I am saying is IMO, there are more important questions than those.  They're the questions that people tend to over look because the other questions (the ones you speak of) are more exciting (or appear to be).  But that's where they're wrong.  They're robbing themselves, living on crackers when they could have a sumptuous feast.   That's my point.  

But that's not what you are looking for, I get it.  No hard feelings. 

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Geez Carb, I didn't know this was a "pass/fail" test.  LOL.  

Look, what I am saying is IMO, there are more important questions than those.  They're the questions that people tend to over look because the other questions (the ones you speak of) are more exciting (or appear to be).  But that's where they're wrong.  They're robbing themselves, living on crackers when they could have a sumptuous feast.   That's my point.  

But that's not what you are looking for, I get it.  No hard feelings. 

I wasn't trying to insult you.  Sorry if it seemed that way.

Putting it those terms, I guess I'm saying that I don't "limit" myself to the crackers.  I consider the crackers part of the overall diet which is part of the open buffet.  I'll get plenty of the main dish and "feasting" items.  I'll also pick up the crackers from the buffet table near the soup bowl and place some sandwhich meat and cheese on them.  Most people will just pass them over, and I wonder why.  Crackers are good too.

My wife makes fun of my diet sometimes.  We can eat almost anything we want (except for lobster -- pretty expensive).  But some days I just want something simple: mac n cheese, ramen, kim chee and rice...

Many wonder why I'm not as wide as I am tall.  And carrying over that metaphor, I can feast on the good stuff of the gospel and still "wonder" about a lot of seemingly less important things... like going onto internet forums and discussing things in circles.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Guest

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

No worries. I didn't feel insulted, more like hemmed in (which seemed odd after the Cylon discussion, LOL)

I didn't mean to insult you either.  The crackers analogy wasn't directed at you personally.  As you said, this topic comes up a lot.  I have found a great deal of joy and wonder from pursuing the questions that don't come up a lot, and that was what came to my mind.  Just sharing my musings.   

I prefer simple foods too.  My husband also teases me because my tastes are rather child-like.  

Edited November 21, 2016 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

 more like hemmed in (which seemed odd after the Cylon discussion

You too will be assimilated...

Wait, mixing my metaphors...or... references...

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Until one understands the small parts of the gospel he cannot understand the mysteries.

I think it depends on how you define mysteries.  English is funny that way...so often we use words assuming everyone is in agreement as to what they mean, but in fact they can be talking about very different things.  I find this especially true with words like forgiveness, feminism and of course, mysteries of God.  

When I think of mysteries, I think of the "hidden treasures".  An example would be when I asked the Lord "what lack I yet?"  He made it clear that he wanted me to study the Atonement.  I thought that was odd, at the time I was a young mom, a return missionary, I had listened to many lessons about the Atonement and taught people about it too.  But I decided to try (what else could I do?)  I searched and searched and didn't feel that I had discovered anything new.  So I went back to my knees and asked, "Heavenly Father, I don't get it.  What was it thou wanted me to understand about the Atonement?"  That is when I really learned about the Atonement.  It was amazing.  That was a hidden treasure.  A mystery---simply because most people don't see it.  Like me, they think they already know all about "that".  "That" could be whatever thing the Lord wants to tell us more about if we would simply ask Him.  I say simply, but it's not really simple, we have to do our part, and sometimes we really have to stretch, but it's always worth it.  And the first step--asking--IS simple. 

Edited November 21, 2016 by LiterateParakeet

[Vort]

1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I think it depends on how you define mysteries.

McConkie defined a "mystery" as something that cannot be understood by the carnal mind. I think that's as good a definition as I have ever heard.

[Rob Osborn]

6 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I think it depends on how you define mysteries.  English is funny that way...so often we use words assuming everyone is in agreement as to what they mean, but in fact they can be talking about very different things.  I find this especially true with words like forgiveness, feminism and of course, mysteries of God.  

When I think of mysteries, I think of the "hidden treasures".  An example would be when I asked the Lord "what lack I yet?"  He made it clear that he wanted me to study the Atonement.  I thought that was odd, at the time I was a young mom, a return missionary, I had listened to many lessons about the Atonement and taught people about it too.  But I decided to try (what else could I do?)  I searched and searched and didn't feel that I had discovered anything new.  So I went back to my knees and asked, "Heavenly Father, I don't get it.  What was it thou wanted me to understand about the Atonement?"  That is when I really learned about the Atonement.  It was amazing.  That was a hidden treasure.  A mystery---simply because most people don't see it.  Like me, they think they already know all about "that".  "That" could be whatever thing the Lord wants to tell us more about if we would simply ask Him.  I say simply, but it's not really simple, we have to do our part, and sometimes we really have to stretch, but it's always worth it.  And the first step--asking--IS simple. 

True. Ironically, the mysteries of the gospel and of God are all principled or known by understanding the very small plain and simple things. Even something as simple as the phrase "he that overcometh" from the scriptures is a mystery but once understood is at its simplest of understanding. But, by understanding its depth, it reveals a whole new light on the gospel and the plan of salvation. Almost every repeated word and phrase in scripture is like that- you have your basic seminary answer that everyone has memorised, then you have the deeper understanding that unveils the mystery and a completely new understanding.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

9 hours ago, Vort said:

McConkie defined a "mystery" as something that cannot be understood by the carnal mind. I think that's as good a definition as I have ever heard.

That's perfect. 

[Traveler]

 

In the discussion of “necessary for salvation” I think I am observing what may be an odd twist to the conversation.  That is that it seems to me that most often this phrase is used by those that in general think of salvation as some kind of destination rather than a method or way as most often is described in scripture.

For some reason – we human love to think in the finite rather than the infinite.  We like to think of the “True Church” in terms of institutions, doctrines and organizations.  In particular we like to think of these things in terms of self and individuals and how as an individual we fit into the scheme of things.  Thus salvation becomes OUR salvation – we think in terms of MY glory, My rewards, My getting to heaven.  It all becomes about me and I.  So necessary for salvation becomes a view point of what I must do it becomes a me and I thing.

Perhaps such thinking is wrong and incomplete.  In the parable of the Good Samaritan – The Samaritan was not inclusive in the concept of institution, doctrine and organization that was the very foundation of the Jewish religious society.  The Good Samaritan was not a typical Jew and certainly not a typical Samaritan.  He was the very exception of such thinking – certainly he was not wondering or even questioning if helping the traveler in need was necessary for salvation.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Traveler said:

In the discussion of “necessary for salvation”

Not that I'm accusing you of a threadjack, but the comment was "pertinent to", not "necessary for".