Some Ponderings

[Traveler]

On ‎12‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 8:08 AM, An Investigator said:

Just wanting to hear some opinions on some things I have been pondering of late.   

What do people think constitutes a rejection of the Gospel?  I personally believe that in order to reject something one would have to have a very good grasp of it. So rejecting the Missionaries or even possibly baptism would not constitute a rejection of the Gospel? That these people will still get a second chance in Spirit prison?

 

I believe that I have been called into the Church for a purpose,  what about people of other faiths,  perhaps they are called into their faiths to set them on the right path as they are not completely ready for the whole truth?  Do you think that most devout people of other faiths will go to the celestial Kingdom and accept the Gospel in Spirit prison? 

There are some Lds theologians who think that the three degrees of Glory are three steps and even when we are placed in a realm we can still progress till eventually everyone receives exaltation.   What is everyones opinion on that? 

I believe it is impossible to reject the gospel while in our current fallen state.  My basis for this understanding is that whatever some may think is rejection of the gospel by whatever sin is still something that can be repented of and full pardon granted as per the law and principles of the atonement.  How far into the spirit life of our next state is an item for speculation about various revelations but for sure the possibility of repentance and establishment of rejection does not extend beyond what we call “The Final Judgment”.

 

The Traveler

 

[askandanswer]

On 12/22/2016 at 6:10 AM, Carborendum said:

I hope this series of highlights are self-explanatory.  But I just like putting things like this together.  So, I guess I will.

An idea can be dangerous -- just as dangerous as a snake pit.  There is nothing wrong with labeling a snake pit as dangerous.  And there is much benefit to labeling it as such. 

Listening to differences of opinion for the sake of academic knowledge and discussion is one thing.  To delve into a false doctrine with hope because of our good, but very mortal, motivations is quite another.  And as Zil expressed, some of these places are not about differences of opinion.  They know what they're doing.  And they are trying to deceive.

Part of listening to the Spirit is having the willingness to give up what we want in favor of what God wants.  It means giving up our own expectations and desires and receive the will of the Lord into our own hearts.  When we do that, we are a fertile ground for the Spirit to plant seeds in our souls.  So, whenever looking at a new doctrine, always run it through this filter.

Evil always looks enticing. And, most of the time, harmless. Its been designed that way

[askandanswer]

On 12/22/2016 at 2:38 AM, zil said:

Replying to this one separate.  Will reply to the others too.

While there is no place in scripture that explicitly says, "There is no progression between kingdoms", there are scriptures about the fall, the resurrection, judgement, glory, and exaltation which, IMO, leave no way to believe that we can progress between kingdoms.  I was studying about resurrection and immortality (extensively, for a long time, to answer another question), and reached this conclusion shortly before discovering that "Seven Deadly Heresies" talk, which lists this as one of the heresies.

I believe, based on my studies, that resurrection is not just the granting of immortality (except for the "sons of perdition"), but that it is a mixture of receiving immortality and the glory which corresponds to the law you have chosen to live (see D&C 88:29-32) - in fact, I think it is that glory which makes you immortal (and immortally of that glory, and you cannot alter that which is perfected within its sphere, thus, you cannot give up one immortality (die) to obtain another, even if it's better - if you could, you would not actually be immortal).

These are just some "off the top of my head" thoughts, that I haven't really thought through yet. I'm just thinking through some of the implications if what Elder McConkie taught is true.

1. It has sometimes been taught that everything and everybody is either regressing or progressing - there is no standing still. If this concept is true, and if it is applied to kingdoms, then it would follow that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are also regressing or progressing. Given that these places will be filled with people who were basically good, and that Satan is unlikely to have any influence in either of those places, then progression, rather than regression seems to be the more likely possibility. So if the kingdoms as a whole are progression, then perhaps it is only a matter of time before they reach the point where the celestial kingdom used to be. 

2. If the celestial kingdom is a place of eternal progression, and if the other kingdoms are not, then the "gap" or difference (whatever that gap might be) between the kingdoms will be ever increasing, meaning that the gap, or the difference, between God and where most of His children are, will be ever increasing. 

[zil]

3 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

These are just some "off the top of my head" thoughts, that I haven't really thought through yet. I'm just thinking through some of the implications if what Elder McConkie taught is true.

1. It has sometimes been taught that everything and everybody is either regressing or progressing - there is no standing still. If this concept is true, and if it is applied to kingdoms, then it would follow that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are also regressing or progressing. Given that these places will be filled with people who were basically good, and that Satan is unlikely to have any influence in either of those places, then progression, rather than regression seems to be the more likely possibility. So if the kingdoms as a whole are progression, then perhaps it is only a matter of time before they reach the point where the celestial kingdom used to be. 

2. If the celestial kingdom is a place of eternal progression, and if the other kingdoms are not, then the "gap" or difference (whatever that gap might be) between the kingdoms will be ever increasing, meaning that the gap, or the difference, between God and where most of His children are, will be ever increasing. 

I've only ever heard the "either regressing or progressing" in relation to mortals.  Though everything hinges on what one believes those words mean.

Read the full post I linked to.  I believe Elder McConkie, Elder Maxwell, and Joseph Smith (or whoever wrote Lectures on Faith).  Either God is omniscient (by definition, there is nothing more for him to learn or discover) or we are all taking a HUGE risk that whatever God doesn't already know isn't going to sink Him and us with Him.  But if God knows all (and I'm confident He does), the only "progression" left is to multiply / replicate (create worlds and help those who are willing to reach perfection*).  Lots of people can't seem to stand this idea.  They seem to think omniscience is not so omni and repetition sounds extremely boring.  I think their logic is flawed and their thinking short-sighted.  I recommend they read Nibley's Approaching Zion.

* Or, for those in lower kingdoms, to serve in their spheres repeatedly, forever.  (Don't like the sound of that? Aim higher.)

I am perfectly willing to be wrong.  I am not willing to disregard the prophets nor ignore the soundness of their logic (which fits perfectly with all that has been revealed to mankind), nor ignore the flaws in other interpretations (which don't fit perfectly into all that has been revealed to mankind).

[Rob Osborn]

Personally, I believe BRM's heresy #5 doctrine is flawed and he is perhaps wrong. Much of his opinions came to make up and add definition to church doctrine in our church that we still adhere to today. #5 heresy actually contradicts the endowment.

[james12]

On 12/21/2016 at 10:57 AM, Vort said:

This is false doctrine, period. I do not know whether or not it is true -- I strongly suspect it is not -- but it most certainly is not the teachings of the Church. I would urge you or anyone else to reject this doctrine as a dangerous, Mormon-oriented version of "Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God."

 

On 12/22/2016 at 3:35 PM, Anddenex said:

There are some Lds theologians who think that the three degrees of Glory are three steps and even when we are placed in a realm we can still progress till eventually everyone receives exaltation.   What is everyones opinion on that? 

This is false doctrine. If not, this would have to account the concept of "this time is a time to prepare to meet God," and other scriptures that specify the need to not delay repentance during our days of probation and then judgement comes -- judgement which is eternal. This also, then gives the adversary to lay thoughts in people's minds to delay their repentance because they can repent in the afterlife (even if it is a long time until you become like God, but remember you live forever, so it really doesn't matter).

Elder Bruce R. McConkie, talks about some heresies of the gospel and these are his words, "Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.

This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, “God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?” It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.

The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies—some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared."

As to my current knowledge and level of understanding of gospel principles, Elder McConkie is correct.

 

On 12/24/2016 at 3:03 PM, zil said:

I've only ever heard the "either regressing or progressing" in relation to mortals.  Though everything hinges on what one believes those words mean.

Read the full post I linked to.  I believe Elder McConkie, Elder Maxwell, and Joseph Smith (or whoever wrote Lectures on Faith).  Either God is omniscient (by definition, there is nothing more for him to learn or discover) or we are all taking a HUGE risk that whatever God doesn't already know isn't going to sink Him and us with Him.  But if God knows all (and I'm confident He does), the only "progression" left is to multiply / replicate (create worlds and help those who are willing to reach perfection*).  Lots of people can't seem to stand this idea.  They seem to think omniscience is not so omni and repetition sounds extremely boring.  I think their logic is flawed and their thinking short-sighted.  I recommend they read Nibley's Approaching Zion.

* Or, for those in lower kingdoms, to serve in their spheres repeatedly, forever.  (Don't like the sound of that? Aim higher.)

I am perfectly willing to be wrong.  I am not willing to disregard the prophets nor ignore the soundness of their logic (which fits perfectly with all that has been revealed to mankind), nor ignore the flaws in other interpretations (which don't fit perfectly into all that has been revealed to mankind).

The church has never declared a definitive position on the issue of progression between kingdoms, despite Bruce R. McConkie's Seven Heresies talk. Certainly other prophets and apostles have thought it a possibility.

“The brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.” (Secretary of the First Presidency in a 1952 letter; and again in 1965, cited in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Vol. XV, No. 1, Spring 1982, p.181-183)

“None would inherit this earth when it became celestial and translated into the presence of God but those who would be crowned as Gods — all others would have to inherit another kingdom — they would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom but it would be a slow process [progress?].” (Brigham Young, in Wilford Woodruff Journal, 5 Aug 1855)

“I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come.” (J. Reuben Clark, Church News, 23 April 1960, p. 3)

"It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation, by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement within each of the three specified kingdoms will be provided for; though as to possible progress from one kingdom to another the scriptures make no positive affirmation. Eternal advancement along different lines is conceivable. We may conclude that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase." (James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, (1990), p.371)

If I believe we are able to progress between kingdoms over eternities that does not mean that I stop trying to do my best while here in this life. As always, this life is the time to work out our salvation, that does not change. While in this state of probation we have been given a special opportunity, we must avail ourselves of it while here. 

Here then are questions for those who say that progression after final judgement is not possible:

1. How does this short life span offer sufficient time for a person to determine their fate forever more?
2. How is it just for God to only allow us this earth life to define the rest of our progression?

Note: It is completely off base to say "We don't know" or "God will work it out" and then in the same breath criticize those who believe that there is further progression. If you do not know then I suggest you be open to others opinions on the matter. 

[zil]

12 minutes ago, james12 said:

Here then are questions for those who say that progression after final judgement is not possible:

1. How does this short life span offer sufficient time for a person to determine their fate forever more?
2. How is it just for God to only allow us this earth life to define the rest of our progression?

Note: It is completely off base to say "We don't know" or "God will work it out" and then in the same breath criticize those who believe that there is further progression. If you do not know then I suggest you be open to others opinions on the matter. 

First, I wish to reiterate what was in that post I linked to (which was my own post): I studied scripture relating to immortality, exaltation, and resurrection.  I did this over an extended period, and what I found leads me to believe, based on scripture, that there is no inter-kingdom movement after resurrection*.  I recommend anyone and everyone concerned on this matter study the scriptures for themselves.

1. Who ever said it was 100% based on this short life span?  I don't see anyone saying that.  Our progress began in eternity past and will continue after this life, in the world of spirits, right up until the resurrection.  Those who aren't ready for such permanence will be resurrected last (after the millennium) - a mercy indeed.

2. See #1.

Finally, somewhere, I've already said that I believe God isn't the only one who is the same yesterday, today, and forever.  I believe all of us are.  Those who will one day inherit all the Father has were already headed there literally an eternity ago, and will continue on that path for eternity to come.  Those for who the Telestial is the bomb have been headed there for eternity.  The same for Terrestrial beings.  Thus, it is not only this mortality which determines the glory by which we are quickened - we have been headed for our individual ends for all eternity.  It won't matter at death, or even the resurrection who far along that path I am.  It will matter that I was, am, and always will be on that path.  (In other words, I don't believe that at resurrection we will be like the Father or our Savior in every aspect.  I believe we will continue to learn line upon line until we have reached fullness - for those quickened by the Celestial glory.  For those quickened by other glories, they will progress to the measure of that glory which they choose.  This, I believe, is the eternal difference.  Those in the Telestial will say, "good enough" before those in the Terrestrial, and those in the Terrestrial will say, "good enough" at some point, while those in the Celestial will not say, "good enough" - ever.)

Let's look at it from another angle:

A) Teach that there is no progress between kingdoms.  Teach that it's the path we're on, not how far along we are, that matters.  Lift and encourage others to reach for the Celestial Glory.  This teaching does no harm, and does much good.

B) Teach that there is progress between kingdoms.  The logical conclusion of that teaching is that we've got eternity to get it right, it can always be done later.  Even if you are not the sort of person who will slack off at this doctrine, others might be.  And while there will be many who won't slack at all, and more who will slack regardless, there may be some (and even 1 is enough) who are on the edge, and who, based on which of these two ideas is taught convincingly to them, will choose either to keep trying or to slack off.

I do not want to be held accountable for B.

*As I have said elsewhere, I'm OK to be wrong, but given that I came to my conclusion through the study of scriptures, and the logic of (A) and (B) above, I will not teach that (B) is a possibility until / unless it is revealed to be certain.  And it's entirely possible that the scriptures are written in such a way, and further revelation withheld, for the express purpose of preventing people from making up more excuses to slack - but that's not my impression, so I'm sticking with (A).

[Rob Osborn]

12 minutes ago, zil said:

First, I wish to reiterate what was in that post I linked to (which was my own post): I studied scripture relating to immortality, exaltation, and resurrection.  I did this over an extended period, and what I found leads me to believe, based on scripture, that there is no inter-kingdom movement after resurrection*.  I recommend anyone and everyone concerned on this matter study the scriptures for themselves.

1. Who ever said it was 100% based on this short life span?  I don't see anyone saying that.  Our progress began in eternity past and will continue after this life, in the world of spirits, right up until the resurrection.  Those who aren't ready for such permanence will be resurrected last (after the millennium) - a mercy indeed.

2. See #1.

Finally, somewhere, I've already said that I believe God isn't the only one who is the same yesterday, today, and forever.  I believe all of us are.  Those who will one day inherit all the Father has were already headed there literally an eternity ago, and will continue on that path for eternity to come.  Those for who the Telestial is the bomb have been headed there for eternity.  The same for Terrestrial beings.  Thus, it is not only this mortality which determines the glory by which we are quickened - we have been headed for our individual ends for all eternity.  It won't matter at death, or even the resurrection who far along that path I am.  It will matter that I was, am, and always will be on that path.  (In other words, I don't believe that at resurrection we will be like the Father or our Savior in every aspect.  I believe we will continue to learn line upon line until we have reached fullness - for those quickened by the Celestial glory.  For those quickened by other glories, they will progress to the measure of that glory which they choose.  This, I believe, is the eternal difference.  Those in the Telestial will say, "good enough" before those in the Terrestrial, and those in the Terrestrial will say, "good enough" at some point, while those in the Celestial will not say, "good enough" - ever.)

Let's look at it from another angle:

A) Teach that there is no progress between kingdoms.  Teach that it's the path we're on, not how far along we are, that matters.  Lift and encourage others to reach for the Celestial Glory.  This teaching does no harm, and does much good.

B) Teach that there is progress between kingdoms.  The logical conclusion of that teaching is that we've got eternity to get it right, it can always be done later.  Even if you are not the sort of person who will slack off at this doctrine, others might be.  And while there will be many who won't slack at all, and more who will slack regardless, there may be some (and even 1 is enough) who are on the edge, and who, based on which of these two ideas is taught convincingly to them, will choose either to keep trying or to slack off.

I do not want to be held accountable for B.

*As I have said elsewhere, I'm OK to be wrong, but given that I came to my conclusion through the study of scriptures, and the logic of (A) and (B) above, I will not teach that (B) is a possibility until / unless it is revealed to be certain.  And it's entirely possible that the scriptures are written in such a way, and further revelation withheld, for the express purpose of preventing people from making up more excuses to slack - but that's not my impression, so I'm sticking with (A).

This is a common belief in the church and to me it shows just exactly how flawed our doctrine has become. I find it interesting that our church has pretty much looked the other way when it comes to what the Book of Mormon actually teaches about the plan of salvation.

[james12]

6 minutes ago, zil said:

First, I wish to reiterate what was in that post I linked to (which was my own post): I studied scripture relating to immortality, exaltation, and resurrection.  I did this over an extended period, and what I found leads me to believe, based on scripture, that there is no inter-kingdom movement after resurrection*.  I recommend anyone and everyone concerned on this matter study the scriptures for themselves.

1. Who ever said it was 100% based on this short life span?  I don't see anyone saying that.  Our progress began in eternity past and will continue after this life, in the world of spirits, right up until the resurrection.  Those who aren't ready for such permanence will be resurrected last (after the millennium) - a mercy indeed.

2. See #1.

I likewise over an extended period of time studied scripture on the matter in the light of the spirit and what I have found leads me to believe that there is progression throughout eternity.

You have not answered the question, just pushed our very limited time frame to include the spirit world. So you would say that progression on earth and the spirit world is sufficient to determine our endless destiny? 

6 minutes ago, zil said:

Finally, somewhere, I've already said that I believe God isn't the only one who is the same yesterday, today, and forever.  I believe all of us are.  Those who will one day inherit all the Father has were already headed there literally an eternity ago, and will continue on that path for eternity to come.  Those for who the Telestial is the bomb have been headed there for eternity.  The same for Terrestrial beings.  Thus, it is not only this mortality which determines the glory by which we are quickened - we have been headed for our individual ends for all eternity.  It won't matter at death, or even the resurrection who far along that path I am.  It will matter that I was, am, and always will be on that path.  (In other words, I don't believe that at resurrection we will be like the Father or our Savior in every aspect.  I believe we will continue to learn line upon line until we have reached fullness - for those quickened by the Celestial glory.  For those quickened by other glories, they will progress to the measure of that glory which they choose.  This, I believe, is the eternal difference.  Those in the Telestial will say, "good enough" before those in the Terrestrial, and those in the Terrestrial will say, "good enough" at some point, while those in the Celestial will not say, "good enough" - ever.)

This is a strange teaching. In essence before this life some of us were telestial and so we will continue on the same course (telestial) after this life. From my perspective this line of thinking not only cuts off our opportunity to progress in the future but would lead us to think that we had limited opportunity in the past. 

6 minutes ago, zil said:

Let's look at it from another angle:

A) Teach that there is no progress between kingdoms.  Teach that it's the path we're on, not how far along we are, that matters.  Lift and encourage others to reach for the Celestial Glory.  This teaching does no harm, and does much good.

B) Teach that there is progress between kingdoms.  The logical conclusion of that teaching is that we've got eternity to get it right, it can always be done later.  Even if you are not the sort of person who will slack off at this doctrine, others might be.  And while there will be many who won't slack at all, and more who will slack regardless, there may be some (and even 1 is enough) who are on the edge, and who, based on which of these two ideas is taught convincingly to them, will choose either to keep trying or to slack off.

I do not want to be held accountable for B.

*As I have said elsewhere, I'm OK to be wrong, but given that I came to my conclusion through the study of scriptures, and the logic of (A) and (B) above, I will not teach that (B) is a possibility until / unless it is revealed to be certain.  And it's entirely possible that the scriptures are written in such a way, and further revelation withheld, for the express purpose of preventing people from making up more excuses to slack - but that's not my impression, so I'm sticking with (A).

Actually "A" does do harm. It leads a person to believe that either they themselves, or their father, mother, brother, sister etc. will be forever cut off from full happiness despite anything they (or anyone else) can do in a future state. They are forever dammed. It also rejects this teaching:

Quote

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught a more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God” (Orson F. Whitney, in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, 110).

 

[zil]

4 minutes ago, james12 said:

I likewise over an extended period of time studied scripture on the matter in the light of the spirit and what I have found leads me to believe that there is progression throughout eternity.

And maybe what you have learned is what you need, and what I have learned is what I need, and perhaps that's more important than the certainty of one way or the other.  Perhaps the truth is something different and each of our understandings is limited by our individual capacity and history.  Perhaps one of us is wrong and the other right.  Perhaps we don't disagree so much as it appears and we're using different words to describe the same end.

4 minutes ago, james12 said:

You have not answered the question, just pushed our very limited time frame to include the spirit world. So you would say that progression on earth and the spirit world is sufficient to determine our endless destiny? 

Unless you define "spirit world" as including our eternity past (our entire existence as intelligences and then as spirit children of God before mortality - which I do not consider "spirit world"), you're leaving out eternity past - a very, very long (as in "infinite") length of time.  And yes, I think eternity is long enough.

11 minutes ago, james12 said:

This is a strange teaching. In essence before this life some of us were telestial and so we will continue on the same course (telestial) after this life. From my perspective this line of thinking not only cuts off our opportunity to progress in the future but would lead us to think that we had limited opportunity in the past. 

As I said, it's strictly my belief. I'm not going to call it truth, but it fits logically within the truth as I understand it.  And it's a difficult idea to explain and difficult for some people to understand (others understand it perfectly and have agreed that it makes sense).  It would be easier if we were in the same location and I could draw pictures (if you want me to draw and post pictures and a more detailed explanation, I can, but we should probably sidebar that).

I don't believe anyone was ever limited in opportunity or capacity as far as their eternal progression goes.  I believe we are all given everything we need in order to reach the Celestial kingdom if we so choose.  I do believe that some people choose to continually work hard, learn more, repent, try again, never give up (these people are (or will be, if you prefer) Celestial).  I also believe there are other people who think differently, they think, "good enough", "meh", "it wasn't my fault", "gimme", "I deserve better", and other such things.  Of course, we all go through stages and will think the lesser things in some areas at some times, but the difference between a Celestial person and Terrestrial or Telestial person is whether they give up and stay at "good enough" permanently, or whether they refuse to (or find themselves unable to) give up.

And I think that personality trait has existed in each of us from eternity.  Again, it's just my personal perception.  I could be all wrong, but understanding that I think this is necessary to understanding why I think our progress toward these kingdoms did not start with mortality (nor even with our spiritual birth) - I think our progress has been going on for literally eternity - our entire existence.

6 minutes ago, james12 said:

Actually "A" does do harm. It leads a person to believe that either they themselves, or their father, mother, brother, sister etc. will be forever cut off from full happiness despite anything they (or anyone else) can do in a future state. They are forever dammed.

Why would it lead anyone to believe that?  Did you miss the part where I said it doesn't matter how far along the path you are, only that you are on the path and moving forward?

As for the quote at the end of your post - the only difference I can see between how you read it and how I read it is whether the salvation of those referenced will come before or after the resurrection.  I believe it will come before / at, not after.  You seem to think it can't happen until after - that they must go to a lower kingdom first - I don't.

I begin to think that perhaps you think of "Celestial", "Terrestrial", and "Telestial" as end results or final states of being.  I think of them as lifestyles.  Sure, someone hasn't reached the end result of the lifestyle yet, but they can be ever moving toward those ends now (and moving toward the end is living the lifestyle).  And I suspect that some, at the resurrection, will be quickened by a glory the fullness of which they are not yet able to understand or use, and that they will spend ages growing into the fullness of that glory - much like the Priesthood.  Perhaps that's another difference.  Perhaps you think that at the resurrection one will / must receive the fullness of the glory by which they are quickened and be capable of using it all - in other words, that those quickened by the Celestial glory must, at the resurrection, be omniscient and omnipotent.  I suspect that most of us won't be, but that we'll grow into it.

(I just ran all this by a co-worker, to test my ability to explain, and will post again something from D&C as soon as I can type it up.)

[zil]

D&C 76:96-98

Quote

96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one.

 97 And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one.

 98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

It appears to me, from these verses, that each kingdom has a separate glory (not a separate amount of the same glory, but that the glory itself is different from the others).

D&C 88:28-32

Quote

 28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

 29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

 30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

 31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

 32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

It appears to me from these verses that we will be made immortal (quickened) by the glory itself (whatever that is).  Thus, those who are of the Celestial kingdom will be made immortal by a portion¹ of its glory.

¹ (isn't that interesting, not all of it, but some of it).

If a person is immortal, they cannot die.  If the glory is that which makes them immortal, how can they give up one glory (die) in order to receive another?  If one can die, they were not immortal.  Can they receive a higher glory while being kept immortal by a lower glory and then shed the thing wherewith they were made alive in the first place?

D&C 132:17

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 17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

Perhaps "all eternity" and "forever and ever" don't really mean what we think they mean, but when combined with all else, I think they do.

[Anddenex]

2 hours ago, james12 said:

If I believe we are able to progress between kingdoms over eternities that does not mean that I stop trying to do my best while here in this life. As always, this life is the time to work out our salvation, that does not change. While in this state of probation we have been given a special opportunity, we must avail ourselves of it while here. 

Here then are questions for those who say that progression after final judgement is not possible:

1. How does this short life span offer sufficient time for a person to determine their fate forever more?
2. How is it just for God to only allow us this earth life to define the rest of our progression?

Note: It is completely off base to say "We don't know" or "God will work it out" and then in the same breath criticize those who believe that there is further progression. If you do not know then I suggest you be open to others opinions on the matter. 

As always, this life is the time to work out our salvation, that does not change. While in this state of probation we have been given a special opportunity, we must avail ourselves of it while here.

This would be false. If a person is able to work out their salvation beyond death and into the resurrection, then mortal life is not a place to work out our salvation. The notion within scripture of statements specifying "This is the time to prepare to meet God," and other statement alike, are devalued because this no longer becomes the time to prepare to meet God. We can choose to become "Lukewarm" and still be OK in the eternities; although the scriptures specify he will spew us out. We can waste away the days of our probation (and in essence these no longer become days of probation if we can progress eternally, as then the resurrection is still a state of our probation), which God commanded that we don't because their comes the day of endless punishment according to a law which is affixed.

1. How does this short life span offer sufficient time for a person to determine their fate forever more?

I find this question to be relatively simple. This isn't the beginning of our learning. We were with God previously. We enjoyed his presence. We enjoyed his presence sufficient enough that Satan could loose his option to obtain a body and further progress. We are informed in scripture, "And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever." (2 Nephi 2:25, emphasis added)

We all have been given the light of Christ that we may know good from evil. We have been given the ability to "remember" our past through the light of Christ and through companionship of the Holy Ghost.

2. How is it just for God to only allow us this earth life to define the rest of our progression?

He doesn't. We have evidence of scripture that speaks to those without law who are able to receive eternal life through our great Mediator. If they would have accepted the gospel in this life. God's foreknowledge allows him to be the perfect judge. We do not know how many years (if we were to compare a year to earth to the eternity) we were with our Father in heaven before the great assembly where the plan was given and our Savior appointed (although God knew long before that).

The rhetorical question then would be in light of all scripture specifying this is the time to prepare to meet God, how is it not just that people are assigned to a state they chose to be?

I find it intriguing in all my debates with Atheists that members of the Church will use similar arguments to show God is not just if there is no eternal progression after life, or that it would be more just if God allowed for eternal progression (same argument, different presentation). In my debates with Atheists one of their prominent items of debate is eternal damnation. How could God be a just God if people are unable to progress out of hell?

Even Lehi feared greatly for the souls of Laman and Lemuel and their children as he was given a vision of their outcome, their choices, which would cast them out of the presence of God, "he feared lest they should be cast off from the presence of the Lord."

Here are scriptures which one with the idea of "eternal progression" between kingdoms will have to seek to explain:

1) Mosiah 16:11, "If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation" (Endless, what does endless mean?)

2) Helaman 12:26, "Yea, who shall be consigned to a state of endless misery, fulfilling the words which say: They that have done good shall have everlasting life; and they that have done evil shall have everlasting damnation. And thus it is. Amen."

3) Mosiah 2: 33, "For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge." (everlasting punishment)

4) Alma 9:28, "if they have been righteous they shall reap the salvation of their souls, according to the power and deliverance of Jesus Christ; and if they have been evil they shall reap the damnation of their souls, according to the power and captivation of the devil."

5) Mosiah 3:25, "And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls." (no more return)

If you believe in eternal progression, I am fine with this, then the question in return is how does one justify the concept in light of all scriptures/doctrine specifying there is no return, endless punishment, endless misery for those who have listed to obey not God and his spirit.

Note: It is completely off base to say "We don't know" or "God will work it out" and then in the same breath criticize those who believe that there is further progression. If you do not know then I suggest you be open to others opinions on the matter. 

Personal opinions can be rejected any time, without being off base in the same breath saying "We don't know" or "God will work it out". There are a lot of "opinions" in the world that I can close myself to while still recognizing God will work it out. It is not off base in the least. We all choose to be open or closed as determined by the argument given and support -- even yourself.

[Anddenex]

2 hours ago, james12 said:

 It also rejects this teaching:

No, it doesn't reject Joseph Smith's teaching, the notion rejects your current understanding of it. Joseph Fielding Smith in his Doctrine of Salvation provides an alternative thought, interpretation, of this concept.

[Vort]

3 hours ago, james12 said:

It is completely off base to say "We don't know" or "God will work it out" and then in the same breath criticize those who believe that there is further progression.

Criticize their belief? I agree. Criticize their teaching? I disagree. The teaching of "progression between kingdoms" is a false doctrine, even if it turns out to be a true principle (which I don't believe). It is not a doctrine of the Church, and it definitely leads many in the wrong direction. If it is true, it is a truth that God has kept hidden and unrevealed publicly, and those who receive this truth are covenant-bound to keep their mouths shut about it. As for those who just speculate about it, they should make very clear they are not preaching any Church doctrine.

[james12]

40 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

As always, this life is the time to work out our salvation, that does not change. While in this state of probation we have been given a special opportunity, we must avail ourselves of it while here.

This would be false. If a person is able to work out their salvation beyond death and into the resurrection, then mortal life is not a place to work out our salvation. The notion within scripture of statements specifying "This is the time to prepare to meet God," and other statement alike, are devalued because this no longer becomes the time to prepare to meet God. We can choose to become "Lukewarm" and still be OK in the eternities; although the scriptures specify he will spew us out. We can waste away the days of our probation (and in essence these no longer become days of probation if we can progress eternally, as then the resurrection is still a state of our probation), which God commanded that we don't because their comes the day of endless punishment according to a law which is affixed.

Hi Anddenex, Thanks for taking up this discussion it is an important and interesting one. 

Quote

1. How does this short life span offer sufficient time for a person to determine their fate forever more?

I find this question to be relatively simple. This isn't the beginning of our learning. We were with God previously. We enjoyed his presence. We enjoyed his presence sufficient enough that Satan could loose his option to obtain a body and further progress. We are informed in scripture, "And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever." (2 Nephi 2:25, emphasis added)

We all have been given the light of Christ that we may know good from evil. We have been given the ability to "remember" our past through the light of Christ and through companionship of the Holy Ghost.

So in your interpretation we could progress in the eternities before this life, perhaps eons and eons back but at the end of this life are cut off from further progression? Also in your interpretation this life is sufficient because of what we have been given before it? This does not "taste" good to me. Given that we had such a long time before to progress why must a person be stopped now?

I also question this idea of God's foreknowledge and his judgement of us. If he knew what we were to choose and yet still required us to pass through this earth life, so that we could experience what we need to, why do we think that he can judge us after this life such that we don't need to experience the rest of it?  

Quote

2. How is it just for God to only allow us this earth life to define the rest of our progression?

He doesn't. We have evidence of scripture that speaks to those without law who are able to receive eternal life through our great Mediator. If they would have accepted the gospel in this life. God's foreknowledge allows him to be the perfect judge. We do not know how many years (if we were to compare a year to earth to the eternity) we were with our Father in heaven before the great assembly where the plan was given and our Savior appointed (although God knew long before that).

The rhetorical question then would be in light of all scripture specifying this is the time to prepare to meet God, how is it not just that people are assigned to a state they chose to be?

I find it intriguing in all my debates with Atheists that members of the Church will use similar arguments to show God is not just if there is no eternal progression after life, or that it would be more just if God allowed for eternal progression (same argument, different presentation). In my debates with Atheists one of their prominent items of debate is eternal damnation. How could God be a just God if people are unable to progress out of hell?

Even Lehi feared greatly for the souls of Laman and Lemuel and their children as he was given a vision of their outcome, their choices, which would cast them out of the presence of God, "he feared lest they should be cast off from the presence of the Lord."

It is certainly just to assign a person a state they choose to be in, I have no problem with such justice. However, I do have a problem believing that a person who desires to further their progression can never do so again because of the very limited opportunity they had here. 

Quote

Here are scriptures which one with the idea of "eternal progression" between kingdoms will have to seek to explain:

1) Mosiah 16:11, "If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation" (Endless, what does endless mean?)

2) Helaman 12:26, "Yea, who shall be consigned to a state of endless misery, fulfilling the words which say: They that have done good shall have everlasting life; and they that have done evil shall have everlasting damnation. And thus it is. Amen."

3) Mosiah 2: 33, "For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge." (everlasting punishment)

4) Alma 9:28, "if they have been righteous they shall reap the salvation of their souls, according to the power and deliverance of Jesus Christ; and if they have been evil they shall reap the damnation of their souls, according to the power and captivation of the devil."

5) Mosiah 3:25, "And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls." (no more return)

If you believe in eternal progression, I am fine with this, then the question in return is how does one justify the concept in light of all scriptures/doctrine specifying there is no return, endless punishment, endless misery for those who have listed to obey not God and his spirit.

Note: It is completely off base to say "We don't know" or "God will work it out" and then in the same breath criticize those who believe that there is further progression. If you do not know then I suggest you be open to others opinions on the matter. 

Personal opinions can be rejected any time, without being off base in the same breath saying "We don't know" or "God will work it out". There are a lot of "opinions" in the world that I can close myself to while still recognizing God will work it out. It is not off base in the least. We all choose to be open or closed as determined by the argument given and support -- even yourself.

You asked, "If you believe in eternal progression, I am fine with this, then the question in return is how does one justify the concept in light of all scriptures/doctrine specifying there is no return, endless punishment, endless misery for those who have listed to obey not God and his spirit." In this case the Lord has given us the anwer. He said, "And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless. Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand. Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment." (D&C 19:4-6). In other words the punishment is eternal but a person will pass through it once he repents. The punishment is eternal but a person does not need to endlessly suffer that punishment, once he has changed his/her punishment reaches an end. 

Edited December 27, 2016 by james12

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, james12 said:

Hi Anddenex, Thanks for taking up this discussion it is an important and interesting one. 

So in your interpretation we could progress in the eternities before this life, perhaps eons and eons back but at the end of this life are cut off from further progression? Also in your interpretation this life is sufficient because of what we have been given before it? This does not "taste" good to me. Given that we had such a long time before to progress why must a person be stopped now?

The initial question I would say has two parts to the answer. According to what has been revealed we know that we had progressed to a point where God presented a plan for us to become more like him. We were taught sufficiently to know good from evil and according to Alma we were all on the same standing at some point in our pre-mortal life, "Or in fine, in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren;" (emphasis added; Alma 13:5) In order to further progress, become like our Father in heaven, we required a mortal state to obtain a body. We in essence are still progressing.

Second part, we are not cut off from progressing no matter our kingdom, to a point. Telestial bodies will be able to progress according to the natural/spiritual laws and state of a Telestial glory -- they are still progressing according to the state they chose. Terrestial bodies will be able to progress according to the natural/spiritual laws and state of a Terrestial glory; they are also still progressing within their glory. Celestial bodies will have the same option to progress according to their glory (which ultimately is all the Father hath).

No one is cut off from progressing; although, individuals will be cut off from becoming like our Father in heaven if they have chosen a lesser glory/state due to their choices here upon earth. I believe the option of doctrine "tasting" good is important as the fruit of the tree of life is good to our taste. At times truth is "bitter" as with polygamy. This truth doesn't "taste" good to some, and that is fine. I, at this point, haven't been convinced that their is eternal progression from kingdom to kingdom, and the notion that we can doesn't "taste" good according to what has been revealed.

1 hour ago, james12 said:

I also question this idea of God's foreknowledge and his judgement of us. If he knew what we were to choose and yet still required us to pass through this earth life, so that we could experience what we need to, why do we think that he can judge us after this life such that we don't need to experience the rest of it? 

This statement I believe I would begin with a question, "What do you mean by experience the "rest of it"? In answer to your question an earthly exemplum to advance possible spiritual truth is that of a teacher and student. While attending school we have a "time period" of study and homework to prepare for a final exam. By the end of the exam, teachers will have a good idea as to who will pass the final exam, and which students will not pass the final exam. Would it be just for the teacher to come up to a student and say the following, "Hello, [calls students by name], I know you won't pass this test. In light of this knowledge, I am not going to allow you to take the test because I already know you will fail." Now, would this be just. No. After the final exam though, an accounting is received, and there is nothing one can do to make it up. That period, that class time, is now over. A period of probation before the final exam was wasted for some, while others studiously did their part and reaped the rewards of their efforts. In other words, we reap what we sow.

I don't believe God is judging us, so to speak. I believe in the words of Isaiah who mentions the "show of [our] countenance" doth condemn us. Our countenance resembling the state of our glory before judgement is received. The principle again of reaping what we sow applies. People will reap the reward, the glory, which they have sowed. These are eternal assignments (assignments might not be the best word, but the best word that comes to my mind).

In light of the last question, I believe people will experience the rest of it according to their choices in this life. They in essence become their own judge of their own state and glory.

1 hour ago, james12 said:

It is certainly just to assign a person a state they choose to be in, I have no problem with such justice. However, I do have a problem believing that a person who desires to further their progression can never do so again because of the very limited opportunity they had here. 

We have an agreement within the first sentence. We do diverge on what "tastes" good regarding a person's desire to further progress but are assigned to a Telestial or Terrestial glory without any option to progress further. I am reminded of Nephi's statement with regards to his posterity and their future decisions, "O the pain, and the anguish of my soul for the loss of the slain of my people! For I, Nephi, have seen it, and it well nigh consumeth me before the presence of the Lord; but I must cry unto my God: Thy ways are just." God's ways are just, and I don't see anything unjust with an individual who chose a specific path; although they want to progress to become like God, but are unable to due to their choices. Their state/glory is fixed, their ability to progress within their glory is not. They can progress within these natural/spiritual laws that exist for these Kingdoms.

1 hour ago, james12 said:

You asked, "If you believe in eternal progression, I am fine with this, then the question in return is how does one justify the concept in light of all scriptures/doctrine specifying there is no return, endless punishment, endless misery for those who have listed to obey not God and his spirit." In this case the Lord has given us the anwer. He said, "And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless. Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand. Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment." (D&C 19:4-6). In other words the punishment is eternal but a person will pass through it once he repents. The punishment is eternal but a person does not need to endlessly suffer that punishment, once he has changed his/her punishment reaches an end. 

Thank you. We would diverge in interpretation of this verse. The punishment is affixed, endless. The torment of this punishment is not affixed and a person may be released from endless torment, but not the punishment of their decisions. Joseph Fielding Smith, “The same punishment always follows the same offense, according to the laws of God who is eternal and endless, hence it is called endless punishment, and eternal punishment, because it is the punishment which God has fixed according to unchangeable law. A man may partake of endless torment, and when he has paid the penalty for his transgression, he is released, but the punishment remains and awaits the next culprit, and so on forever” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:228).

Joseph Fielding Smith also states it differently, "“We learn from the Doctrine and Covenants that eternal punishment, or everlasting punishment, does not mean that a man condemned will endure this punishment forever. … When a man pays the penalty of his misdeeds and humbly repents, receiving the gospel, he comes out of the prison house and is assigned to some degree of glory according to his worth and merit” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–1956], 2:160).

James E Talmage, “‘Eternal punishment’ … does not mean that the individual sufferer or sinner is to be eternally and everlastingly made to endure and suffer. No man will be kept in hell longer than is necessary to bring him to a fitness for something better. When he reaches that stage the prison doors will open and there will be rejoicing among the hosts who welcome him into a better state” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1930, 97; see also Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, 2nd ed. [Church Educational System manual, 2001], 37).

We agree that a person is able to pass through an "eternal torment" and then "prison doors" are opened and they are received to a state of glory, the state which they have shown themselves to be, as the "punishment remains." Otherwise God would become a liar, because he has declared punishments are affixed according to unchangeable laws. This verse doesn't appear to apply to eternal progression from kingdom to kingdom, but an overcoming a personal torment and an acceptance of the punishment received according to their personal desires and choice.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Anddenex
added for clarification, "from kingdom to kingdom."

[Rob Osborn]

The Book of Mormon does not teach that repentance and acceptance of the gospel is available after death. The D&C however does indeed teach that repentance and acceptance of the gospel is available after death. If all we had was this short life to prepare for celestial exaltation pretty much all would fail as none become perfect through the atonement in this life. We must continue on in our progression in the next life before we can attain the perfection necessary for the Celestial kingdom. That is why we have paradise and spirit prison and also the millennium- so that we can attain or progress to the perfection required to inherit the kingdom of heaven.

[james12]

4 hours ago, Vort said:

Criticize their belief? I agree. Criticize their teaching? I disagree. The teaching of "progression between kingdoms" is a false doctrine, even if it turns out to be a true principle (which I don't believe). It is not a doctrine of the Church, and it definitely leads many in the wrong direction. If it is true, it is a truth that God has kept hidden and unrevealed publicly, and those who receive this truth are covenant-bound to keep their mouths shut about it. As for those who just speculate about it, they should make very clear they are not preaching any Church doctrine.

I'm glad you agree. My point is not to reveal true principles that have been purposely kept hidden, but to indicate areas where some tend to harden their heart. By shedding light on these areas they can instead be open to personal revelation. The Lord is willing to reveal such truth to anyone who will seek it, but when we harden our hearts we receive the lesser portion of the word until we know nothing concerning the mysteries and we are taken captive by the devil (see Alma 12:10-11).

[james12]

3 hours ago, Anddenex said:

The initial question I would say has two parts to the answer. According to what has been revealed we know that we had progressed to a point where God presented a plan for us to become more like him. We were taught sufficiently to know good from evil and according to Alma we were all on the same standing at some point in our pre-mortal life, "Or in fine, in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren;" (emphasis added; Alma 13:5) In order to further progress, become like our Father in heaven, we required a mortal state to obtain a body. We in essence are still progressing.

Second part, we are not cut off from progressing no matter our kingdom, to a point. Telestial bodies will be able to progress according to the natural/spiritual laws and state of a Telestial glory -- they are still progressing according to the state they chose. Terrestial bodies will be able to progress according to the natural/spiritual laws and state of a Terrestial glory; they are also still progressing within their glory. Celestial bodies will have the same option to progress according to their glory (which ultimately is all the Father hath).

No one is cut off from progressing; although, individuals will be cut off from becoming like our Father in heaven if they have chosen a lesser glory/state due to their choices here upon earth. I believe the option of doctrine "tasting" good is important as the fruit of the tree of life is good to our taste. At times truth is "bitter" as with polygamy. This truth doesn't "taste" good to some, and that is fine. I, at this point, haven't been convinced that their is eternal progression from kingdom to kingdom, and the notion that we can doesn't "taste" good according to what has been revealed.

I agree with you on the first part of your answer. Regarding the second part, you say "individuals will be cut off from becoming like our Father in heaven if they have chosen a lesser glory/state..." this is the part I am was asking you about. It is here that I believe we disagree. I would say that no one is cut off from progression in the eternities because of the kingdom of glory they have chosen, except for the sons of perdition. The reason they are cut off is because they refuse to repent and they will refuse to repent even after they have seen the son of God. The gospel plan has become useless to them as Spencer Kimball testified, " In the realms of perdition or the kingdom of darkness where there is no light Satan and the unembodied spirits of the pre-existence shall dwell together with those of mortality who retrogress to the level of perdition. These have lost the power of regeneration. They have sunk so low as to have lost the inclinations and ability to repent, consequently the gospel plan is useless to them as an agent of growth and development" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 125). It is only these that will partake of the second death.

3 hours ago, Anddenex said:

This statement I believe I would begin with a question, "What do you mean by experience the "rest of it"? In answer to your question an earthly exemplum to advance possible spiritual truth is that of a teacher and student. While attending school we have a "time period" of study and homework to prepare for a final exam. By the end of the exam, teachers will have a good idea as to who will pass the final exam, and which students will not pass the final exam. Would it be just for the teacher to come up to a student and say the following, "Hello, [calls students by name], I know you won't pass this test. In light of this knowledge, I am not going to allow you to take the test because I already know you will fail." Now, would this be just. No. After the final exam though, an accounting is received, and there is nothing one can do to make it up. That period, that class time, is now over. A period of probation before the final exam was wasted for some, while others studiously did their part and reaped the rewards of their efforts. In other words, we reap what we sow.

I don't believe God is judging us, so to speak. I believe in the words of Isaiah who mentions the "show of [our] countenance" doth condemn us. Our countenance resembling the state of our glory before judgement is received. The principle again of reaping what we sow applies. People will reap the reward, the glory, which they have sowed. These are eternal assignments (assignments might not be the best word, but the best word that comes to my mind).

In light of the last question, I believe people will experience the rest of it according to their choices in this life. They in essence become their own judge of their own state and glory.

You previously said, "God's foreknowledge allows him to be the perfect judge." From this statement I gather that you believe that even though we have not experienced certain aspects of this earth life, God can judge us because of his foreknowledge of what we might do. I am questioning this concept. LDS theology teaches us that we had to come down to earth to experience life in a fallen state so that we might learn and grow. How then can we believe both that we had to come to earth, and that we don't need to experience life because God already knows what we will do. I contend that either we have to have a mortal experience in its fullness or that we do not, and God can judge us without us having to pass through the experience.

3 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Thank you. We would diverge in interpretation of this verse. The punishment is affixed, endless. The torment of this punishment is not affixed and a person may be released from endless torment, but not the punishment of their decisions. Joseph Fielding Smith, “The same punishment always follows the same offense, according to the laws of God who is eternal and endless, hence it is called endless punishment, and eternal punishment, because it is the punishment which God has fixed according to unchangeable law. A man may partake of endless torment, and when he has paid the penalty for his transgression, he is released, but the punishment remains and awaits the next culprit, and so on forever” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:228).

...

We agree that a person is able to pass through an "eternal torment" and then "prison doors" are opened and they are received to a state of glory, the state which they have shown themselves to be, as the "punishment remains." Otherwise God would become a liar, because he has declared punishments are affixed according to unchangeable laws. This verse doesn't appear to apply to eternal progression from kingdom to kingdom, but an overcoming a personal torment and an acceptance of the punishment received according to their personal desires and choice.

I see no justification in scripture for your separation of suffering into two types. Nor in your quotes, they are not saying someone is still being punished after their torment ends. They are saying that God's punishment remains for others to suffer if they do not chose wisely. When someone repents the punishment is over, done, finished for that person. But others may still suffer the punishment because it is eternal. This is simply a form of the law of the harvest.

Either we do not obtain and have to live with ourselves or we repent, end our suffering, and progress. This is exactly what D&C 19:5 states, "And surely every man must repent or suffer..." and again D&C 29:44, "And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not". There is no middle ground. If we repent the suffering is over. 

[Anddenex]

4 hours ago, james12 said:

I agree with you on the first part of your answer. Regarding the second part, you say "individuals will be cut off from becoming like our Father in heaven if they have chosen a lesser glory/state..." this is the part I am was asking you about. It is here that I believe we disagree. I would say that no one is cut off from progression in the eternities because of the kingdom of glory they have chosen, except for the sons of perdition. The reason they are cut off is because they refuse to repent and they will refuse to repent even after they have seen the son of God. The gospel plan has become useless to them as Spencer Kimball testified, " In the realms of perdition or the kingdom of darkness where there is no light Satan and the unembodied spirits of the pre-existence shall dwell together with those of mortality who retrogress to the level of perdition. These have lost the power of regeneration. They have sunk so low as to have lost the inclinations and ability to repent, consequently the gospel plan is useless to them as an agent of growth and development" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 125). It is only these that will partake of the second death.

Let's clarify and make sure we are understanding each other pertaining to "progression" within the eternities. Our brothers and sister who chose to not live according to the laws and commandments received will be resurrected according to their glorified state: Telestial bodies, Terrerstial bodies, and Celestial bodies. Those who receive a Telestial state will not be able to progress toward a Terrestial state, and those who earn a Terrestial body (or glory) will not be able to progress from Terrestial to a Celestial state. Are individuals able to progress within their glorified state? Yes, they are able to progress within their kingdom's unchangeable laws, but will not have any increase from one kingdom to another. The sons of perdition have no glory, there state is completely different than that of a Telestial glory, or body. They are on different plains, different levels, and there isn't any crossing between.

4 hours ago, james12 said:

You previously said, "God's foreknowledge allows him to be the perfect judge." From this statement I gather that you believe that even though we have not experienced certain aspects of this earth life, God can judge us because of his foreknowledge of what we might do. I am questioning this concept. LDS theology teaches us that we had to come down to earth to experience life in a fallen state so that we might learn and grow. How then can we believe both that we had to come to earth, and that we don't need to experience life because God already knows what we will do. I contend that either we have to have a mortal experience in its fullness or that we do not, and God can judge us without us having to pass through the experience.

True. LDS theology teaches us that we had to come down to earth and experience this life. There is no disagreement here. I am confused as to where you feel I said we didn't need to come to earth. I never hinted nor declared that we didn't need to come to earth because God already knows what we would choose. I said he is a perfect judge, and his foreknowledge adds to that perfection. This foreknowledge allowed him to know who should be our Savior. As specified by Alma, "And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God," and later in the same chapter, "This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from eternity to all eternity, according to his foreknowledge of all things." So again, I am confused as to how you interpreted any of my statements declaring we did not need mortal life, as we know doctrine is clear from the fall that this was necessary for progressing further, or to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

4 hours ago, james12 said:

I see no justification in scripture for your separation of suffering into two types. Nor in your quotes, they are not saying someone is still being punished after their torment ends. They are saying that God's punishment remains for others to suffer if they do not chose wisely. When someone repents the punishment is over, done, finished for that person. But others may still suffer the punishment because it is eternal. This is simply a form of the law of the harvest.

Either we do not obtain and have to live with ourselves or we repent, end our suffering, and progress. This is exactly what D&C 19:5 states, "And surely every man must repent or suffer..." and again D&C 29:44, "And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not". There is no middle ground. If we repent the suffering is over. 

Then I would suggest that you read the bolded portion of the quote again, particular this part, "but the punishment remains." That appears to be pretty clear to me. If an individual receives a life sentence, punishment, although he seeks repentance, his punishment still remains even if his torment has ceased. They indeed are saying their punishment "remains", if a punishment remains, how then do you progress outside of the current punishment -- you can't.

If these quotes weren't clear here are other quotes from Joseph Fielding Smith, "It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory? The answer to this question is, No!" Evidence provided is Doctrine and Covenants 76: 112, "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."

Those who persist in this idea he further declares, "This is false reasoning, illogical,and creates mischief in making people think they may procrastinate their repentance, but in course of time they will reach exaltation in celestial glory." He provides a common analogy I have heard members share, "The celestial and terrestial and telestial glories. I have heard compared to the wheels on a train. The second and third may, and will, reach the place where the first was, but the first will have moved on and will still be just the same distance in advance of them. This illustration is not true! The wheels do not run on the same track, and do not go in the same direction. The terrestial and the telestial are limited in their powers of advancement, worlds without end." Note they have powers of advancement, progression, but not exaltation. They will never extend beyond their current glory, their current state.

Our Doctrine and Covenants declares quite clearly that some who have obtained the celestial glory will not obtain exaltation, and if a person is unable to progress towards exaltation within the celestial kingdom I am not sure how anyone would think they can then progress from the telestial to the celestial. Doctrine and Covenants 132:17, "For these angles did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity, and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever." (emphasis added)

The first sentence of the last paragraph we disagree. There are individuals who will be exalted and will progress within their received exalted state. There are individual who receive telestial glory and are able to progress only within their glory -- they have no increase. Progression between kingdoms is not what D&C 19:5 teaches, nor does it declare it. Yes, the suffering may be over, but as in Joseph Fielding Smith's words, "the punishment remains."

Edited December 28, 2016 by Anddenex

[Rob Osborn]

Its rather obvious that this doctrine is anything but clear and agreed upon amongst the saints.

[Guest]

Once we believe that there is upward mobility between kingdoms, I fail to see any substantive difference between our idea of salvation/exaltation and that of the sectarians.  And if there is none, then there is no point in our faith being anything special.  We may as well do exactly as one of my "born again" clients used to say,"I figure He made me this way.  So, whatever I do is ok with Him."

Edited December 28, 2016 by Guest

[james12]

6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Once we believe that there is upward mobility between kingdoms, I fail to see any substantive difference between our idea of salvation/exaltation and that of the sectarians.  And if there is none, then there is no point in our faith being anything special.  We may as well do exactly as one of my "born again" clients used to say,"I figure He made me this way.  So, whatever I do is ok with Him."

There is a huge difference. We understand that there are certain experiences that can only be learned here in mortality. We understand that it is thanks to Adam's fall and Christ's atonement that we have the opportunity to repent here and now. We understand the suffering and pain we must endure after this life is over. 

Please do not misunderstand, this is the time for men to prepare to meet God. Here on earth we have an opportunity we will find nowhere else. Because we are cut off from God's presence it is only in this life that we face certain challenges. There is no other way. 

[james12]

8 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Let's clarify and make sure we are understanding each other pertaining to "progression" within the eternities. Our brothers and sister who chose to not live according to the laws and commandments received will be resurrected according to their glorified state: Telestial bodies, Terrerstial bodies, and Celestial bodies. Those who receive a Telestial state will not be able to progress toward a Terrestial state, and those who earn a Terrestial body (or glory) will not be able to progress from Terrestial to a Celestial state. Are individuals able to progress within their glorified state? Yes, they are able to progress within their kingdom's unchangeable laws, but will not have any increase from one kingdom to another. The sons of perdition have no glory, there state is completely different than that of a Telestial glory, or body. They are on different plains, different levels, and there isn't any crossing between.

I understand your position.

8 hours ago, Anddenex said:

True. LDS theology teaches us that we had to come down to earth and experience this life. There is no disagreement here. I am confused as to where you feel I said we didn't need to come to earth. I never hinted nor declared that we didn't need to come to earth because God already knows what we would choose. I said he is a perfect judge, and his foreknowledge adds to that perfection. This foreknowledge allowed him to know who should be our Savior. As specified by Alma, "And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God," and later in the same chapter, "This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from eternity to all eternity, according to his foreknowledge of all things." So again, I am confused as to how you interpreted any of my statements declaring we did not need mortal life, as we know doctrine is clear from the fall that this was necessary for progressing further, or to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Some individuals come to earth and die when they are not even one day old. Other's live 100 years. There is no way the baby experienced all the vicissitudes of life (or the adult either for that matter). This causes a problem in the way we talk about the need to experience certain trials here on earth compared to the way we talk about the foreknowledge of God. The baby experienced almost no trials but is saved in the celestial kingdom. The adult faced challenges lasting 100 years and may or may not reach the celestial kingdom. As LDS we claim that God's foreknowledge is sufficient that the baby is saved in the kingdom of God while on the other hand we tell the old man that he needed to face trials to gain experience that could be gained in no other way. If, as you said earlier, we were on the same standing as our brother's and sister's at some point before this life. How is it that one individual need not experience this earth life, while the other must do so? Do you see the dual standard? Either all must experience this life, all need not do so because of God's foreknowledge, or there is something we do not understand.   

8 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Then I would suggest that you read the bolded portion of the quote again, particular this part, "but the punishment remains." That appears to be pretty clear to me. If an individual receives a life sentence, punishment, although he seeks repentance, his punishment still remains even if his torment has ceased. They indeed are saying their punishment "remains", if a punishment remains, how then do you progress outside of the current punishment -- you can't.

If these quotes weren't clear here are other quotes from Joseph Fielding Smith, "It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory? The answer to this question is, No!" Evidence provided is Doctrine and Covenants 76: 112, "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."

Those who persist in this idea he further declares, "This is false reasoning, illogical,and creates mischief in making people think they may procrastinate their repentance, but in course of time they will reach exaltation in celestial glory." He provides a common analogy I have heard members share, "The celestial and terrestial and telestial glories. I have heard compared to the wheels on a train. The second and third may, and will, reach the place where the first was, but the first will have moved on and will still be just the same distance in advance of them. This illustration is not true! The wheels do not run on the same track, and do not go in the same direction. The terrestial and the telestial are limited in their powers of advancement, worlds without end." Note they have powers of advancement, progression, but not exaltation. They will never extend beyond their current glory, their current state.

Our Doctrine and Covenants declares quite clearly that some who have obtained the celestial glory will not obtain exaltation, and if a person is unable to progress towards exaltation within the celestial kingdom I am not sure how anyone would think they can then progress from the telestial to the celestial. Doctrine and Covenants 132:17, "For these angles did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity, and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever." (emphasis added)

The first sentence of the last paragraph we disagree. There are individuals who will be exalted and will progress within their received exalted state. There are individual who receive telestial glory and are able to progress only within their glory -- they have no increase. Progression between kingdoms is not what D&C 19:5 teaches, nor does it declare it. Yes, the suffering may be over, but as in Joseph Fielding Smith's words, "the punishment remains."

You need to finish the sentence in the same quote you provided. I'll give you it here in full with the part you are missing highlighted, "A man may partake of endless torment, and when he has paid the penalty for his transgression, he is released, but the punishment remains and awaits the next culprit, and so on forever”. Note he does not say, "his punishment remains" but instead says, "the punishment remains". In other words the punishment remains for the next culprit, but the one who repents is released from it. 

This gets into questions about the type of God's justice. In our justice system a judge or jury defines how long a person must go to prison in order to pay for their crime. Let's suppose it is ten years. If that person exhibits good behavior often they will be released before the ten years have been served. Why would a parole board consider reducing the sentence? Because the convict has learned their lesson. In other words the person has changed. The purpose for the punishment has ended. I believe this is how God works. He does not require a person to suffer one moment longer than they need to. If the person changes and pleads pardon the Lord forgives. The punishment has ended!

[zil]

2 hours ago, james12 said:

Please do not misunderstand, this is the time for men to prepare to meet God. Here on earth we have an opportunity we will find nowhere else. Because we are cut off from God's presence it is only in this life that we face certain challenges. There is no other way. 

No other way to what?  The Celestial Kingdom?  According to you, there is another way - fail to prepare here and you can always do it from one of the other kingdoms.

1 hour ago, james12 said:

Some individuals come to earth and die when they are not even one day old. Other's live 100 years. There is no way the baby experienced all the vicissitudes of life (or the adult either for that matter). This causes a problem in the way we talk about the need to experience certain trials here on earth compared to the way we talk about the foreknowledge of God. The baby experienced almost no trials but is saved in the celestial kingdom. The adult faced challenges lasting 100 years and may or may not reach the celestial kingdom. As LDS we claim that God's foreknowledge is sufficient that the baby is saved in the kingdom of God while on the other hand we tell the old man that he needed to face trials to gain experience that could be gained in no other way. If, as you said earlier, we were on the same standing as our brother's and sister's at some point before this life. How is it that one individual need not experience this earth life, while the other must do so? Do you see the dual standard? Either all must experience this life, all need not do so because of God's foreknowledge, or there is something we do not understand.   

How is it not obvious that our experience here is for our sakes, not to double-check whether God's omniscience is really omni?  That God knows what we will do does not obviate our need to experience it.  Given this fact, how is it not obvious that those who die before they've had the "full experience" fall into one of at least two categories:

1) Those who will gain their experience in the Millennium

2) Those who mastered the physical without ever experiencing it (no, I don't think it's blasphemous to suggest that some spirits in addition to Jesus Christ, progressed so far in the spirit that they had sufficient mastery to overcome physical trial without ever experiencing it, thus needing nothing more than a mortal body)

As to how it's possible that one needed long mortality and another didn't: again, how is this not obvious?  Our mortal selves vary so widely everyone can see it.  The differing degrees of glory make it quite clear that this variability will continue into eternity future.  Some of us fell away before this life, others are reported by prophets to have been more and less valiant in the pre-mortal realm.  We're different.  We each need something different in order to learn and grow to our full potential.  God knew this before hand and arranged it all so that each of us would have those experiences which ensure optimal growth.