Are Women In The Church Upset They Do Not Currently Have The Priesthoo

[Snow]

GAIA:

Hmm, i've always been told that Mormons do NOT beleive in the notion of Infallibility......

With all due respect to President Hinckley -- Are you suggesting that it's impossible for him to be in error?

That's not even close to what I'm suggesting.

What I am saying that the chances that President Hinckley, President Hunter, President Benson, President Kimball, President Lee, President Smith (etc) and all their counselors and all the members of the 12 apostles and all the other GA in modern LDS history are all wrong and that an anonymous poster on LDSTalk is correct is, er, um, practically nil.

And are you suggesting that there is something wrong with questioning? Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and other Prophets certainly didn't think so....

Nope - nothing wrong with questioning. The poster was stating something as a fact, not questioning.

Snow, respecftully, that sentiment is word for word what is recorded on page 604, volume 4 of History of the Church and is attributed to the President and Prophet of the Church, Joseph Smith Jr..

It says: 'He spoke of delivering the keys of the Priesthood to the Church, and said that the faithful members of the Relief Society should receive them in connection with their husbands, that the Saints whose integrity has been tried and proved faithful, might know how to ask the Lord and receive an answer; for according to his prayers, God had appointed him elsewhere.'

-a-train

Joseph Smith also believed that if he sent Oliver Cowdery and Hyrum Paige to Canada, they would be able to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon, just as he believed that the American Indians were the PRIMARY decendants of immigrant Israelites.

The issue here is that Joseph Smith had the power and authority to see that all his opinions that warranted it were canonized and made scripture - doctrine - policy and procedure for the Church, as did Brigham Young. There is undoubtedly a reason women holding the priesthood is nothing more that a theory based on some hand-picked quotes instead of official doctrine.

GAIA:

I'm afraid some folks just aren't interested in the facts or quotes, ATrain.

But it was a worthy effort, and i'm sure those who are interested and open, appreciated it. :)

Thanks --

~Gaia

Completely untrue (you are referring to me). I am in fact very interested. I own and read almost every book and article that's been quote in these discussions.

Having read them, I understand that small quotes and snipets is a poor way to understand a doctrine just as I know that using a few hand-picked quotes that ignore other thousands of other quotes and teachings to the contrary is a lazy and errant way to discover truth.

If you, Gaia, as your post implies, ARE interested in facts and quotes, then why do you ignore the teachings of the Prophet, 1st Presidency, Quorum of the Twelve and the Seventies?

[Gaia]

There is undoubtedly a reason women holding the priesthood is nothing more that a theory based on some hand-picked quotes instead of official doctrine.

GAIA:

Oh, Undoubtedly.

But i respectfully disagree that it's "nothing more than a theory" --

As this discussion proves, It's enough to raise the hackles on a LOT of men, and most men don't respond so emotionally to mere "theories"

Blessings --

~Gaia

[a-train]

Here is a great lesson on the subject of Women and the Priesthood.

Snow, On President Smith's statement, can't it be reconciled with all you know about the Priesthood? Can't this notion of the faithful members of the Relief Society receiving the keys of the Priesthood with their husbands be coherent with the rest of our doctrine in the Church?

-a-train

[MaidservantX]

read some of Cyril of Jerusalem's writings. You might be surprised.

Give us a taste, doc. :)

And other comments:

I don't see that women's priesthood is ever exercised in the Church as a Church organization/ and government. That is -- no blessing the Sacrament. The Ordinances in the church -- the church being a preparatory organization (NOT celestial) -- need to be administered by men. I love this the more I think about it.

I'm not sure I would call it Melchizedek or Aaronic Priesthood; although, I'm still thinking through some temple things on that.

Right now, I'm seeing that my priesthood is to create a human being -- my children; at this point in tandem with God (and my husband of course). The priesthood in creating a family requires the male and the female. I would say neither has this priesthood without the other. I personally call it the patriarchal priesthood, but that's just me.

And Gaia, I would say that, ultimately, a man's fatherhood is his priesthood, and his priesthood his fatherhood; for God is our Father.

To answer the OP: I'm happy the way things are. I do yearn for greater understanding of my purpose as a woman in this life, but that is always going to be the case.

[Snow]

As this discussion proves, It's enough to raise the hackles on a LOT of men, and most men don't respond so emotionally to mere "theories"

You'll find that I am equally vociferous in debating any heretical and untrue claims to doctrinicity.

Here is a great lesson on the subject of Women and the Priesthood.

Snow, On President Smith's statement, can't it be reconciled with all you know about the Priesthood? Can't this notion of the faithful members of the Relief Society receiving the keys of the Priesthood with their husbands be coherent with the rest of our doctrine in the Church?

-a-train

It could - if it jived with the scriptures, official current pronouncements of the prophet, the 1st Presidency, the 12 and the General Authorities.

It, however, does not.

[CrimsonKairos]

I love how the doctrinal objections a few of us have raised are magically transmuted into "hackles being raised."

Gimme a break, Gaia. We don't need melodrama added to the mix. It's interesting enough already. B)

Objecting is not the same as experiencing a primal reaction of fear or anger.

[sixpacktr]

As this discussion proves, It's enough to raise the hackles on a LOT of men, and most men don't respond so emotionally to mere "theories"

You're right. Women having the PH is doctrine. I'm just trying to protect 'my territory'. During our Bishopric meetings and double secret ninja PH meetings we discuss how to keep the sisters down so that they don't get too 'uppity'.

False doctrine does get my hackles up, as it should for you as well. And I still hold that you wouldn't have believed Joseph as well. Snow has put it well. So did Joseph F Smith. He called it 'religious hobbies'. Take one quote, one verse, one talk, and base your entire testimony (or lack thereof) on that, and that you now have the secret knowledge that the brethren are 'hiding'.

How silly.

[CrimsonKairos]

It's the allure of the secret priesthood gnosis...women can't resist it.

Though priesthood gnosis means just that:

Priesthood gnosis...

Priesthood? No, sis.

[sixpacktr]

CK,

I don't see a 'groaning laugh' in the smilies.... So I'll give you this

Clever!

[snipe123]

It's the allure of the secret priesthood gnosis...women can't resist it.

Though priesthood gnosis means just that:

Priesthood gnosis...

Priesthood? No, sis.

LOL!!! Ok, can we please all admit that was really funny?

[a-train]

<div class='quotemain'>

Here is a great lesson on the subject of Women and the Priesthood.

Snow, On President Smith's statement, can't it be reconciled with all you know about the Priesthood? Can't this notion of the faithful members of the Relief Society receiving the keys of the Priesthood with their husbands be coherent with the rest of our doctrine in the Church?

-a-train

It could - if it jived with the scriptures, official current pronouncements of the prophet, the 1st Presidency, the 12 and the General Authorities.

It, however, does not.

In what way does that statement 'not jive'?

-a-train

[StrawberryFields]

<div class='quotemain'>

Hey Iggy,

I'm curious: how do you exercise your PH?

I think you are correct in a way, in that THROUGH my PH my wife is blessed, but I don't think that anytime soon she'll be asked to bless the sacrament, baptize someone, give a blessing, etc.

I'd like you to clarify what you mean. Are you stating you can do the above, or simply that through your righteous husband you are blessed with the PH?

Thanks.

Answer me this Six, what happens when there are no men in the church - lets say they are ill, wounded, dead - and the women gather together on Sunday for church. Should all those women and young children be bereft of the healing and blessings of the sacrament? No - in cases such as those, the endowed women can bless and pass the sacrament can they not??

When my husband was in the hospital I could not reach the Brethren to come bless him. His blood was not clotting and he was bleeding out. He could not and should never bless himself - I laid hands on him and called upon Father for a priesthood blessing upon him. Is this not what you men do when you bless the sick????

When I received my endowments I was single, I called upon Father for a priesthood blessing upon my home. I asked Father for the protection and blessings of the priesthood. Is this not what you men do????

When I received my endowments and when I was sealed to my husband I was empowered with gift of the holy priesthood. I do not use it in the same frequency as the men do - I feel that I hold it in a more sacred light. I know the power of this priesthood and there is no way I would ever be cavalier in my usage of it.

I use it in tandem with my husband AND I do so in righteousness. I have never had the brethren lay hands on me and endow me with the Aaronic or Melchezedik priesthood - through my endowment I have been given the power of the priesthood to use in tandem with my husband who holds the priesthood.

Interesting post Iggy.

You say you use this power in tandem with your husband but you can also use if when you are single?

I found it instersting that you give a disclaimer of sorts by saying "I do not use it in the same frequency as the men do "....

[Gaia]

I don't see that women's priesthood is ever exercised in the Church as a Church organization/ and government. That is -- no blessing the Sacrament. The Ordinances in the church -- the church being a preparatory organization (NOT celestial) -- need to be administered by men. I love this the more I think about it.

GAIA:

Hello Xhenli --

I gues i'm wondering why such dicussions so often are boiled down to offices (like Bishop) and duties (like passing Sacrament or baptizing others).

The teachings of Joseph Smith relative to the Three "Orders" of Priesthood are particularly relevant to such discussions:

Three Grand Orders OF PRIESTHOOD - TPJS (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith) p 322

"There are three grand orders of priesthood referred to here.

1st. The King of Shiloam (Salem) had power and authority over that of Abraham, holding the key and the power of endless life. ....

What was the power of Melchizedek? 'Twas not the Priesthood of Aaron which administers in outward ordinances, and the offering of sacrifices. Those holding the fulness of the Melchizedek Priesthood are kings and priests of the Most High God, holding the keys of power and blessings. In fact, that Priesthood is a perfect law of theocracy, and stands as God to give laws to the people, administering endless lives to the sons and daughters of Adam."

There is a LOT of inflormation and insight on the topics of PH, exaltation, and eternal progression, in that short paragraph :) ....

And Gaia, I would say that, ultimately, a man's fatherhood is his priesthood, and his priesthood his fatherhood; for God is our Father.

GAIA:

They are *similar and somewhat related*, but they are not the same thing.

A simple definition of a "King or Queen" is "one who administers TEMPORAL blessings to others";

Similarly, a simple definition of "Priest" or "Priestess" is "one who administers SPIRITUAL blessings to others".

A person may act as a Priest/ess to his or her own children, or to others to whom s/he is not at all related biologically.

Blessings --

~GAia

[StrawberryFields]

Answer me this Six, what happens when there are no men in the church - lets say they are ill, wounded, dead - and the women gather together on Sunday for church. Should all those women and young children be bereft of the healing and blessings of the sacrament? No - in cases such as those, the endowed women can bless and pass the sacrament can they not??

When my husband was in the hospital I could not reach the Brethren to come bless him. His blood was not clotting and he was bleeding out. He could not and should never bless himself - I laid hands on him and called upon Father for a priesthood blessing upon him. Is this not what you men do when you bless the sick????

When I received my endowments I was single, I called upon Father for a priesthood blessing upon my home. I asked Father for the protection and blessings of the priesthood. Is this not what you men do????

When I received my endowments and when I was sealed to my husband I was empowered with gift of the holy priesthood. I do not use it in the same frequency as the men do - I feel that I hold it in a more sacred light. I know the power of this priesthood and there is no way I would ever be cavalier in my usage of it.

I use it in tandem with my husband AND I do so in righteousness. I have never had the brethren lay hands on me and endow me with the Aaronic or Melchezedik priesthood - through my endowment I have been given the power of the priesthood to use in tandem with my husband who holds the priesthood.

This reminds me of something I heard a few years back when Nick was going through so much.

The woman I was talking to asked me why I just didn't give him a blessing. I was shocked and asked what she meant she began to tell me that there was a book and she would share it with me and that the way it is distributed was only hand to hand; woman to woman...

I never met up with her to get it....

[CrimsonKairos]

Three Grand Orders OF PRIESTHOOD - TPJS (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith) p 322

First off, you didn't even explain what Joseph Smith said the three orders were (pp. 322-323):

Melchizedek

Patriarchal

Aaronic

So I'm still confused as to how any of what the Prophet said in those two pages has anything to do with women having any portion of the Holy Priesthood after the Order of the Son of God.

You quote Joseph Smith, and then just say, "That says alot about exaltation, the ph, etc..." as if that advances your assertion one whit.

I might as well say, "Genesis shows that Abraham had the priesthood at one time. That says alot about progression, the ph, etc..."

Would you mind clarifying what your point was in posting that quote from TPJS?

p.s. 'berry, good call not meeting that lady again. Sounds like one of those cults hiding behind the Church's skirts, pretending to be of the flock.

[Elphaba]

<div class='quotemain'>

How do you know? Are you a woman?

Elphaba

As if the posters ability to understand the sentiments of others is dependent on the poster's gender.... I mean reaaalllly.

Do you then maintain - as your post implies - that because you are a woman you understand what the majority of women think?

That's not what my post implies. That's what you, incorrectly, infer, and you know it. However, you post it anyway as it gives you the chance to bow to me for a dance. I'm sorry, my dance card is full.

Elphaba

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

How do you know? Are you a woman?

Elphaba

As if the posters ability to understand the sentiments of others is dependent on the poster's gender.... I mean reaaalllly.

Do you then maintain - as your post implies - that because you are a woman you understand what the majority of women think?

That's not what my post implies. That's what you, incorrectly, infer, and you know it. However, you post it anyway as it gives you the chance to bow to me for a dance. I'm sorry, my dance card is full.

Elphaba

Your operating under a flawed assumption - that everyone but you is an idiot.

Only an idiot would believe you when you say "How do you know? Are you a woman?" you are not inferring that it takes being a woman to know what women think.

[CrimsonKairos]

True enough.

[Gaia]

First off, you didn't even explain what Joseph Smith said the three orders were (pp. 322-323):

Melchizedek

Patriarchal

Aaronic

GAIA:

Exactly so. :)

So I'm still confused as to how any of what the Prophet said in those two pages has anything to do with women having any portion of the Holy Priesthood after the Order of the Son of God.

You quote Joseph Smith, and then just say, "That says alot about exaltation, the ph, etc..." as if that advances your assertion one whit.

GAIA:

Please stop making assumptions about my beliefs, attitudes, experiences and intentions.

The only "assertion" i made or was trying to make in that entire post is that that quote "says a lot about exaltation, the ph, etc." and i think it does.

Would you mind clarifying what your point was in posting that quote from TPJS?

GAIA:

There had been a lot of (heated and in some cases, somewhat confused) discussion on the nature and meaning of Priesthood.

I thought that quote helped clarify some important information on the nature of Presthood, that had not been (explicitly) raised previously;

And my "point" was to encourage people to prayerfully study the quote in the context of the entire discussion and the comments that had been made, and see what THEY get out of it .

Sorta like:

(Doctrine and Covenants 9:8 --

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

But ok, since you insist, i will offer a few more thoughts: however, I haven't much time tonight, i'll try to get some tomorrow to elaborate; but for now:

Most of the discussion (with a few exceptions) has and in fact, usually does (for reasons that might be interesting to consider) focused upon Priesthood in terms of just Two of those Three Orders, as if all there was to or of PH was Aaronic (ie, blessing the Sacrament) or Melchizedek (ie, quorums or leadership positions).

The fact that there is a Third Order, and that those holding it are kings and priests

[or, as i quoted previously, from other current LDS leaders who have said, Queens and Priestesses --

- of the Most High God, holding the keys of power and blessings. In fact, that Priesthood is a perfect law of theocracy, and stands as God to give laws to the people, administering endless lives to the sons and daughters of Adam"

- This is CENTRAL to any discussion on Women and Priesthood.

For more on this, i would suggest a number of RESOURCES:

First and most important:

- Hyrum L Andrus, _Principles of Perfection_ and _Doctrines of the Kingdom_

See Also:

- Hanks, M. ed. _Women and Authority_

- “Women in the Early Christian Movement,” in _WomanSpirit Rising_ Carol P Christ and Judith Plaskow, ed.

- Scott H. Faulring, ed., An American Prophet’s Record: The Diaries & Journals of Joseph Smith, 2nd ed.

- Andrew Ehat, “_Joseph Smith’s Introduction of Temple Ordinances_”

- David John Buerger, “‘The Fullness of the Priesthood’: The Second Anointing in Latter-day Saint Theology and Practice,” _Dialogue: A Journal of MOrmon Thought_ 16 (Spring 1983):10-44.

- David John Buerger, “The Development of the Mormon Temple Endowment Ceremony,” _Dialogue_ 20 (Winter 1987):33-76.

- William G. Harwell, “_The Matriarchal Priestesshood and Emma’s Right to Succession as Presiding High Priestess and Queen_”

- D MIchael Quinn, “Mormon Women Have Had the Priesthood Since 1843,” in _Women and Authority_ Maxine Hanks, ed.

ON FEMALE PRIESTHOOD in Biblical times:

- Antony Hutchinson, “Women and Ordination: Introduction to the Biblical Context,” in _Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought_ 14 (Winter 1981): 58-74;

- Melodie Moench Charles, “Scriptural Precendents for Priesthood,” _Dialogue: A JOurnal of Mormon Thought_ 18 (Autumn 1985): 18-20;

- Savina J. Teubal, _Sarah the Priestess_ and _Ancient Sisterhood_

- Elisabeth Schussler-Fiorenza, “Women in the Early Christian Movement,” in Carol P Christ and Judith Plaskow, ed. _WomanSpirit Rising_, 84-92;

- Toscano and Toscano. _Strangers in Paradox_

Please note and be aware: Not all of these are LDS or contain official LDS doctrine.

I'll try to get time tomorrow or this weekend, to elaborate -- (I have family visiting from out of state) --

Blessings --

~Gaia

[Snow]

First and most important:

- Hyrum L Andrus, _Principles of Perfection_ and _Doctrines of the Kingdom_

See Also:

- Hanks, M. ed. _Women and Authority_

- “Women in the Early Christian Movement,” in _WomanSpirit Rising_ Carol P Christ and Judith Plaskow, ed.

- Scott H. Faulring, ed., An American Prophet’s Record: The Diaries & Journals of Joseph Smith, 2nd ed.

- Andrew Ehat, “_Joseph Smith’s Introduction of Temple Ordinances_”

- David John Buerger, “‘The Fullness of the Priesthood’: The Second Anointing in Latter-day Saint Theology and Practice,” _Dialogue: A Journal of MOrmon Thought_ 16 (Spring 1983):10-44.

- David John Buerger, “The Development of the Mormon Temple Endowment Ceremony,” _Dialogue_ 20 (Winter 1987):33-76.

- William G. Harwell, “_The Matriarchal Priestesshood and Emma’s Right to Succession as Presiding High Priestess and Queen_”

- D MIchael Quinn, “Mormon Women Have Had the Priesthood Since 1843,” in _Women and Authority_ Maxine Hanks, ed.

ON FEMALE PRIESTHOOD in Biblical times:

- Antony Hutchinson, “Women and Ordination: Introduction to the Biblical Context,” in _Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought_ 14 (Winter 1981): 58-74;

- Melodie Moench Charles, “Scriptural Precendents for Priesthood,” _Dialogue: A JOurnal of Mormon Thought_ 18 (Autumn 1985): 18-20;

- Savina J. Teubal, _Sarah the Priestess_ and _Ancient Sisterhood_

- Elisabeth Schussler-Fiorenza, “Women in the Early Christian Movement,” in Carol P Christ and Judith Plaskow, ed. _WomanSpirit Rising_, 84-92;

- Toscano and Toscano. _Strangers in Paradox_

Gaia,

How many of these books/works have you read/own?

Please note and be aware: Not all of these are LDS or contain official LDS doctrine.

Gee - ya think? I count at least 4 excommunicated apostates in your group.

Why are you wasting time quoting apostates instead of quoting current prophets and apostles?

[Elphaba]

Your operating under a flawed assumption - that everyone but you is an idiot.

Only an idiot would believe you when you say "How do you know? Are you a woman?" you are not inferring that it takes being a woman to know what women think.

Master Snow,

You are the proud winner of yet another "Snow the Strawman" award. You must have built an addition to your house to display them all by now.

And I need to place another order, as I am running out of them. You "win" them so often, sometimes more than one per day, my "just-in-time" ordering system is not working well. Plus, well, I hate to bring up the sordid side of this issue, but I've been bearing the costs myself, and it's not cheap. If anyone would like to donate to the "Snow the Strawman," awards, please PM me. I promise to maintain your anonymity.

Hey, Maestro, perhaps you'd like to contribute yourself. I know you love and are proud of the little "strawman" statuettes, and proudly display them for all of your visitors to see. Do you have a buck or two to spare to to keep your notoriety honored for all time and eternity?

Elphie

[Snow]

In what way does that statement 'not jive'?

-a-train

Huh?

It doesn't jive in that the scriptures don't say it. Correct me if I am wrong but where in the D&C does it say that the priesthood is conferred upon women?

The D&C is very clear in the who, the how and the what of men and the priesthood. It is equally clear in making no such provisions for women.

<div class='quotemain'>Your operating under a flawed assumption - that everyone but you is an idiot.

Only an idiot would believe you when you say "How do you know? Are you a woman?" you are not inferring that it takes being a woman to know what women think.

Master Snow,

You are the proud winner of yet another "Snow the Strawman" award. You must have built an addition to your house to display them all by now.

And I need to place another order, as I am running out of them. You "win" them so often, sometimes more than one per day, my "just-in-time" ordering system is not working well. Plus, well, I hate to bring up the sordid side of this issue, but I've been bearing the costs myself, and it's not cheap. If anyone would like to donate to the "Snow the Strawman," awards, please PM me. I promise to maintain your anonymity.

Hey, Maestro, perhaps you'd like to contribute yourself. I know you love and are proud of the little "strawman" statuettes, and proudly display them for all of your visitors to see. Do you have a buck or two to spare to to keep your notoriety honored for all time and eternity?

Elphie

I note that you completely ignored the point.

Care to explain how it is a strawman point that when I say, in direct response to the specific point you made, "... when you say "How do you know? Are you a woman?" you are not inferring that it takes being a woman to know what women think."

You made the statement, I responded directly to the statement - you then claim that I did not respond to the statement but rather threw up a strawman. Do you know what a strawman is?

When I received my endowments and when I was sealed to my husband I was empowered with gift of the holy priesthood. I do not use it in the same frequency as the men do - I feel that I hold it in a more sacred light. I know the power of this priesthood and there is no way I would ever be cavalier in my usage of it.

I use it in tandem with my husband AND I do so in righteousness. I have never had the brethren lay hands on me and endow me with the Aaronic or Melchezedik priesthood - through my endowment I have been given the power of the priesthood to use in tandem with my husband who holds the priesthood.

Every priesthood holder in the Church can trace his priesthood lineage directly to Joseph Smith and hence to Peter James and John. Please post your exact priesthood lineage.

Every priesthood in the Church can state the specific things they do with their priesthood that they could not do with out it - baptise, bless the sacrament, hold specific keys, preside at such and such quorum. Please state the specific things that you do with your priesthood that you could not do without it?

What does your Stake President and Bishop say about your power of the priesthood? What assignments do they give you relating to your priesthood?

[Gaia]

Why are you wasting time quoting apostates instead of quoting current prophets and apostles?

GAIA:

First, as you would know if you'd actually read my posts, i've quoted a number of Prophets and apostles.

Secondly, as Elphaba has already indicated, many of those we've quoted or referred to are AWARD WINNING EXPERTS in LDS history.

It's very easy -- but well known as a logical fallacy -- to dismiss someone's argument on the basis of their personal issues or problems, real or imagined.

Frankly, their personal issues or problems are none of our business -- unless we happen to be their Priesthood authorities -- and then only within the ecclesiastical (Church) context -- not on public discussion boards. In fact, that's one reason why the Church does not broadcast the reasons for excommunications -- so people will NOT contribute to personal gossip about them.

~Gaia

[Gaia]

Every priesthood holder in the Church can trace his priesthood lineage directly to Joseph Smith and hence to Peter James and John. Please post your exact priesthood lineage.

Every priesthood in the Church can state the specific things they do with their priesthood that they could not do with out it - baptise, bless the sacrament, hold specific keys, preside at such and such quorum. Please state the specific things that you do with your priesthood that you could not do without it?

What does your Stake President and Bishop say about your power of the priesthood? What assignments do they give you relating to your priesthood?

GAIA:

As I quoted Joseph Smith previously (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 322) there are THREE GRAND ORDERS of Priesthood;

And it is the Aaronic Order which administers in outward ordinances, and the offering of sacrifices....

BYU Relligion Professor emeritus Hyrum Andrus explains:

The "different portions or degrees" of the Melchizedek Priesthood were arranged into systems called "orders of the priesthood," each structured according to a given organizational design and in possession of specific rights and powers. The Prophet taught that there were "three grand orders of priesthood"—the Melchizedek, the Aaronic or Levitical, and the Patriarchal. fn The first, with the second as an appendage, functioned as the basis of the Church and government of God, and the third was the perfected order in which man could receive a fulness of the Melchizedek Priesthood and be exalted as a priest and a king [or as previously quoted LDS authorities stated, Priestess and Queen] in eternity.

(Hyrum L. Andrus, Doctrines of the Kingdom [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1973], 157.)

~Gaia

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

Why are you wasting time quoting apostates instead of quoting current prophets and apostles?

GAIA:

First, as you would know if you'd actually read my posts, i've quoted a number of Prophets and apostles.

Secondly, as Elphaba has already indicated, many of those we've quoted or referred to are AWARD WINNING EXPERTS in LDS history.

It's very easy -- but well known as a logical fallacy -- to dismiss someone's argument on the basis of their personal issues or problems, real or imagined.

Frankly, their personal issues or problems are none of our business -- unless we happen to be their Priesthood authorities -- and then only within the ecclesiastical (Church) context -- not on public discussion boards. In fact, that's one reason why the Church does not broadcast the reasons for excommunications -- so people will NOT contribute to personal gossip about them.

~Gaia

Your avoiding my question.

Why are you quoting excommunicated apostates instead of current prophets and apostles?

Look - Gaia, I know the answer is because the Prophet and General Authorities all disagree with you but that you can turn to excommunicated apostates and find support for your views. My question is about why you don't want to be honest about.

<div class='quotemain'>

Every priesthood holder in the Church can trace his priesthood lineage directly to Joseph Smith and hence to Peter James and John. Please post your exact priesthood lineage.

Every priesthood in the Church can state the specific things they do with their priesthood that they could not do with out it - baptise, bless the sacrament, hold specific keys, preside at such and such quorum. Please state the specific things that you do with your priesthood that you could not do without it?

What does your Stake President and Bishop say about your power of the priesthood? What assignments do they give you relating to your priesthood?

GAIA:

As I quoted Joseph Smith previously (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 322) there are THREE GRAND ORDERS of Priesthood;

And it is the Aaronic Order which administers in outward ordinances, and the offering of sacrifices....

BYU Relligion Professor emeritus Hyrum Andrus explains:

The "different portions or degrees" of the Melchizedek Priesthood were arranged into systems called "orders of the priesthood," each structured according to a given organizational design and in possession of specific rights and powers. The Prophet taught that there were "three grand orders of priesthood"—the Melchizedek, the Aaronic or Levitical, and the Patriarchal. fn The first, with the second as an appendage, functioned as the basis of the Church and government of God, and the third was the perfected order in which man could receive a fulness of the Melchizedek Priesthood and be exalted as a priest and a king [or as previously quoted LDS authorities stated, Priestess and Queen] in eternity.

(Hyrum L. Andrus, Doctrines of the Kingdom [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1973], 157.)

~Gaia

You've completely - again - ignored my post... which was:

Every priesthood holder in the Church can trace his priesthood lineage directly to Joseph Smith and hence to Peter James and John. Please post your exact priesthood lineage.

Every priesthood in the Church can state the specific things they do with their priesthood that they could not do with out it - baptise, bless the sacrament, hold specific keys, preside at such and such quorum. Please state the specific things that you do with your priesthood that you could not do without it?

What does your Stake President and Bishop say about your power of the priesthood? What assignments do they give you relating to your priesthood?