Are Women In The Church Upset They Do Not Currently Have The Priesthoo

[pushka]

Hate to interrupt here...but Snow and Gaia seem to be arguing over a question Snow asked of Iggy, in relation to the priesthood lineage...unless Gaia is also female and claiming to hold the priesthood...if that is the case, I apologise in advance for butting in!

[CrimsonKairos]

I don't get your point Gaia: because the Aaronic priesthood is specifically for the performance of preparatory ordinance or whatever you're claiming, then women can have the Melchizedek priesthood and not have to do anything with it?

Ever heard of temple sealings? Ever heard of presiding over those with other priesthood keys and offices? Ever heard of authority to set others apart and confer keys and offices on them?

Do women do those things? Do you?

Then you don't have the priesthood, not Aaronic, not Melchizedek, and not Patriarchal. Sorry. You can't just take all these quotes about the Patriarchal priesthood being about kings and priests, and then substitute "queens and priestesses" because they're kinda' similar.

You find me one quote that says specifically (not by implication or through substitution) that the Patriarchal priesthood is about queens and priestesses doing stuff, and you'd have a starting point for your hypothesis. Failing that, I'm sorry but you're really leaning your ladder against the wrong wall.

[Gaia]

You find me one quote that says specifically (not by implication or through substitution) that the Patriarchal priesthood is about queens and priestesses doing stuff, and you'd have a starting point for your hypothesis. Failing that, I'm sorry but you're really leaning your ladder against the wrong wall.

GAIA:

Hi CrimsonKairos -

What you don't seem to understand (other than my references to quotes and doctrines which answer several of your points regarding why women "can't possibly have" priesthood -- lol -- ) is that it's not YOUR window that i'm particularly concerned with.

It's ok, CK -- i understand that you don't accept the idea. I wouldn't dream of trying to "convince" you of something against which you feel so strongly. I've learned that "arguing" doctrine is an exercise in ego and futility.

I provided the information for those who care to do some prayerful research and thinking on the subject, and as the scriptures invite, "Seek Wisdom" -- (See Proverbs 1:20-23, 8:23-26)

Blessings --

~Gaia

Hate to interrupt here...but Snow and Gaia seem to be arguing over a question Snow asked of Iggy, in relation to the priesthood lineage...unless Gaia is also female and claiming to hold the priesthood...if that is the case, I apologise in advance for butting in!

GAIA:

Hello Pushka! --

Don't worry about "butting in", at least as far as i'm concerned, you're welcome to ask any questions or clarifications.

For my position on women and Priesthood, please see Post # 56 Here:

http://www.ldstalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...=9832&st=45

In addition to the other material i've posted in this thread.

Blessings --

~Gaia

[Snow]

Hate to interrupt here...but Snow and Gaia seem to be arguing over a question Snow asked of Iggy, in relation to the priesthood lineage...unless Gaia is also female and claiming to hold the priesthood...if that is the case, I apologise in advance for butting in!

Yes - Gaia is female and maintains that she, in conflict to what the prophet and apostles say, has the priesthood, ergo they are either ignorant or lying about it.

[Dr T]

Push,

if it makes anybody feel better, I don't believe anyone but direct descendants of Aaron can have that priesthood, no one but Jesus "has the Mel. priesthood", and everyone that is saved can be considered a priest for the Lord, and Jesus after living his life and death fulfilled the law and does not needs the same lines of priest in the same way.

[Gaia]

Yes - Gaia is female and maintains that she, in conflict to what the prophet and apostles say, has the priesthood, ergo they are either ignorant or lying about it.

GAIA:

With all due respect, Snow -- YOu're entirely welcome to make statements about what YOU beleive;

But please do not presume to interpret or represent me or my thoughts or beliefs.

Anyone who actually wants to know what GAIA thinks or believes, instead of what Snow IMAGINES she believes, is welcome to ask me.

~Gaia

[pam]

<div class='quotemain'>

Yes - Gaia is female and maintains that she, in conflict to what the prophet and apostles say, has the priesthood, ergo they are either ignorant or lying about it.

GAIA:

With all due respect, Snow -- YOu're entirely welcome to make statements about what YOU beleive;

But please do not presume to interpret or represent me or my thoughts or beliefs.

Anyone who actually wants to know what GAIA thinks or believes, instead of what Snow IMAGINES she believes, is welcome to ask me.

~Gaia

Snow when did you have your sex change? You are now a female?

<div class='quotemain'>

Yes - Gaia is female and maintains that she, in conflict to what the prophet and apostles say, has the priesthood, ergo they are either ignorant or lying about it.

GAIA:

With all due respect, Snow -- YOu're entirely welcome to make statements about what YOU beleive;

But please do not presume to interpret or represent me or my thoughts or beliefs.

Anyone who actually wants to know what GAIA thinks or believes, instead of what Snow IMAGINES she believes, is welcome to ask me.

~Gaia

When did you have your sex change Snow?

[CrimsonKairos]

Pam, how does that even make sense?

edit: I get it now, never mind.

[snipe123]

<div class='quotemain'>

Yes - Gaia is female and maintains that she, in conflict to what the prophet and apostles say, has the priesthood, ergo they are either ignorant or lying about it.

GAIA:

With all due respect, Snow -- YOu're entirely welcome to make statements about what YOU beleive;

But please do not presume to interpret or represent me or my thoughts or beliefs.

Anyone who actually wants to know what GAIA thinks or believes, instead of what Snow IMAGINES she believes, is welcome to ask me.

~Gaia

Yeah Gaia, could you please pass the same sentiments on to Ogre for me who seems to think she knows the thoughts and intents of my heart better than I do? Appreciate it...Thanks...:)

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

Yes - Gaia is female and maintains that she, in conflict to what the prophet and apostles say, has the priesthood, ergo they are either ignorant or lying about it.

GAIA:

With all due respect, Snow -- YOu're entirely welcome to make statements about what YOU beleive;

But please do not presume to interpret or represent me or my thoughts or beliefs.

Anyone who actually wants to know what GAIA thinks or believes, instead of what Snow IMAGINES she believes, is welcome to ask me.

~Gaia

I don't PRESUME to think what you believe. I KNOW exactly what you believe because you have told us. No guessing involved.

You believe that you have the priesthood. The Church, the prophet, the 1st presidency, the Quorum of the 12 Apostles, the other General Authorities, your stake President and your Bishop disagree with you.

You and they cannot both be correct. Since you maintain that YOU, not they are correct, there are only two options to explain their position - either they are lying or they are ignorant of the truth.

I stated your position perfectly.

When did you have your sex change Snow?

The "she" in Gaia's post refered to her, Gaia, not me... but then you probably knew that. :)

[Gaia]

I stated your position perfectly.

GAIA:

With all due respect, Snow, your bias and obvious hostility (evidently) make it impossible for you to state the FACTS correctly, let alone "perfectly", let alone correctly divine and interpret and then state, my thoughts and feelings.

And i would certainly hope that your understanding and obedience to a principle (avoiding misrepresentation of other people) would not depend upon whether someone ELSE (ie Ogre or anybody else) does it.

Y'see, those who actually try to live by the teachings of Jesus, do so regardless of whether anybody else does, or not. :)

~Gaia

[CrimsonKairos]

Snow had you pegged, Gaia, and all the verbal tap-dancing won't distract us from that fact. If you're going to say something, have the guts to stand behind it. B)

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

I stated your position perfectly.

GAIA:

With all due respect, Snow, your bias and obvious hostility (evidently) make it impossible for you to state the FACTS correctly, let alone "perfectly", let alone correctly divine and interpret and then state, my thoughts and feelings.

And i would certainly hope that your understanding and obedience to a principle (avoiding misrepresentation of other people) would not depend upon whether someone ELSE (ie Ogre or anybody else) does it.

Y'see, those who actually try to live by the teachings of Jesus, do so regardless of whether anybody else does, or not. :)

~Gaia

No disrespect, but I stated your position correctly. I note that you are complainiing a lot more than you are pointing out any error of fact from my post. That's because my post is factually accurate.

By the way - that self-righteous nonsense don't work with me neither.

[Gaia]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

I stated your position perfectly.

GAIA:

With all due respect, Snow, your bias and obvious hostility (evidently) make it impossible for you to state the FACTS correctly, let alone "perfectly", let alone correctly divine and interpret and then state, my thoughts and feelings.

And i would certainly hope that your understanding and obedience to a principle (avoiding misrepresentation of other people) would not depend upon whether someone ELSE (ie Ogre or anybody else) does it.

Y'see, those who actually try to live by the teachings of Jesus, do so regardless of whether anybody else does, or not. :)

~Gaia

No disrespect, but I stated your position correctly. I note that you are complainiing a lot more than you are pointing out any error of fact from my post. That's because my post is factually accurate.

GAIA:

No disrespect? Please don't insult my intelligence.

And pardon while i LOL but No, that's because your prejudice and hostility make it clear that it's impossible and futile to reason with you -- One does not attempt to reason with someone who's proven they are incapable of it.

And as i've tried to explain to you several times now, i don't believe in arguing doctrine. I present information and allow people to do with it as they wish -- (even if that means rejecting it), and (hopefully and eventually) as the Spirit directs.

By the way - that self-righteous nonsense don't work with me neither.

GAIA:

LOL again -- Only you are allowed self-righteous nonsense, huh?

I'm sorry you feel that integrity is "self-righteous nonsense"; i strongly disagree. I think we each and all have a responsibility to examine our OWN behavior, before/ instead of making pronouncements on what others "should" and shouldn't believe.

With all due respect, i would like to encourage you to prayerfully study the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood (D&C 121) a few more (hundred) times.....

~Gaia

[Snow]

GAIA:

No disrespect? Please don't insult my intelligence.

And pardon while i LOL but No, that's because your prejudice and hostility make it clear that it's impossible and futile to reason with you -- One does not attempt to reason with someone who's proven they are incapable of it.

And as i've tried to explain to you several times now, i don't believe in arguing doctrine. I present information and allow people to do with it as they wish -- (even if that means rejecting it), and (hopefully and eventually) as the Spirit directs.

I note that for a third time in a row you complain about me but have yet to correct what I said (that you claim I said in error). That is because I am correct and no correct can be made... hence your complaining is pointless.

GAIA:

LOL again -- Only you are allowed self-righteous nonsense, huh?

I'm sorry you feel that integrity is "self-righteous nonsense"; i strongly disagree. I think we each and all have a responsibility to examine our OWN behavior, before/ instead of making pronouncements on what others "should" and shouldn't believe.

With all due respect, i would like to encourage you to prayerfully study the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood (D&C 121) a few more (hundred) times.....

~Gaia

You misunderstand the meaning of self-righteous. I claim no high moral ground. I simply point out that it is absurd for you, who holds a heretical point of view, to chastise me on the grounds that I am not properly following Christ or living up to the oath of priesthood. Now you've done it twice - as if it wasn't gooey enough to have stopped at one.

[rosie321]

snow-doesn't your eye get tired from blinking so much? lol

As far as the priesthood topic goes... I've avoided going here up to this point since I'm most likely going to get in trouble from everybody

Are women upset that they don't have the priesthood. To some degree I would say yes, but not for the reasons mentioned. Many of the ones as discussed already are stereotypical exagerations. Why? Because it involves much trust and power that some men have abused. Not every man loves his wife or the people he serves as Christ does. That creates problems. Women want to serve God and want to have the freedom to do so. They don't want to be unrighteously controlled. Also we did not remember doing anything to make us "lesser" in male eyes.

As far as women recieving the priesthood I find myself asking when will the curse be lifted?

I think men having the priesthood goes back and is established in Genesis. Did Eve have the priesthood before the fall? If so or what one, I'm not sure. Was it like in the temple? She saw God and was in direct communication. Only after the fall and God kicked them out he told Eve in

Genesis 2:16 To the woman he said,

"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;

with pain you will give birth to children.

Your desire will be for your husband,

and he will rule over you."

This was the punishment or God's way of slowing things down a bit so women didn't do it all :).

Many verses in the bible and scriptures for thousands of years continue on this theme of women being submissive, the weaker vessel. These verses have been interpreted and used to hurt women over the years.

1 Peter 3:1 ,7

1st Peter 2:11-23

1st Timothy 8-11-15

The scriptures and many religious leaders have made it clear that women are in a submissive position to the husband (priesthood) Christ. One thing that is sometimes forgotten is that men are to love their wives as Christ loved the church. Its not an unrighteously dominating, selfish relationship as some men have interpreted it throughout history though.

Ok running to take cover now

[a-train]

<div class='quotemain'>

In what way does that statement 'not jive'?

-a-train

Huh?

It doesn't jive in that the scriptures don't say it. Correct me if I am wrong but where in the D&C does it say that the priesthood is conferred upon women?

The D&C is very clear in the who, the how and the what of men and the priesthood. It is equally clear in making no such provisions for women.

Sorry for not replying sooner. Does the Prophet's statement somehow expressly say that the priesthood is to be conferred upon women? Could their possessing the keys with their husbands be something different than an ordination to Priesthood office and subsequent performance of Priesthood ordinances?

I don't believe the Prophet Joseph Smith was in the practice of teaching often certain principles only to relate the contrary to the sisters of the Relief Society. Was he out of his head? Was he losing it? Of course not! Indeed, the meaning of his statements were NOT to the end that women are to be given office in the Priesthood nor to perform ordinances which have need of such.

However, we cannot ignore what it is that he taught. Could he not have been making mention of things that are totally congruent with everything that was revealed through him?

The question becomes: 'How do faithful latter-day saint women possess the keys of the priesthood with their husbands'?

This is a valid question. This is an important question. This is at the krux of this conversation. We are talking about the eternal importance of gender and what makes necessary the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. Women DO have a role in the Priesthood of our God, it is simply NOT one of performance of ordinances. They need no ordination to priesthood office to prepare for temple marriage, nor has it been revealed that they will require such to go on to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, nor to go on to exaltation.

What then is there role? Joseph talks extensively about that in his talk I quoted. It is in the support of their husbands and in the work of charity and love. They and their husbands have before them the task to become one, to cleave one to another and to NONE else. She is to be engaged in the service of God and to counsel and comfort her husband according to his need. And she with him possesses the blessings, privileges, and rights associated with his priesthood authority.

Am I off?

-a-train

[Snow]

Am I off?

-a-train

You mean are you in line with the scriptures, with the prophet, with today's General Authorities, with current official Church publications - the final arbiters of matters doctrinal?

No. That is - yes, you are off.

[rosie321]

For the purpose of this discussion here are some Priesthood questions.

I would appreciate discussion and clarification on the difference between traditional christianity and LDS thought

For LDS is the priesthood is eternal? Did it exist in the premortal life?

Did women have the priesthood in the garden? If so what was it like?

What was lost in the garden? Was that the blessings of the temple?

Has the curse been removed or is that eternal?

(The priesthood ban was removed in 1978 for some though it was considered a curse that would not be removed until all Abels descendents).

[a-train]

<div class='quotemain'>

Am I off?

-a-train

You mean are you in line with the scriptures, with the prophet, with today's General Authorities, with current official Church publications - the final arbiters of matters doctrinal?

No. That is - yes, you are off.

OK, so where am I missing? What portion of my understanding here is not in line with the scriptures, with the prophet, with today's General Authorities, with current official Church publications - the final arbiters of matters doctrinal?

-a-train

[Gaia]

Women DO have a role in the Priesthood of our God, it is simply NOT one of performance of ordinances. They need no ordination to priesthood office to prepare for temple marriage, nor has it been revealed that they will require such to go on to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, nor to go on to exaltation.

GAIA:

HI A-Train; thanks for your thoughts -- all of them; sorry i had to cut some for space.

I would suggest that your quote was only a part of Joseph Smith's thinking, teachings (and actions) on the subject of women and PH; and that there was much more to it.

I have a few questions i 'd like to ask, and references i'd like to quote, if i may:

1) What do you know/ what have you studied about the Anointed Quorum/ Holy Order that Joseph established in the Nauvoo period?

Have you read any of the references i provided here:

http://www.ldstalk.com/forums/index.php? showtopic=9832&st=45 , in Message # 56,

which state that women WERE accepted into and functioned in the Priesthood, in that Anointed Quorum/ Holy Order?

For example:

Joseph and Emma Smith became the first couple to receive the Second Anointing (by which they made their Calling and Election Sure and thus received the Second Comforter) or "fullness of the priesthood."

By this ceremony they were each "anointed & ordained to the highest & holiest order of the priesthood."

PLEASE NOTE: "EACH anointed and ordained", NOT just the husband.

("Meetings of the Anointed Quorum- Journalizings," 28 Sept 1843, also slightly different entry in Joseph Smith diary, 28 Sept 1843, in Faulring, "An American Prophet's Record" p 412.

In The HIstory of the Church (HC), the ordinance by which Hyrum and Mary Fielding Smith received their Second Anointing is recorded as "My brother Hyrum and his wife were blessed, ORDAINED AND ANOINTED."

PLEASE NOTE: "and his wife were blessed, ORDAINED AND ANOINTED."

(Wilford Woodruff, "Historian's Private Journal," 26 Feb 1867, LDS archives; LDS MIllennial Star 22 (7 April 1860): 214; HC 6:46.)

When Brigham Young's own wife received the endowment on 1 Nov 1843, he wrote, "Mary A Young ADMITTED TO THE HIEST ORDER OF THE PRIESTHOOD" [sic] [emphasis added]

PLEASE NOTE: It does NOT say that her husband was admitted, it says that SHE "was admitted".

She did not receive the Second Anointing with him until three weeks later.

(Brigham Young Diary 29 Oct, 1 Nov 1843, copies in Donald R Moorman papers, ARchives, Weber State University; "Meetings of anointed Quorum - Journalizings," 29 Oct 1843; Faulring, "An American Prophet's Record," 444; Ehat, "Joseph Smith's Introduction of the Temple Ordinances," 103.)

PLease NOTE: The popular but erroneous idea that women receive priesthood only through their husbands (in temple marriage or the Second Anointing -- both of which a husband and wife must receive together) -- was NOT the view expressed by the Anointed Quorum's original members, who learned about the endowment directly from Joseph Smith:

Brigham Young's 1843 diary associated the endowment of women with their receiving priesthood. For example: ON 29 Oct 1843, he noted that Thirza Cahoon, Lois Cutler, and Phebe Woodworth were "taken into the ORDER OF THE PRIESTHOOD." That was the day those three women individually received their endowments. They did NOT join with their husbands to receive the Second Anointing until 12 and 15 Nov 1843, respectively.

On 3 Feb 1844, William Clayton's diary noted that Jane Bicknell Young was also endowed and received "into the Quorum of the Priesthood."

(William Clayton diary, 3 Feb 1844, 7 Dec. 1845; in Smith, "An Intimate Chronicle," 125, 193; "Meetings of the anointed quorum" JOseph Smith diary, 3 Feb 1844, in Faulring, "an American Prophet's Record," 444; Ehat, "Hoseph Smith's INtroduction of Temple Ordinances," 103; Buerger, "The Fulness of the Priesthood," 23.)

Joseph Smith's uncle John Smith, a special member of the First Presidency since 1837, member of the Anointed Quorum since 28 Sep 1843, having received four months of special instruction from the Prophet about the Holy Order of the Priesthood during the frequent meetings of the Anointed Quorum --

(Deseret News 1991-1992, "Church Almanac" 46; HC 6:173; Faulring, "An American Prophet's Record" 416; "Meetings of the anointed Quorum," 28 Sept 1843; Ehat, "Joseph Smith's Introduction of Temple Ordinances," 102); --

Subsequently pronounced a patriarchal blessing on Maria Turnbow which specificed that it was THROUGH THE ENDOWMENT CEREMONY THAT WOMEN RECEIVE THE PRIESTHOOD: "Thou shalt have an Endowment in the Lord's house [and] be clothed with the Power of the Holy Priesthood.....

(John Smith patriarchal blesing to Maria Louisa Turnbow, 7 Nov 1845, in William S Harwell, "The Matriarchal Priesthood and Emma's Right to Succession as Prsiding HIgh Priestess and Queen" 7.)

In fact after his ordination as patriarch to the church in 1849, John Smith also described an *ancient* dimension of this female birthright to priesthood:

In his blessing to Caroline Cottam in Mar 1853, he referred to the "Priesthood which Abraham sealed upon his daughters." He also blessed Elizabeth Bean in May 1853: "I seal upon you all the blessings of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and all the PRIESTHOOD THAT WAS SEALED UPON THE DAUGHTERS OF JOSEPH in the land of Egypt..."

He made a similar statement in a blessing to another LDS woman in Nov 1853.

(John Smith patriarchal blessing to Caroline Cottam, 26 Mar 1853, LDS archives; JOhn Smith blessing to Elizabeth Bean, 1 May 1853, Goerge Washington Bean journal, Book 1, 79-80, Archives, Lee Library, BYU, and his blessing to Sophia Pollard, 9 Nov 1853; all are quoted in Irene May Bates, "Transformation of Charisma in the Mormon church , Ph.D. diss., UCLA 1991, 281-82.)

Now, as you say, these men did not speak words lightly, without thinking. As others have said, these statements are NOT from current General Authorities, however, as did say, they certainly do indicate

* * *

2. Did you read the Prophet's address on the Three Orders of Priesthood, here:

Three Grand Orders Of Priesthood, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (TPJS) 322

There are three grand orders of priesthood referred to here. 1st. The King of Shiloam (Salem) had power and authority over that of Abraham, holding the key and the power of endless life. ....

What was the power of Melchizedek? 'Twas not the Priesthood of Aaron which administers in outward ordinances, and the offering of sacrifices. Those holding the fulness of the Melchizedek Priesthood are kings and priests of the Most High God, holding the keys of power and blessings. In fact, that Priesthood is a perfect law of theocracy, and stands as God to give laws to the people, administering endless lives to the sons and daughters of Adam.

It's important to note that LDS officials have said that this includes women as "Queens and Priestesses" -- For example:

That higher state, promised in the eternal marriage covenant, is called becoming kings and queens, priests and priestesses unto the most high God.

(As Women of Faith: Talks Selected from the BYU Women's Conferences [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1989], 117.)

The Holy Priesthood after the order of the Son of God is from eternity to eternity, from everlasting to everlasting, meaning from one existence to the next. It was in operation in the first estate, it blesses lives and seals souls to eternal life in mortality, and it will continue into the world of spirits and beyond, on into the kingdoms of glory wherein dwell kings and queens, priests and priestesses.

(Monte S. Nyman and Charles D. Tate, Jr., eds., Alma, the Testimony of the Word [Provo: BYU Religious Studies Center, 1992], 70.)

Esther was a queen, but all of us have the potential of being kings and queens, priests and priestesses, gods and goddesses. Like Esther we are called to live with faith and with service. We, too, whatever our circumstances, must meet those circumstances as queens and kings who are called and challenged to be here in this hour.

(Chieko N. Okazaki, Aloha! [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1995], 126.)

The main purpose for our mortal existence is that we might obtain tabernacles of flesh and bones for our spirits that we might advance after the resurrection to the fulness of the blessings which the Lord has promised to those who are faithful. They have been promised that they shall become sons and daughters of God, joint heirs with Jesus Christ, and if they have been true to the commandments and covenants the Lord has given us, to be kings and priests and queens and priestesses, possessing the fulness of the blessings of the celestial kingdom.

(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 4: 61.)

Inasmuch as we continue faithful, we shall be those that will be crowned in the presence of God and the lamb. You, my sisters, if you are faithful, will become Queens of Queens, and Priestesses unto the Most High God. These are your callings. We have only to discharge our duties. fn

(Eliza R. Snow and the Woman Question by Jill C. Mulvay Fn, BYU Studies, vol. 16 (1975-1976), Number 2 - Winter 1976 264.)

Judging from such indications as the floor plan of the Nauvoo Temple fn and public statements made about its ordinances, one can conclude that this temple offered a model for understanding eternal human existence that taught and embraced, among other things, the following elements: the premortal existence of all humankind; the plan of salvation that was established before the creation of the world; a creation accomplished by organizing previously existing matter; Adam and Eve and the Fall; the importance of entering into covenants with God to build the kingdom of God on earth; an absolute prohibition of sexual relations outside of marriage; the need to seal husbands and wives to each other that they might receive the promises given to Abraham of eternal posterity, numerous as the sands of the sea; and a promise that all righteous men and women may become kings and priests, queens and priestesses, to rule eternally and become like God.

(Doctrine and the Temple in Nauvoo by Larry C. Porter and Milton V. Backman, Jr. Fn, BYU Studies, vol. 32 (1992), Num. 1 and 2 - Winter and Spring 1992 45.)

We are priestesses and queens, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

(Chieko N. Okazaki, Disciples [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998], 23.)

But, the central purpose of the holy endowment as it relates to the temple program is to build a patriarchal family, and to give those who have been anointed to become kings and priests, and queens and priestesses, the higher ordinances of the priesthood through which they can become patriarchs and matriarchs, or fathers and mothers, spiritually.

(Hyrum L. Andrus, The Divine Patriarchal Order [1972], 13.)

* * *

4. Given the fact that there are three Orders of Priesthood (Aaronic, Melchizedek, and Patriarchal) and the last (ie Patriarchal) is not about outward ordinances, quorums, or offices, but that it IS the Order which contrinues on into Eternity, and is the one upon which the Celestial Kingdom is organized and based, and through which the Faithful become Kings or Queens, Priests or Priestesses -- (See D&C 76, especially

56-70):

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son;

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

Compare with D&C 132, especially 132:20:

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Given all this, my 5th Question is, How do you understand the prophets (and the scriptures) teachings that a woman is to become a "Queen and Priestess" in the Kingdom of God?

A-TRAIN:

What then is there role? Joseph talks extensively about that in his talk I quoted. It is in the support of their husbands and in the work of charity and love. They and their husbands have before them the task to become one, to cleave one to another and to NONE else. She is to be engaged in the service of God and to counsel and comfort her husband according to his need. And she with him possesses the blessings, privileges, and rights associated with his priesthood authority.

Am I off?

-a-train

GAIA:

I think you're right on -- -- Although i would want to respectfully ask: (and i guess this is # 6 and final question *smile* --

What about HER "Priesthood authority"? What about the fact that SHE is referred to as a Priestess in both scripture and modern revelation and teachings? What about the teachings of Joseph Smith and other early leaders who said that women were Priestesses in their own right? What about the women whom JOseph Smith and his uncle (Church Patriarch) John Smith, called as Priestesses and who functioned in the Anointed Quorum/ Holy Order as Priestesses?

Thanks and Blessings to you -- And apologies for the LLLLLLOOOOOONG post -- I hope (and certainly appreciate if you did) persevered and read it all --

~Gaia

[Gaia]

You misunderstand the meaning of self-righteous. I claim no high moral ground. I simply point out that it is absurd for you, who holds a heretical point of view, to chastise me on the grounds that I am not properly following Christ or living up to the oath of priesthood. Now you've done it twice - as if it wasn't gooey enough to have stopped at one.

GAIA:

First: If my "view" (that it was once taught that LDS women had Priesthood ) is heretical, you need to take that up with the people from whom i learned it and whose teachings i quoted -- including Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, (Church) Patriarch John Smith, and others.

Secondly, you misunderstood me -- again:

My point was that you "chastize" me on the basis of questionable doctrine, but do so in a way that is contrary to even more basic, fundamental and essential principles taught by the Ten Commandments and Christ Himself.

Jesus said relatively little about doctrine, but nearly his entire ministry focused on how people should behave, critique their OWN behavior (NOT that of others), and treat each other with respect, kindness, compassion and mercy .

I think i have legitimate reason (D&C 121) to think that a righteous Priesthood holder who honestly believed me to be a heretic would respectfully call me to repentance with compassion and kindness -- not publically criticize, ridicule, denigrate and condemn me.

~Gaia

[Snow]

GAIA:

First: If my "view" (that it was once taught that LDS women had Priesthood ) is heretical, you need to take that up with the people from whom i learned it and whose teachings i quoted -- including Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, (Church) Patriarch John Smith, and others.

That's hardly a legitimate defense. Brigham Young and Joseph Smith are not the final arbiters of orthdoxy. The point is that you, Gaia, hold a position that is not supported by scripture and is in fact contrary to the official position of the Church and the current teachings of the prophet and General Authorities. That makes you, in the case of your view of women and the priesthood, heritical. That position may not have been understood as heretical 150 years ago, but it is today. As an aside, neither Joseph Smith nor Brigham Young would likely qualify for a Temple Recommend today.

If you taught or preached your views in Sacrament meeting, your Bishop would likely correct you. If you persisted in teaching such heresy, the Stake President might well discipline you.

Secondly, you misunderstood me -- again:

My point was that you "chastize" me on the basis of questionable doctrine, but do so in a way that is contrary to even more basic, fundamental and essential principles taught by the Ten Commandments and Christ Himself.

Again - more with the self-righteousness. It just won't work with me. I am not easily manipulated.

Jesus said relatively little about doctrine, but nearly his entire ministry focused on how people should behave, critique their OWN behavior (NOT that of others), and treat each other with respect, kindness, compassion and mercy .

Beyond me correctly identifying your heretical opinion I doubt you can find an instance of me treating you anyone one way or another. You may not like what I point out, it may make you uncomfortable to have your views identified but I am hardly being unkind of unmeriful about it. Truth is neutral. It just is.

I think i have legitimate reason (D&C 121) to think that a righteous Priesthood holder who honestly believed me to be a heretic would respectfully call me to repentance with compassion and kindness -- not publically criticize, ridicule, denigrate and condemn me.

~Gaia

Oh Gaia,

I am not calling you to repentance. I don't think that holding hertical views is sinful - neither did Joseph Smith for that matter. I personally hold a number of unorthodox (read heretical) views. The reason that I am getting after you is because you deny what is obviously true. I, for myself, readily admit when I hold bitrilic views.

[a-train]

Gia,

Ok, well bare with me, that was a lot to look at.

(Question 1) I really must say I have studied relatively little on the subject of the Second Endowment and those who received it, however this would not be because of any lack of interest, but because of the relatively little amount of study material available on the subject. I know enough to say that it was done, that it will be done again, and that each latter-day saint should seek to one day attain the blessings thereof, whether in this life or the next. We all have the promise of one day meeting with the Saviour face to face.

(Question 2) I have read many times President Smith's address concerning the Three Grand Orders of the Priesthood.

(The remaining question(s)) I am of the liberal opinion that every man woman and child with any duty to work in the service and in the name of Jesus Christ having been given the rights, powers, authority, and privilieges thereof possesses some amount of the Priesthood.

However, there is great importance in the Restoration of the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood to Joseph Smith and therefore mankind in this the latter-days. The three-fold mission of the Church in preparing the children of men for the coming of the LORD would be impossible without that restoration. We commonly say that 'the Priesthood was lost' and therefore needed to be restored. This is true, but this does NOT mean that the most basic inalienable agency of man in choosing to serve God was missing, only the authority to perform the ordinances of salvation and lead Zion in the work of God was missing.

Through even the great night of the apostasy, every man woman and child on this earth was capable of having prayers answered, repenting, preparing themselves and their families for entrance into God's presence, and working in charity and in the name of Jesus Christ. Indeed, I believe that the power and authority to breath is God given and is given or taken away the instant God so desires it's installment or removal and no sooner or later.

Knowing that all those engaged in the work of God are called to order and that each must perform his or her particular task with faithfulness and charity, as Joseph was fond of mentioning, we must remember that we are 'many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.' (1 Cor 12:20-21)

Now I believe that the portion of the Priesthood required to perform ordinances such as baptisms is given to the men of this Church as they are worthy. This particular is reserved for men. This does NOT mean that women have nothing to do. This does NOT mean they have no calling, no labor to perform. This does NOT mean they are disallowed to do the work of the kingdom in the name of Jesus Christ.

On the contrary it is the LORD's will 'That your incomings may be in the name of the Lord, that your outgoings may be in the name of the Lord, that all your salutations may be in the name of the Lord, with uplifted hands unto the Most High—' (D&C 109:9)

Further we must remember 'that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.' (2 Nephi 32:9)

-a-train

[Gaia]

GAIA PREVIOUSLY:

First: If my "view" (that it was once taught that LDS women had Priesthood ) is heretical, you need to take that up with the people from whom i learned it and whose teachings i quoted -- including Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, (Church) Patriarch John Smith, and others.

SNOW:

That's hardly a legitimate defense. Brigham Young and Joseph Smith are not the final arbiters of orthdoxy. The point is that you, Gaia, hold a position that is not supported by scripture and is in fact contrary to the official position of the Church and the current teachings of the prophet and General Authorities. That makes you, in the case of your view of women and the priesthood, heritical. That position may not have been understood as heretical 150 years ago, but it is today. As an aside, neither Joseph Smith nor Brigham Young would likely qualify for a Temple Recommend today.

GAIA NOW:

An interesting point.

SNOW:

If you taught or preached your views in Sacrament meeting, your Bishop would likely correct you. If you persisted in teaching such heresy, the Stake President might well discipline you.

GAIA NOW:

And that is exactly the point, Snow -- i did NOT "preach" this in ANY official capacity or Church venue;

I presented it here in a thoroughly NON-official "Gospel Discussion Board" in the context of a discussion on LDS HISTORY. Your dogmatic, authoritarian defense was therefore rather exaggerated and melodramatic.

That you constantly fear and accuse others of manipulation is an interesting comment on your focus (Matthew 12:24).

GAIA PREVIOUSLY:

Jesus said relatively little about doctrine, but nearly his entire ministry focused on how people should behave, critique their OWN behavior (NOT that of others), and treat each other with respect, kindness, compassion and mercy .

SNOW:

Beyond me correctly identifying your heretical opinion I doubt you can find an instance of me treating you anyone one way or another. You may not like what I point out, it may make you uncomfortable to have your views identified but I am hardly being unkind of unmeriful about it. Truth is neutral. It just is.

GAIA:

But you didn't just "identify [my] heretical opinion", Snow. Go back and re-read -- You did considerably more than just say, "Gaia, imo that view is heretical."

GAIA PREVIOUSLY:

I think i have legitimate reason (D&C 121) to think that a righteous Priesthood holder who honestly believed me to be a heretic would respectfully call me to repentance with compassion and kindness -- not publically criticize, ridicule, denigrate and condemn me.

~Gaia

SNOW:

I am not calling you to repentance. I don't think that holding hertical views is sinful - neither did Joseph Smith for that matter. I personally hold a number of unorthodox (read heretical) views. The reason that I am getting after you is because you deny what is obviously true. I, for myself, readily admit when I hold bitrilic views.

GAIA:

1) With all due respect, i'm afraid i have to question your honesty both with me and (if you really mean what you said there) with yourself, about how you have participated in this discussion. If you had merely called me to repentance, i would not have disputed with you; but you denigrated, lectured and misrepresented me and my position, impugned my motives and my spirituality. In short, you attacked. Perhaps that's your style here, i haven't been here long enough to know; but i would respectfully and sincerely ask you to examine that style and critique it as you would someone else's .

2) My point (above) was that while behaving thusly, you were hardly someone to lecture me on what the Priesthood is and is not.

3) I understand that you think my thoughts are heretical. I thank you for what i assume is your concern over my eternal welfare (and that of others who may read my thoughts and be "led astray"). I assure you that i have not and would not represent what i've written here as official, current LDS doctrine, to anyone.

With that, i think this discussion is over. I wish you well, and the continued guidance of the Lord and His Spirit.

~Gaia